The well-trodden path of radio shopping

[NateHanson]

In 2.5 years, I have now killed two M72 radios. The first was replaced under warranty, and the replacement radio is in it's death throes. Both have failed exactly the same way - the power/volume knob loses the ability to turn the radio off.

After having an M32 that lasted almost 15 years I was extremely brand loyal. I've used a number of Standard Horizon Radios in the past 10 years, and had more problems with them than with my ICOMs. However, this knob problem is trying my loyalty.

The replacement to the M72 (predictably named M73), still has that blasted power knob, so as much as I love the battery life and form factor, the 73 is definitely out.

The M92 (with GPS) has no power knob, and addresses all the shortcomings of the Standard Horizon GPS-equipped handheld (which had too small a battery, a poor display, and reports speeds rounded to the nearest knot!). So, I'm considering the M92. Anyone have any experience with this one?

Thanks, Nate

[EEL]

Nate:

Is the failure that the knob will turn OK, but the switch when you first turn the knob has failed in that you can turn the radio on, but cannot turn it off? That is an unusual failure it seems to me, but I'd bet it could be fixed by a marine electronics repair shop. If the knob is frozen, that would seem more understandable, but should not happen if rinsed after use whenever possible.

A radio with no knobs would be ideal for a marine VHF application it seems to me. Newer radios like the Icom 92 and Standard 300 going in that direction.

I do not like jacks for mics, etc. either as just one more failure point.

While DSC is the way of the future, I'm not sure it makes sense to have a VHF handheld with a display adequate for use as a GPS unit as folks tend to use GPS units while kayaking. Not sure they will ever be made that way since the kayak market is really not what these radios are made for, but perhaps the drive to have a better gadget will compel it.

What issues and models of Standard-Horizon caused your grief?

Ed Lawson

[leong]

In 2.5 years, I have now killed two M72 radios. The first was replaced under warranty, and the replacement radio is in it's death throes. Both have failed exactly the same way - the power/volume knob loses the ability to turn the radio off.

Yes, see http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/9688-icom-battery/

The West Marine protection plan is a bargain for just under $30.

[NateHanson]

Ed, the knob clicks as though it's in the off position, but the radio doesn't turn off. The knob is stiffer to turn than it was when new, but still turns without trouble. I submerse it in fresh water and work the knob after every use, but that still means it spends a lot of time damp with saltwater in my vest during a day- or multi-day paddle. That seems to be more than this knob can handle.

My M32 had no knobs, and the M92 also has no knobs. I think I'll give that a shot.

The West marine replacement plan isn't a bad idea. Does it add a year to the warranty? Problem is, these radios are about $50 cheaper from someplace other than West Marine, like Hamilton Marine, and the Icom's come with a 3-year warranty now. So I'm on the fence about paying $50 premium to WM, and then $30 for their protection plan. Then if they give you a new radio, it's not covered by the original warranty anymore, so you pay another $30 for the new warranty? Granted you're getting longer coverage, but now you've paid $110 extra to insure a $200 product. If the thing is guaranteed to fail (which lately mine seem to be) then obviously it's worth paying 50% of the purchase price to have it replaced. But I'm stuck on this silly notion that I should be able to get many years of my MARINE vhf. Bah!

[John Martinsen]

Time for a case? https://store.aquapac.net/explore-product-range/handheld-vhf-radio-cases.html

[jason]

Time for a case? https://store.aquapac.net/explore-product-range/handheld-vhf-radio-cases.html

Nothing but problems with aquapac cases. They seem to grab and hold on to water. I have had two and an open ziplock seems to be better at keeping water out.

[leong]

Problem is, these radios are about $50 cheaper from someplace other than West Marine, like Hamilton Marine, and the Icom's come with a 3-year warranty now.

Nate,

My M72 (now M73) seems to last only about 2 years … I’m a heavy user (almost every day). I don’t use a dry case because of added hassle (and the potential of needing to use it very fast like to warn away a speedboat coming at me).

With the West Marine protection plan the store gives me a new unit immediately, no questions asked. With regard to the $50 savings from buying it other than at West Marine here’s how I look at it.

Year 0: purchase $200 + $30 for protection plan

Year 2: free and immediate store replacement plus $30 for new protection plan

Year 4: free and immediate store replacement plus $30 for new protection plan

Year 6 etc.

So I get a new radio every two years and my average yearly protection cost is $15/year. Any initial saving of $50 from buying it elsewhere washes out pretty quickly.

I’m not sure, but I think w/o the protection plan Icom’s warrantee requires that you to send the unit back to the factory and wait for them to send you a new unit (or perhaps a refurbished unit … I don’t know). When my VHF requires replacement I want it to be ASAP.

[EEL]

Seems the take away from this is that if you are on the water a great deal, then consider yourself lucky if your radio lasts more than a couple of years. Actually that is consistent with what I have heard from others whose day/weekend job is kayaking. Not surprising since thet designed/intended use for these radios is not for frequent immersion and/or getting wacked by waves when worn exposed on a PFD.

For we weekend warriors they can last a long time with modest care.

Nate, so you have to take the battery of to turn the radio off and on? Might be result of water intrusion, but more likely premature switch failure.

Ed Lawson

[leong]

Seems the take away from this is that if you are on the water a great deal, then consider yourself lucky if your radio lasts more than a couple of years. Actually that is consistent with what I have heard from others whose day/weekend job is kayaking. Not surprising since thet designed/intended use for these radios is not for frequent immersion and/or getting wacked by waves when worn exposed on a PFD.

For we weekend warriors they can last a long time with modest care.

Nate, so you have to take the battery of to turn the radio off and on? Might be result of water intrusion, but more likely premature switch failure.

Ed Lawson

It's a tough job paddling almost every day but someone's gotta do it.

BTW, my ICOM M72 got stuck in the on state even though I could turn the volume control to click off. After removing and replacing the battery the radio still went back to the on state.

[NateHanson]

Well, now my radio turns off again. Of course it fixed itself the day after I placed an order for the M92. I could stand to have a spare radio anyways, and I'm curious to see how I like the GPS-equipped model. I carry a GPS only for emergency position finding; never used it for navigation. I've never turned on the one I have, except to test it, and that takes a while, so I think for my purposes, having my position reported right on the radio (and broadcast through DSC) makes a lot more sense than carrying an old, rarely used GPS.

Of course all this is simply justification for the fact that I just bought a radio that it turns out I didn't really need.

Here's hoping that getting rid of the knob gains me a few years of use!

As to the aquapac suggestion, I think there's a lot of sense in protecting your radio, but I've had no luck with those. They wear out and leak very quickly, and then all they do is swadle your electronic device in a greenhouse of steaming brine. Plus, I just can't stand the form factor. Anything living in my PFD needs to be sleek and comfortable, and those bags are anything but.

[lhunt]

I'll put in one more plug for preventing (and removing) salt buildup. I use Salt-away, maybe soap would work as well, but I figure for the little bit I'm using the expense isn't really an issue.

You would think that flushing with plain water would get rid of the salt but I've seen that white buildup on things that I wash every time and very well, with hot water. Depends on what the item is made of. If you treat it properly from the time the thing is new, it only takes a second (be sure to work it into the knob by turning the knob with the stuff on it). Salt-Away, unlike soap, doesn't need to be thoroughly rinsed, so that saves a little time.

If the buildup is already there it's hard to get rid of. This link recommends a pretty lengthy once-a-day-for-a-while treatment - if you're not using the radio right now it might be a good time to try it. Otherwise it's likely to freeze up again. Work the knob with the Salt-Away on it.

I've had my M72 almost 4 seasons, use it every time (2/wk most seasons) with no drybag, and no sign of problems yet. I have a camera that had to be replaced due to corrosion that first appeared after just a couple of months. I've been treating the replacement with Salt-Away for 2 years now with no sign of trouble.

Sounds like an ad, I know, but I'm just sharing what worked for me...

Lisa

[leong]

I'll put in one more plug for preventing (and removing) salt buildup. I use Salt-away, maybe soap would work as well, but I figure for the little bit I'm using the expense isn't really an issue.

Ha, ha. Speaking of the devil (Salt-away, not Lisa) today I bought a similar product called Salt-Off. I forgot to bring my spray bottle of Salt-away to my current location and needed a product to clean my fishing reel which was jamming with salt. I hope this much less expensive Salt-Off product works as well.

-Leon

[NateHanson]

As a follow-up, I've used the M92D a few times now, and I'm pleased. It is certainly larger than the M72, but it's also quite a bit lighter. (I guess that metal case weighs something on the M72.) No nobs, and fully plastic case, which I like.

The M92 has menus and programable soft keys. You can set those 4 soft keys to do whatever you want, so you don't need to enter the menus for routine functions. I haven't navigated with it (and likely won't), but numeral entry is good with this interface, so entering a waypoint would probably take about a minute. Position is displayed right on screen at all times.

Nate

[John Martinsen]

I just picked up a M73 to replace an older radio on which the contacts corroded too much to charge. Hope it doesn't suffer the same issues you've had with yours. Going to keep it stashed in the day hatch for the most part. Also think I will vacuum seal it in a foodsaver bag, and make sure there is a notch cut into the plastic for easy access.

[tvcrider]

As a follow-up, I've used the M92D a few times now, and I'm pleased. It is certainly larger than the M72, but it's also quite a bit lighter. (I guess that metal case weighs something on the M72.) No nobs, and fully plastic case, which I like.

The M92 has menus and programmable soft keys. You can set those 4 soft keys to do whatever you want, so you don't need to enter the menus for routine functions. I haven't navigated with it (and likely won't), but numeral entry is good with this interface, so entering a waypoint would probably take about a minute. Position is displayed right on screen at all times.

Nate

Nate,

How do you find the form factor of the M92D? I have never seen the unit in person, but I have heard it is "huge" when compared to the ICOM M88/72/73. One kayaker commented that they would never want to carry a radio that large on their pfd (can't remember where). The same person also mentioned that the text on the M92D display is quite small and for we older geezers very difficult to read.

[Suz]

I just picked up a M73 to replace an older radio on which the contacts corroded too much to charge. Hope it doesn't suffer the same issues you've had with yours. Going to keep it stashed in the day hatch for the most part. Also think I will vacuum seal it in a foodsaver bag, and make sure there is a notch cut into the plastic for easy access.

Vacuum sealing... I wondered about vacuum sealing things like this. Do things work without ever being in the air?

Why not just put it in one of the dry bags made for VHF? They are made for it and then it can be opened and aired out. Sure it will fail but in the meantime it would keep most of the water out and in the meantime remain easily used.

Personally I have found that when storing things in a vacuum sealed bag and then keeping in my pocket, the seal always fails and then the stuff is sitting in the water.

[John Martinsen]

Suz, thanks for the heads up about the vacuum sealing, was going to seal an electronic key fob and keep it in my pfd. Car is too smart to lock with the electronic key fob in it, have to hide it or take it with. Might give it a go with the vhf as it's waterproof anyways, and I almost never use except as a weather radio. Have a few hard cases for my phone\wallet\keys but I never trust dry bags with electronics. Not a problem to drag along a case in the sea kayak, but harder on the sup or surf boat.

[Dan Foster]

I use a vacuum-sealed remote control in my PFD when I bring a bow-mounted action camera out in the surf. Works great, and no leaks! If it was really expensive, I might seal the sealed item in a second vacuum bag. I don't see any reason why a GPS or radio wouldn't mind being sealed up - they don't generate heat that needs to be dissipated. I wouldn't seal or bag something that had a fan, heatsink, or cooling vents.

If you're worried about dampness, they make indicating dessicant that changes color when exposed to moisture. Or you can seal some dry rice against the backside of your VHF and it will absorb any moisture that works its way into the bag. The lack of vacuum seal at the end of a paddle should alert you to a leak.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Dan F

[Suz]

Suz, thanks for the heads up about the vacuum sealing, was going to seal an electronic key fob and keep it in my pfd. Car is too smart to lock with the electronic key fob in it, have to hide it or take it with. Might give it a go with the vhf as it's waterproof anyways, and I almost never use except as a weather radio. Have a few hard cases for my phone\wallet\keys but I never trust dry bags with electronics. Not a problem to drag along a case in the sea kayak, but harder on the sup or surf boat.

Hey John,

We too have electronic fobs for the car. We make a copy of the valet key and put it on a cord and wear it around our neck. That locks the car but doesn't drive the car. We lock the electronic fob in the car on day trips. When taking the key with me on a multi day trip, I put it in a pelican case (with a gasket) along with the phone. I never trust cases/ boxes and such so the phone is always in a life proof case along with the pelican case.

Suz

[NateHanson]

Nate,

How do you find the form factor of the M92D? I have never seen the unit in person, but I have heard it is "huge" when compared to the ICOM M88/72/73. One kayaker commented that they would never want to carry a radio that large on their pfd (can't remember where). The same person also mentioned that the text on the M92D display is quite small and for we older geezers very difficult to read.

Joe,

It is definitely larger than the M72, but it is lighter (and same battery capacity). I carry it in the belly-pouch of my Astral Green Jacket, so I don't notice the size. I am sensitive to the weight of stuff, because my vests can end up weighing quite a bit, so I appreciate that factor. I will be using a Sea Wolf vest this year, and expect I'll store the radio in the same place on that jacket. The M72 would probably fit in the clamshell pocket if the antenna is folded, but I'd rather save that space for organizing all my other junk anyways, so at least for me, the larger size isn't an issue.

My M72 has alternately turned on/off properly since my last update, and other times can't be switched off. I got a return authorization number from Icom when I first started this thread, and finally got around to sending it in last week. We'll see how they treat me. At first contact they seemed inclined to take care of me, but I did take quite a while to get it to them, and it's a 2 year-old replacement of a radio originally bought 3 years ago.

[tvcrider]

Joe,

It is definitely larger than the M72, but it is lighter (and same battery capacity). I carry it in the belly-pouch of my Astral Green Jacket, so I don't notice the size. I am sensitive to the weight of stuff, because my vests can end up weighing quite a bit, so I appreciate that factor. I will be using a Sea Wolf vest this year, and expect I'll store the radio in the same place on that jacket. The M72 would probably fit in the clam-shell pocket if the antenna is folded, but I'd rather save that space for organizing all my other junk anyways, so at least for me, the larger size isn't an issue.

Nate,

We are pretty much the same page. I just purchased a 2014 Astral Sea Wolf. The ICOM M88/72/73 will fit in the clam-shell pocket if you poke the antenna out between the dual zippers. The antenna extends approximately 3/4" of out the pocket. I am not sure what the "belly-pouch" is you refer to, same as the clam-shell?

Fwiw, the M92D may have the same battery capacity as the M72/73, but ICOM list 8-10 hours of operation on a full charge. I believe the the M72/73 is rated up to 14-16 hours.

[tvcrider]

Joe,

It is definitely larger than the M72, but it is lighter (and same battery capacity). I carry it in the belly-pouch of my Astral Green Jacket, so I don't notice the size. I am sensitive to the weight of stuff, because my vests can end up weighing quite a bit, so I appreciate that factor. I will be using a Sea Wolf vest this year, and expect I'll store the radio in the same place on that jacket. The M72 would probably fit in the clam-shell pocket if the antenna is folded, but I'd rather save that space for organizing all my other junk anyways, so at least for me, the larger size isn't an issue.

Nate,

We are pretty much on the same page. I just purchased a 2014 Astral Sea Wolf. The ICOM M88/72/73 will fit in the clam-shell pocket if you poke the antenna out between the dual zippers. The antenna extends approximately 3/4" of out the pocket. I am not sure what the "belly-pouch" is you refer to, same as the clam-shell?

Fwiw, the M92D may have the same battery capacity as the M72/73, but ICOM list 8-10 hours of operation on a full charge. I believe the the M72/73 is rated up to 14-16 hours.

Nate,

I got it. The belly-pouch = the hand-warmer area on an Astral pfd.

Reference you posting on pnet: http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1602337#1602469

Thanks.

[NateHanson]

Icom replied that they'll cover parts and labor for replacing my knob. They say the battery isn't holding a charge (which I hadn't noticed), so I'm paying for that to be replaced.

I stand reassured by Icom's willingness to stand behind their product, even slightly outside of warranty, and that makes me happy that I've bought another Icom as a replacement. However, I think the M72 turns out to be a poor design for kayakers, because the knob doesn't hold up well to frequent salty exposure. A plastic-case radio with no knobs (like the M24, M36 or the M92) is probably a better idea for anyone who really uses their radio IN the water the way we do, and I'll stick to those criteria in the future.

[EEL]

Nate:

I believe you are quite correct regarding no knobs as better for kayaking. Yaesu/Standard and Icom both stand behind their radios well in terms of warranty and repair. I believe they all have a three year warranty for water intrusion damage.

The point about the battery is interesting. I suspect you, as most people, use the radio far, far more for receiving than transmitting and you will not notice the declining capacity of the battery to "hold" a charge after a few years if the radio is only used for receiving. Generally there is a specific number of charging cycles these batteries will be good for and some say there is a outside limit in terms of time as well. As a rule three years is about all these batteries are good for in terms of having their rated capacity when used regularly.

Now I know folks will post their batteries still charge and the radio still works great after more than three years, but that does not mean the battery is fine. Maybe if you don't use or charge the radio often. The real crunch comes when you transmit with the radio and if the battery is old or has been through many charging cycles, it simply will not have the "power" to meet specs. For kayakers the early failure or diminished transmit capacity could come at a bad time during a bad day and make thing even worse.

Ed Lawson

[rfolster]

The problem that I have with radios without knobs is that is very cumbersome to chang the volume. I find that I have to lock the keypad to keep from accidentally changing channels or something. If I need to increase the volume, I need to unlock the keypad, go into a menu or two, change the volume, then lock the keypad again. I have also found that if I have the radio in my "radio pocket" on my PFD, I have to take it out to do all this. I so much prefer a knob that I can quickly turn up or down. Unfortunately, the DCS radios all use button volume control instead of knob. Cathy's radio has a volume knob and it has never gotten stuck. Simple maintenance seems to work really well.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Bearded Recluse