josko Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I think I'd like to try a wing blade. I've been putting in time, and can now average 4.5 kts over 18 nautical miles on a favorite route with a Bahiya/Werner Ikelos. I think my forward stroke is decent (but hey, who doesn't). (A few weeks back I did 59 miles/2 days and wasn't totally wasted at the end.)I have no idea how to pick a wing blade and what to do with it on the water. Should I call CRCkKand see if I can get a lesson along with help picking out a paddle? Are there other avenues to get me started? Or should i just buy one and get on with it?Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sylvester Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Go see Ed at the Kayak Learning Center on the beach in Beverly Mass. He is the wing and ski go to guy in this area. He has a website that you can find.....http://kayaklearningcenter.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 If you plan to go in the water when you get there watch the tides as the beach is very dry at low tide, even when away from the current state of things. Years ago there was another launch at Tuck Point which should still be there. It's "around the corner" with enough on-street parking for one to a few paddlers (at least weekdays) that is much better behaved tidally, though straight across from Salem Willows and thus subject to a bit more traffic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Josko,I agree with Paul about Ed Duggan’s Kayak Learning Center. You could even go there and watch some really fast paddlers at the weekly Tuesday afternoon races.If you don’t mind parting with a lot of money you can’t go wrong with Epic paddles http://www.epickayaks.com/products/paddles/mid-wing. I’ve used the full carbon mid wing for about 12 years and love it. Besides Epic, the racer’s favorites seem to be Stellar paddles http://www.stellarkayaks.com/china/Paddles.html, Onno paddles http://www.onnopaddles.com/ and Braca-Sport paddles http://www.braca-sport.com/.Watch this video http://www.superiorsurfsystems.com/a/j/component/content/article/25-video-blog/80-paddling-with-zsolt-szadovszki-a-demonstration-of-kayak-stroke-technique and if you can copy his stroke exactly you won’t need anything else. Seriously, though, I would just go buy a wing paddle and play with it yourself, perhaps taking a lesson soon after.Epic has a pretty decent forward stroke video and Brent Reitz has an even better video. Both cover the wing paddle a little.-Leon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 With a 'regular' paddle, we got blade area, shaft length, and bent/straight shaft. What additional parameters apply to wing blades? Are there different degrees of cupping? Are some blade shapes somehow more aggressive, less forgiving, more suited for beginners, rough water, etc? I don't mind spending the $$$ on a good blade, but just don't know what to look for or how to size it to me. I went through the Epic 'blade picker' software, and it's telling me I want the 'Mid-Wing'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lhunt Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 With a 'regular' paddle, we got blade area, shaft length, and bent/straight shaft. What additional parameters apply to wing blades? Are there different degrees of cupping? Are some blade shapes somehow more aggressive, less forgiving, more suited for beginners, rough water, etc? I don't mind spending the $$$ on a good blade, but just don't know what to look for or how to size it to me. I went through the Epic 'blade picker' software, and it's telling me I want the 'Mid-Wing'.You still definitely need to worry about shaft length. My Epic paddle is sized 205 - 215 cm and I set it at 210. Like with a regular paddle, the length depends on the width of the boat and the angle of your stroke. It seems like there are fashions in length - for a while everybody was going shorter and shorter then they started increasing it a little. With an adjustable paddle you can experiment and take videos to see if you are getting the paddle all the way in at the start of the stroke without bending forward to do it.I don't think I've ever seen a racer with a bent shaft - it adds weight and arguably you can get just as good ergonomics with a good stroke. Blades come in different sizes, and that's going to be a personal preference. I switched from mid-wing to small-mid-wing when I had some forearm problems, but maybe now that I've gotten my stroke a little better (and am a little stronger) I could move up, dunno. The difference is extremely small, and it seems like it takes hours of concentrated experimentation to feel it. The goal is to lock your paddle into the water so that it doesn't move back during the stroke. If you can do that with a small paddle, a bigger paddle will actually slow you down (extra weight and windage, etc.)I wouldn't get a paddle for beginners, if there is such a thing - I would get the real thing and let it inform your stroke. I don't think there are any rough water differences. Wing paddles are quite supportive during the stroke and that's mostly what you use for balance in rough water. If you are worried about breaking the paddle, that would make you get something other than full carbon, I guess, but I like my paddle light.The Epic paddles come with different stiffness of shafts - you want the more forgiving of the two (the burgundy-colored one). The stiffer one is for sprinting.Which of the wing paddles that Leon listed are better for you? You just have to try them out. Borrow if you can for some time. But I found that my stroke kept changing well after I bought the paddle, and probably it is changing to get the most out of that particular paddle. Bottom line, I think they are all good :-)Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 In addition to what Lisa mentioned is the twist of the wing's blade. Rather then me pontificating on the subject, take a look at Wesley’s reviews of wing paddles here http://globalsurfski.se/2010/03/23/wesley-echols-wing-paddles-review/. In particular, look at the video describing twist and how it affects your stroke. Also, there’s an interview here http://northcoastkayaks.com/2013/01/20/exact-specifications-of-fast-epic-paddles-with-greg-barton-interview/ where Greg Barton says, “Epic blades have a teardrop shape with a relatively high amount of twist.” It’s hard to disagree with the master but I think the twist of my Epic wing is about medium.Gotta go right now, my wing and kayak are patiently waiting on the car.-Leon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) Watch this video http://www.superiorsurfsystems.com/a/j/component/content/article/25-video-blog/80-paddling-with-zsolt-szadovszki-a-demonstration-of-kayak-stroke-technique and if you can copy his stroke exactly you won’t need anything else.Looks really nice to me. But I have question about that video, Leon.It's hard to be sure without slowing it down, but it looks to me like Zsolt is *not* burying the blade fully before it travels backwards.If so, does that mean I was taught wrong (which is quite possible) or is that feature particularly for wings? Looking at how smooth his stroke is, I am inclined to believe that burying the blade should indeed take a back seat to the overall dynamics. Fully burying before any backwards motion might interrupt the smoothness and efficiency -- put kind of a kink in the motion.Make any sense?--David Edited June 25, 2013 by djlewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 David,Well, the theory of burying the paddle applies to both wing and flat Euro paddles. Here’s what Greg Barton said in a discussion about the wing paddle forward stroke:“The most important thing at the catch is to get the blade in the water as quickly as possible and bury the entire blade – but no more than that – before you start pulling back on it.”Okay, so that’s the theory. Everyone says, it but I’m not sure that it’s practiced by all. It looks to me that top racing paddlers do start to pull back before the blade is fully buried. Maybe there’s an unwritten tradeoff: Since there’s no power while the blade is going down, perhaps, there’s an optimal distance to bury the paddle before pulling back (please don’t tell Greg or Zsolt that I said this). Or perhaps our eyes are deceiving us.There’s an old thread http://www.nspn.org/forum/topic/8532-to-pause-or-not-to-pause/?hl=pause that I started which has a lot of discussion about this topic.-Leon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Yow -- now I remember that discussion. I guess I really should read it in detail. Thanks.Your observation about an optimal tradeoff makes sense. But looking at the Zsolt video, I see an incredibly smooth blade trajectory which, it seems to me, is an important part of his stroke's effectiveness. So there is no pause or "kink" in his stroke at all, just a smooth "shape". If that's so, the the issues become what is the optimal "shape" (including the placement with respect to the water). There's probably also an invisible aspect of shape, namely the varying forces of hands on the shaft, as driven by forces in the body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 Took my first lesson with Wesley Echols and got to try a couple wing blades, from the (to me) benign Stellar wing to some high-twist esoteric stuff that Wesley races with. He was absolutely great at explaining the tradeoffs, differences and associated learning curves, as well as really influencing my forward stroke. I think I understand the design philosophy and tradeoffs, now own a Stellar wing and am planning to put serious time in with it before upgrading to one of the higher-twist blades in time.A big mistake was trying out his SEI surfski, which had the following epiphanies:1. I can actually paddle this thing and stay upright!2. My Bahiya now feels like a barge, but the time spent balancing it in conditions was absolutely well-spent.3. I want one in the worst way.4. I really hope a surf ski doesn't yank me away from kayaking.5. I gotta find a surfski community on the Cape or SE Mass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted August 26, 2013 Author Share Posted August 26, 2013 So my Stellar wing really hasn't done much for my 'around Naushon island' time. I'm still at just under 4 hrs for 18 nautical miles. However, it feels more yielding than the Ikelos, and I'm wondering if I should be experimenting with a larger wing blade. If anything, I take more of a beating with the Ikelos than with the Stellar wing. I feel the eing blade wants me to push cadence beyond what I'm comfortable with.What would be the 'next' wing for me to try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Try NESurfski -- and you'll meet a nice Englishman who used to paddle with NSPN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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