Explorer vs Legend

[markstephens]

The discussion about the OI reminded me to ask this august group their opinions/experiences about the NDK Romany Explorer vs the Seaward Nigel Foster Legend. I've read that the Legend "paddles like an Explorer HV", but is better made, lighter, etc.

What are the performance differences one should know about if one really likes how the Explorer paddles, but is considering the Legend?

Thanks,

Mark

[markstephens]

Since no one responded to this post (except dear Suzanne who sent me some info via email) I guess nobody on this thread knows much about it. In case anybody else is interested in the topic, I ran across a great thread on paddling.net on this very subject:

http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread...vice&tid=327640

[eneumeier]

Mark,

The lack of discussion may be due to few people paddling Legends around here.

Liz N.

[djlewis]

>The lack of discussion may be due to few people paddling

>Legends around here.

Indeed. How about we talk Aquanaut, since there are a number of those in the vicinity, and soon to be one more. Jim Wilson, who tracks boat characteristics more assiduously than any other amateur I know (and, in full disclosure, owns a Naut) sez, in the same paddling.net thread...

> If you have the opportunity, you should try Valley boats. The model

> most competitive with and Explorer or Legend is the Aquanaut.

>

> The Aquanaut feels quite different than either of the others. It is

> notably faster than an Explorer - it has a longer narrower

> waterline. The Naut has lower decks than either a Legend or

> Explorer. It is a fully soft chined boat. (The Legend is hard edge

> hard chine, the Explorer is soft edge hard chine - or as NDK terms

> it 'modified hard chine.') The Aquanaut's transition from primary to

> secondary is seamless.

>

> The Aquanaut has lighter primary than an Explorer but more solid

> than a Legend. It requires a lean to turn well, but is so easy to

> lean as to be effortless.

Explorer owners, consider a Nordic Blue to be thrown at your feet!

--David.

[markstephens]

My take is the Explorer can make even an average paddler look like an expert. It is very forgiving, very stable and real easy to roll. (Shut up, Adam!) Also why people love it for rough water. It seems like the Legend, and to a lesser extent the Aquanaut, requires more technique and attention to the boat to paddle well in the same conditions. Some would go so far as to say that where the Explorer might be boring to paddle the Legend would be fun. By extension, where it gets really interesting in an Explorer might be downright terrifying in a Legend.

I wonder if you took a kevlar Legend and added 20 pounds of sand ballast if you would end up with an Explorer.

[djlewis]

In my limited time in an Aquanaut, I'd say you are partly right -- it takes more attention to technique in some ways, especially turning. You have to edge it decisively, and with the low primary, that's a bit riskier. I actually capsized once while edging for a bow rudder. But I think I will adjust to that.

I don't have much experience with either Explorer or Aquanaut on lumpy water, but I did get a taste the other day. After working in sheltered areas of Gloucester Harbor, we hit a patch of significant chop on the way home. I was astounded -- the Aquanaut actually seemed more stable and faster in the chop than in flat water. It may have been a relativity illusion, but it felt terrific, really solid and fun. And when we left the chop, it was back to its former self, a nice boat with quite low primary, not a problem, but not as much fun. (BTW, what's wrong with fun? The fun was the sense of feeling rock solid and actually faster in the chop; not the fun of a roller coaster.)

Analyzing later (and processing with Jim Wilson) I concluded that the low primary and smooth transition from primary to secondary accounted for the effect I felt, at least in part. Waves are nature's way of edging your boat. When chop hits the Naut, the boat reacts with very smoothly and with little effort needed to stay balanced, just the converse of what happens when the paddler does the edging.

Seems to me (Nordic Blue being flung here) that the Explorer's relative high primary is a bit of compromise with performance on behalf of the beginner. That makes it (and the predecessor Romany 16) a suitable teaching boat, which I understand Dennis was after. The Naut on the other hand is a ~not~ a boat for beginners; no such compromise.

Of course, I speak theoretically, rather than from much actual experience. I'd be interested to hear from Explorer owners on this -- haven't actually put in the order for the Naut yet. ;-))) Suzanne, you've paddled both quite a bit (The Aquanaut hull is the same as Argonaut, right?) but picked Explorer in the end.

--David.

[Guest guest]

Mark,David,

I have an Explorer. I've never paddled the Legend but looking at the hull will tell you they come from two very different design ideas. They are nothing alike. The HV or LV versions of the Explorer are deck modifications and don't affect the paddling qualities, just help make a better fit for padders size.

I was determined not to buy an Explorer and went to buy the Aquanaut. I paddled both, one after the other, back and forth, and was impressed, ( like everyone else ) at the greater ability to hold the Explorer very high on edge which allows it to turn quickly. I preferred the lower deck on the Explorer to the higher, more voluminous deck on the Aquanaut.(no I'm not confusing it with the Argonaut, which is very large)

While I like the way the Explore paddles, the lamination technology is very primitive. The one advantage this has is, a blow to the hull creates a smaller, more localized hole or crack. Laminations with Kevlar or Diolene (a polyester cloth) will flex and maybe just take a scratch where an NDK with take a hole. However, a more sever blow to these same high tech lay-ups will cause large areas of bruising and delaminating rather than the neat, clean and easy to repair hole in the NDK.

When I started paddling whitewater 30 years ago we only had composite boats we built in our club molds. We used Kevlar or nylon always in the lamination. Most people don't realize that a Kevlar boat is still a fiberglass lay-up with a layer of Kevlar..not a Kevlar only lamination. Whitewater boats must take a beating every time you paddle them, they need to flex, but after 6 months to a year, a light weight Kevlar whitewater boat was ready for the dumpster.

Plastic changed all that for whitewater and also for a rock hopping sea kayak. I have the longer plastic Necky Elaho that came with a rudder that I removed. I find this boat as maneuverable as the Explorer yet it tracks very well with no skeg or rudder. I just doesn't ''feel'' as good to paddle as the Explorer, it doesn't move through the waves and open water with the same nice ''feel''. But, because I bought the Elaho used for $700 and because its unbreakable, this gives me the courage to try things I'd not do in the $2500 Explore. I've learned more about sea kayaking and rocks in the Elaho in the past year than many years of being more conservative in a glass boat.

[Brian Nystrom]

I've only paddled a Legend briefly, but I have a lot of experience in its lower volume sibling, the Silhouette. While it's fun to paddle on relatively flat water, I found it to be a real handful in the rough stuff, particularly in quartering/following seas. It was difficult to relax in, which makes it tiring to paddle, both physically and psychologically. Although I haven't spent a lot of time in an Explorer or Romany either, what paddling I've done in them leads me to believe that they're as solid and comfortable feeling in rough water as my ol' reliable Pintail, my favorite rough water boat. Both are downright docile on flat water.

[Brian Nystrom]

Your comments are consistent with the "conventional wisdom" about layups that's often debated, but may not be true. For example, if you check out these two video clips, you'll see exactly how durable a fiberglass cloth layup can be:

http://eteamz.active.com/paddleshop/videos/MVI_11sm.MOV

http://eteamz.active.com/paddleshop/videos/hammer2.MOV

The hull that was tortured in this test is a lightweight layup of fiberglass cloth and epoxy. It can be flexed in a manner that would crack a fiberglass matt/polyester resin layup and its impact resistance is obviously far higher. I think it's pretty safe to say that impacts that would hole a typical Brit' hull would have little effect on this one.

The dimensions on this boat are 18' 9" x 20.75", it weighs between 33 and 50 pounds (depending on layup and outfitting) and costs $1750 in fiberglass or $2000 in Kevlar. I have no idea how this boat handles, but if Patrick ever decides to build an Explorer clone, watch out! Can you imagine a 40 pound glass kayak that bounces off rocks like a plastic boat, handles like an Explorer and costs $1000 less??? ;-)

[Guest guest]

Well, it's a video of a hull lamination beaten with a hammer, but there's no way to know what's in the lamination. If it is Epoxy, then its not Polyester and Epoxy is very toxic and never used in a commercial manufacturing that I know of, except some new racing K-1's out of China where there are no labor laws. Epoxy does perform better than polyester, and after all, its called GFRP, glass fiber reinforced plastic. Its the polymerized resin that makes the lamination plastic.

I can beat the bottom of my plastic Elaho with a hammer too and unlike the video, its thick enough to be useful in a boats hull and it needs not fiber reinforcement.

If this guy Patrick will make a stiff, epoxy based lamination, for $1700, I'd be interested, but I can't imagine he'd do that. That's why all commercial operations use polyester resins.

We made very thin slalom race boats like the video that needed lots of foam walls to hold their shape but a sea kayak needs to hold camping gear.

[rick stoehrer]

i have nothing to add to Ken C's comments and would only add david, that it is extraordinarilly unlikely that nigel was looking for a good teaching boat in desiging and manufacturing the romany/explorer. the man has little interest in naught BUT paddling and the design, layup and evolution of same has been a direct response to the high winds, big seas and rocky shores of wales. it was designed essentially for his enjoyment and to paddle in big seas and not as a teaching platform. as it happens, the guy could probably teach comfortably perched on a 2 x 4.

of the boats dicussed, i've paddled 2. the pintail is so different i would hardly compare it to an explorer - completely different keel - far, far more rocker with so little volume in the ends. the key feature to the pintail (and to which brian will attest) is that the little devil just wants to turn and play in rocks. you need a bit of skeg to keep her going straight - and while i was only in her one calm day, i would imagine this is exacerbated in conditions...particularly to beam or astern.

the legend has hard chines and is a bit narrower...i've never paddled the boat but my observation is that it's quite large.

the aquanot is a more similarly designed hull as compared to an explorer at least but again, my observation from camping w/suze is that it's huge. we unpacked and unpacked that thing like a damn clown car....stuff just kept coming out WAY after the explorer would have been emptied.

as far as the explorer i find the transition from primary to secondary to be excellent and easy....scull down, scull up....roll, whatever. on a big day, this boat shines from this almost seemless transition...very little surprises you and grabs any bit of boat. it isn't the fastest, it isn't the most voluminous and it surely ain't the lightest but on a big day, i woudn't trade it for the world.

[Guest guest]

I would recommend both the Aquanaut and Explorer to the beginner, but if the Explorer is more of a beginners boat, then I think 99.99% of all sea kayak paddlers should be paddling it and once they've mastered their BCU 5 star or equivalent, then move on to play with other designs. It's not about the boat, its about the skill of the monkey in the bucket.

[rick stoehrer]

that's funny as hell!

can you paddle this week after work? big water bubba!

[djlewis]

Thanks, Rick.

One point... Suzanne's boat was an Argonaut, not an Aquanaut.

I believe Valley brought out the Argonaut first, to compete with the Explorer, and then realized pretty quickly that it was too high volume to appeal to the same crowd. So they cut down the volume to where it is now, which seems fine to me (though not, apparently to Ken), and called that the Aquanaut. I think they are about to rename the Argonaut to Aquanaut HV, since it has the same hull, and that's the trendy naming trick.

I certainly didn't mean to impugn any characteristics of the Explorer. I realize that it's quite a feat to have high initial as well as secondary stability, and there's nothing wrong with having a high-performance boat that a beginner can also paddle. I also know well that the Explorer hull is the very standard by which rough water handling is judged. Heaven forbid I should be so fractious and disrespectful of my elders' choices. But, I am hearing in some quarters that the really low initial stability of the Aquanaut is at least a slight leg up on the Explorer in some respects. That does make some sense to me, hydrodynamically speaking.

You are welcome to try my Aquanaut when it arrives -- that being the ultimate test -- and give your expert judgement.

--David.

[Guest guest]

Rick, I'm 100% in the surfski. I'm forcing myself to learn to paddle the things, and it's a slow process for me, 3 evenings a week off Beverly and weekends. I can't allow myself to get in the sea kayak for fear of a set back. The surfski takes the balance issues to another level. I'd like to think I'm pretty solid at paddling in the ocean, but when I get out with the surskiers in big water, I can see I've got lots to learn at using the surface of the ocean for propulsion. As the waves get bigger they are gone. The conditions of big water we've had the last few weeks have been a blessing to provide conditions like CA. The Essex Race last weekend, that's normally flat was a wind blown chop and my first race in my Millennium ski, and white-knuckle all the way. There were about 10 surfskis. I wish I could convince more sea kayakers with an athletic bent to try the ski. If a sea kayak is the mountain bike, the surfski is a 15 lb carbon road bike.

[Bill Gwynn]

Just to clarify, Suz's old boat was an Argonaut (can you say high volume). The boat we are discussing is an Aquanaut (much closer in volume to the Explorer). My take on the Aquanaut is that it is very similar to the Explorer. For me, there were two factors in my choosing the Aquanaut over the Explorer. 1. Transition from edge to edge is smoother, I just really liked the feel. 2. I liked the fit better, the little extra room in the thighs made for a more comfortable ride.

PS. Valley is renaming their boats, they will now be called the Aquanaut and the Aquanaut HV (formerly the Argonaut)

[rick stoehrer]

i'll leave the expert judgement to others but i would like to paddle it in conditions just to feel the differences.

[Bill Gwynn]

Hey Rick,

You are welcome to use mine anytime. Just give me a shout and come get it, take it for the day.

[Paul Sylvester]

My 2 cents,,,,,,,

The boats are very different, it comes down to hard chines vs. softer chines. I have paddled many trips with my hard chine s-n-g boats, (many different designs),and many trips in my "Beloved Explorer" and the O.I. The harder the chines the less technique you need for edging and carving turns because you can spin the boat so easy........In most cases........IE.egual lenght ,same rocker comparisons of the styles of boats.

It comes down to initial stability vs. secondary stability.....which do you want. Rocker and waterline lenght will give you your playfulness ( or lack of)for the waves and rocks. Both styles have short and long designs for different purposes.

The design of the Explorer will not make anyone "look like an expert". It will only make them comfy until the %&%#$# hits the fan.

You paddle and you watch and you can spot the newbies no matter what they are sporting for boat and equipment.

I miss the looseness and responsiveness of the hard chines and look forward to being back in a hard chine boat. When the water gets big the flare on a hardchine boat tightens the stability up.The net result is that in big water you can feel comfy in either design..........with the time in the saddle to know the boats.

Well, it is pouring rain outside and I am off to Maine for a few days of cold wet kayak camping. I will answer rebuttals when I get back.

Paul Sylvester

"Beloved Explorer"

Lendal Powermaster, 215cm

[alcoons]

As a member who is lucky to remember the name of the manufacturer of my own boat, I had to find out what a chine was to understand this good discussion. Searching the web gave;

"Chine - The point at which a kayak bottom turns upward and becomes the kayak's side is called the chine. Smooth, rounded chines provide good secondary stability and easier bracing and rolling. Sharper, more pronounced chines can enhance tracking as well as initial stability."

From this I gather that a truly round chine provides no evidence where the the botton ends and a side begins.

Al

Eddyline Nighthawk

red/white

[djlewis]

Al:

If you buy some Necky boats, you can have two chines. Yup, they are "double-chined", that is, have two turns and thus three surfaces rather than two surfaces (or one smooth one, in the case of a smooth chine).

Yes, I too am learning a lot, not only from this thread and forum, but also from researching and trying different boats.

--David.

[Brian Nystrom]

...and you'll see the details of how he builds his boats and what the hull in the video was. As was stated in the first video, it's their standard fiberglass layup, which is fiberglass and epoxy. Tideline IS a commercial operation; it's the same company that makes ONNO paddles. Here's their home page:

http://eteamz.active.com/paddleshop/index.cfm?

"If it is Epoxy, then its not Polyester"

Obviously.

"and Epoxy is very toxic and never used in a commercial manufacturing that I know of, except some new racing K-1's out of China where there are no labor laws."

I don't know where you get your information from, but polyester resin is far more noxious and toxic that epoxy. The styrene fumes from it are horrible (an organic vapor respirator is mandatory) and the catalyst (hardener) is MEKP, which is quite poisonous. As someone who has worked with both, I can assure you that I'd much rather deal with epoxy that polyester resin. I use epoxy routinely for repairs without even the need to wear a respirator (though I probably would if I was building a boat with it). The worst thing that can happen with epoxy is that some people can develops a sensitivity to it over time if they get the components or the uncured mixture on their skin, but that's relatively easy to avoid. Once epoxy is cured, it's completely inert and non-toxic.

The choice to use epoxy or not has ZERO to do with "labor laws" as there aren't any restrictions on it beyond basic OSHA safety requirements. The fact that it's several times more expensive than polyester resin is probably the main reason it's not in wider use.

"Epoxy does perform better than polyester, and after all, its called GFRP, glass fiber reinforced plastic. Its the polymerized resin that makes the lamination plastic."

"GFRP" and "GRP" are common terms for fiberglass composites. The resin can be polyester, vinylester, epoxy or perhaps others that I'm not aware of. "Glass filled nylon" that is commonly used for high-strength molded parts is in the same "GFRP" category.

"I can beat the bottom of my plastic Elaho with a hammer too and unlike the video, its thick enough to be useful in a boats hull and it needs not fiber reinforcement."

I'm not sure what you mean by this, since what he was beating on WAS a boat hull, like the ones he uses in his production boats.

"If this guy Patrick will make a stiff, epoxy based lamination, for $1700, I'd be interested, but I can't imagine he'd do that."

He already does. Three models currently and hopefully more to come. As a racer, I would think that his Tideline 19 might appeal to you as a combination racing/sea boat.

"That's why all commercial operations use polyester resins."

That's simply untrue. While not many other than racing boat companies use epoxy, there are quite a few that use vinylester resin.

"We made very thin slalom race boats like the video that needed lots of foam walls to hold their shape but a sea kayak needs to hold camping gear."

The hull shown is a SEA KAYAK. Tideline doesn't build racing boats, though there is some obvious racing influence in the design of their sea kayaks. If you read the descriptions, you'll see that they're outfitted similarly to others, with two bulkheads and hatches standard and an option for no bulkheads if you don't want them. Apparently, stiffness is not a problem.

[Brian Nystrom]

...and they do not define the handling characteristics of the boat in and of themselves. Hard chine, soft chine and multichine boats can be made to feel essentially identical, as there are many other design elements that affect a boat's handling as much or more than the type of chine does. While it's convenient to coin "rules" regarding various chine types, they are invariably inaccurate.

[Brian Nystrom]

They've also renamed the company to Valley Sea Kayaks (VSK), but it seems they're taking their time making the transition so that they don't lose their name recognition.

[Brian Nystrom]

It's really nothing like the other two. It's a boat one might own in addtion to the others, but it's not a substitute for either one.