Kayak Camping

[Nancy Hill]

Re: Exped Synmat pads. Comfortable for the sleeper, maybe, but, man...those things are NOISY!

You'll need a lot more than one benadryl and a shot of your favorite whatever to get through the night if you're next door to someone who has one. When I'm camping with someone who uses one, I want to pitch my tent as far away as I can!

pru

Not just the Exped, but the Big Agnes Insulated Air Core pad sounded like someone crinkling a bag of potato chips every time I moved. It kept me and those in neighboring tents awake wondering what I was doing. I exchanged it for something else that is completely silent. I think it had to do with how much air was in it. When it was inflated to its max it was not noisy, but too firm. When I let enough air out for it to be comfy it got very noisy. It's best to try out all your gear at home before heading out.

Benadryl never worked for me and I decided to try (at home first and have someone hide all the car keys!) a sleeping pill called Ambien. It works great, but I have read that some people who take it get up in the middle of the night and do strange things (like driving!)and do not remember in the morning. That could lead to some interesting situations and memorable camping stories. As far as I know I have not done anything strange in the middle of the night, unless friends are keeping a secret video log.

-Nancy

[Katherine]

Doug, such a great topic, thanks for getting the conversation going!

Pru, good to know about the noise factor of the Exped mat; I shall choose my sleeping companions very carefully :-)

Any specific recommendations regarding a camp stove??

[Michael_Crouse]

My Exped DAM doesn't make any noise, maybe down is better for sleeping pads too? This is the first complaint I've heard about noisy sleeping pads other than the foiled lined thermarest one. A lot of people bring cheap foam ear plugs with them in case of a snoring neighbor.

This goes back to the try before you buy, most stores should have the pads out for you to try. Kittery Trading Post is the closest place I can think of that sells Exped.

As far as a foam pad goes a crazy creek chair works as a 1/2 length sleeping pad and a wind shield for your stove. People smarter than I can probably figure out even more uses for it.

[kate]

FWIW, Mark and Jess and I shared a 6-man tent for 2 weeks over the summer - Jess on a thermarest, Mark on an airmattress, and me on the Exped. There were no complaints from anyone about noisy tossing and turning.

And... part of my standard camping stash is a pair of earplugs. Mostly because wind and rain and thunderstorms and surf can be very noisy. Snoring too

[Suz]

Hard to know where to start! I LOVE kayak camping. I have whittled down a bit over the years but still find that I really like to make a good meal at the end of the day. I will focus on my kitchen set up as others have covered the sleeping aspect.

Camp kitchen consists of a Eagle Creak toiletry bag which I have filled with little plastic test tubes for spice bottles: oregano/basil mix, cilantro, rosemary, cumin seeds,hot chili pepper flakes, pepper, ginger. Depending on meals, I sometimes add others. The little test tubes are plastic and have a screw cap. I bring a small nalgene bottle with olive oil. My new addition this year will be coconut oil in a small tub. I have been using it at home and find it works really well with high heat. I may end up leaving olive oil and just going with the coconut. I keep a small bottle of campsuds in the kitchen. That works for cleaning in salt water and hot or cold. (I also use it for bathing myself as needed). Nalgene bottle with wooden matches along with a special pack of strike anywhere high wind matches for when it is really wet and windy. Don't bother with lighters as they always end up failing and so can't bring just a lighter. I bring a green scrubby along with a handi wipe for cleaning up.

For stoves - I bring two - a jet boil and a new Optimus Nova + http://www.optimusstoves.com/seen/optimus-products/products/katadynshopconnect/optimus-outdoor-kocher/optimus-nova-1/

Works great and runs on any liquid gas. With these two, I can cook for up to 6 people with a set of SS pans that nest and one fry pan that has a 8" folding handle. The folding fry pan won't fit in small hatches - only fits in a big hatch. So you NDK people are out of luck!

For group camping/paddles, I find it works really well if everyone else leaves the planning/organizing for the food to me and they leave all their stuff home. We then have a communal kitchen. (An extra jet boil can be brought along as needed, for 4 you don't need it - for 6 you do.) If this is done, you will find on a 5 day trip you have much more room in your kayak. It certainly is better than everyone bringing everything. It does require a bit of trust though! (I do have everyone bring their own snacks for on water).

For organizing the actual food, I bag breakfast together in dry bags. Lunch same way. Dinner's get bagged separately in dry bags by the meal. These individual dry bags get passed out to members of the group and they know which meal they need to bring out when the time comes. Breakfast gets given to the early bird in the group so if they want to get started before everyone else wakes up they can.

I agree with Ed that smaller dry bags are better - my preference is for 8 L bags.

I don't like to use alcohol stoves as I find them to be a bit dangerous - had an accident with the alcohol near the stove and boy that was a scary sight (in my own backyard testing it out!).

Noisy mats make me crazy too! I prefer an ultralight thermarest but full length so my feet are warm! For any trip longer than an overnight, I too bring a Crazy Creek chair. To get it where we are going, it is under my legs folded in half.

Water - no one has mentioned water. Gotta have it, can't do without it. I use the MSR dromedary bags and only carry them inside the cockpit - either behind the seat or in front of the foot pegs or between my legs. I err on the side of too much water rather than just enough. I prefer the 6 L size: http://cascadedesigns.com/en/msr/water-treatment-and-hydration/expedition-water-treatment-and-hydration/dromedary-bags/product

I agree with Mike - eat like you do at home and you will always know how/what to make while camping.

[Katherine]

Suz, I knew it wouldn't be long before you posted here!

[rick stoehrer]

The folding fry pan won't fit in small hatches - only fits in a big hatch. So you NDK people are out of luck!

overcome by a hatch? i don't think so! i wouldn't say that we ndk paddlers are out of luck so much as we're smarter! i have the same fry pan and lash it to the rear deck once all the rest of the gear is stowed - ain't lost one yet! it's a vital piece of gear for "camp pizza" night.

[Suz]

overcome by a hatch? i don't think so! i wouldn't say that we ndk paddlers are out of luck so much as we're smarter! i have the same fry pan and lash it to the rear deck once all the rest of the gear is stowed - ain't lost one yet! it's a vital piece of gear for "camp pizza" night.

I thought of a few more items I really love that I use:

http://www.orikaso.com/ - I use their plates and bowls. Sometimes just bring bowls - depends on what the food is. They make a good cutting board and take up NO space in the boat when packing.

Always bring my thermos to brew my tea in the morning and then make a pot to go for later.

Kitchen Sink - I use an old one made by REI - here is a Sea to Summit one that looks good: http://www.rei.com/product/758051/sea-to-summit-kitchen-sink-20-liter

Great for washing up the dishes with. Which, BTW, I do wash with soap and rinse with sea water with a tiny touch of bleach for disinfectant. (I use the bleach for multi day trips rather than just an overnight).

Latest addition to kayak camping has been my kindle - can bring loads of books to read which is such a treat when in bed early.

[Michael_Crouse]

If you have small hatches Exped (yes I do love their stuff) makes a compression dry bag that compresses the long way, so you don't wind up with a flat fat pancake of a dry bag.

Rick does bring up an interesting point, things strapped to your deck, my personal feeling on this is DO NOT PUT ANYTHING ON YOUR DECK!!!!! Ok that'a bit bit strong, but I do think this should be avoided if possible. The hassle of a foam sleeping pad, dry bag, ect... during a rescue is not worth it. Having said that are you paddling in mill pond conditions a mile to your base camp? Ok, pile on the gear.

[brambor]

I sit on my frying pan while I paddle.

overcome by a hatch? i don't think so! i wouldn't say that we ndk paddlers are out of luck so much as we're smarter! i have the same fry pan and lash it to the rear deck once all the rest of the gear is stowed - ain't lost one yet! it's a vital piece of gear for "camp pizza" night.

[gyork]

...a good cutting board and take up NO space in the boat when packing.

Front or back cover to a flexible pastic, low-volume, 3-ring binder. Doubles as an emergency boat patch (untested, ?fortunately)-just cut to size.

[rick stoehrer]

If you have small hatches Exped (yes I do love their stuff) makes a compression dry bag that compresses the long way, so you don't wind up with a flat fat pancake of a dry bag.

Rick does bring up an interesting point, things strapped to your deck, my personal feeling on this is DO NOT PUT ANYTHING ON YOUR DECK!!!!! Ok that'a bit bit strong, but I do think this should be avoided if possible. The hassle of a foam sleeping pad, dry bag, ect... during a rescue is not worth it. Having said that are you paddling in mill pond conditions a mile to your base camp? Ok, pile on the gear.

i normally don't have anything on my deck but splits when i paddle BUT...if i am heading out to camp, i am generally not out to play - mostly just looking to cover some miles. the boats is heavier if i'm camping or if i'm running a group camping....they're slower to respond and not hardly as nimble - less fun to play. having a single fry pan with no weight or windage on the REAR deck is hardly an impediment to rescues. i do run an increased risk of losing it if there's mayhem but like i said, camp heavy boats and play and mayhem, while not mutually exclusive, are different aspects of the sport.

[Paul Sylvester]

The Big Agnes sleeping bag is the best for me. I bought the wide, long and rectangular 40 deg.bag. The 24" wide by 2" thick mattress that goes with it is for car camping and I use a 1-1/2 x 20" in the slot for kayak camping.

I have to have foot room and am tall. Have not used my 20 deg mummy bag in years...

Never slide off and it is quiet.

Freestanding tent,

MSR multi fuel stove,

Ditto warm dry clothes....socks very important at night

Fixin's for margaritas is always nice....

[cgr]

One of my friends swears by this cot for backpacking & camping. It has a lifetime warranty and packs down to about the size of a nalgene.

http://www.luxurylite.com/cotindex.html

[brambor]

Interesting. Your friend used it in kayak camping? Under a tarp?

[cgr]

In a tent, although it would work well under a tarp or with a bivy sack

[Cath]

I have enjoyed reading all of your comments! Great topic. As far as sleep meds - Nancy was smart to caution that one should first try ambien at home if it is something you elect to use. Keep in mind that it is a sedative and a controlled substance. If an emergency arises in the middle of the night you may not be able to think quickly and rationally (i.e. you may not want to take it if you are chaperoning a boy scout trip). I once had a very long and important phone conversation with someone after they took their ambien for the evening, but before they went to bed. They did not sound drowsy or impaired but the next day they did not even remember that they had talked on the phone, let alone any of the discussion (you may not want to play truth or dare after taking ambien). Also - unless it is an absolute emergency, never take any medication for the first time while in a remote area. That sounds like common sense but sleep meds might seem pretty harmless, especially to someone desperate for sleep, and can be underestimated.

some info: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000928/

Benadryl is a common over the counter medication and the generic forms are effective. It can also be good to have along for allergic reactions, and it is very rare for someone to be allergic to it. With some people it causes a paradoxical reaction and makes them feel more excited. It can also cause a "benadryl hangover" - and make you feel kind of groggy and foggy the next morning, and can cause dry mouth.

Melatonin is a hormone, and supplements are available inexpensively over the counter. Some people find it helpful for insomnia. Studies have shown effectiveness for jet lag. It may be worth trying.

My favorite technique is Joshua Radin on the MP3 player. Electronics can have their place and have less side effects.

[EEL]

Without getting too philosophical about this, I find I have trouble sleeping the first night out, maybe two, until I get into the "flow" of the natural world. It takes a few days to get synced and free from the schedules our "normal" life. Unfortunately most of my trips are long weekends and I never quite get there. Anyway, I just enjoy the sights and sounds more waking hours gives me and sleep better the next night.

My prejudical view is that gear should not be a means of taking our normal life with us, but the minimum needed to live in "synch/flow" with the natural world. I suspect some are more and some are less comfortable living away from the accurtraments of civilization and that affects what folks feel is necessary in terms of gear. I believe the more gear you have the more between you and the world and the less your ability to move freely about.

Ed Lawson

[Cath]

With the different occupations and schedules that can be represented, the challenge on a group trip can be getting in sync with each other, rather than with the natural world. The success of the group trip depends on everyone adopting a similar schedule. Nature is the easy part - it is not trying to get anywhere! Of course getting to know everyone along makes it lots of fun and very worthwhile.

[rick stoehrer]

...Without getting too philosophical about this, I find I have trouble sleeping the first night out, maybe two, until I get into the "flow" of the natural world.

Ed Lawson

i have an ability to fall asleep that borders on narcolepsy. great for camping...not so good for really long drives.

[EEL]

The success of the group trip depends on everyone adopting a similar schedule.

Quite true with regard to challenges and rewards of group trips. Especially on trips with people with whom you are4 not well acquainted. Despite the added risk, there are many reasons why solo trips are rewarding. One of them is simplicity.

Ed Lawson

[PeterB]

I went from “bring-lots-of –stuff” to minimalist, and I like minimalist better. Simpler, less stuff to fuss with and fret over, easier to carry bags over slippery rocks, easier to set up and break down campsite , and I have the option to camp from my 17’ play boat rather than my 18’ cruising go-places boat.

I went on a Machias/Bold Coast trip with two friends who were in an Anas acuta and a Romany (not much volume) , and noticed that they were every bit as well- dressed, well - equipped , well – fed, and happy as I was., and my boat was loaded with all sorts of crap. So I set about changing my ways

I found the best way to save space was changing a few key items, and really looking at camp kitchen:

My key save space items:

MRS Hubba Tent. Theyhave a lightweight version which is more expensive but sturdier and lighter. It’s a one person and self- standing . Make sure whatever you get is self standing (not dependent on stakes to stand up) ; you can’t rely on finding ground in which to set tent pegs on Maine islands.

Big Agnes Horse Thief down (35 degree) mummy bag: mummy bags are lower volume than rectangular. The Big Agnes inflatable sleeping pad inserts into a sleeve on the bag. So the bag is compact (no insulaton on the bottom (its meant to be used with a sleeping pad) and the sleeping pad is very compact.

I have a remarkable Snow Peak stove: a bit pricey, but smaller than a Swiss army knife.

For camp kitchen, one not-large pot, one small skillet, one bowl. One spork, one knife, You can probably use your tea thermos cup for all drinking if you want to.

I have a ripstop nylon tarp thats , again, pricey, but very light and compact. Both the tarp and the sleeping pad are about the size of a kiddie toy football, or a cataloupe.

I take too many clothes with me so I've got to work on that. You really dont need many clothes on a trip. I like merino wool. comfy, insulates when damp, doesnt smell.

I’m no expert on packing food wisely so I won’t pontificate here.

[JohnHuth]

Like Peter, I tend to be minimalist.

Start with water - how much will you consume per day? Will you have sources of fresh water, or need to be self sufficient? I find that I go through about 6 liters per day, but I also used freeze-dried food.

Dromedary bags are great for stowing and pretty versatile. Put them in first and low to keep the center of gravity low.

Next food - if you like to go gourmet style, you'll want a chopping board and a bunch of tupperware cases to hold fresh food. Personally, I'm the backpacking type and will just bring along freeze-dried dinners, oatmeal for breakfast. The one thing I really like is having dry sausage and cheese for snacking. Remember that you'll be consuming at least 4000 calories per day, maybe more. Most freeze-dried dinners that come in 'serves two' packets will serve one active paddler.

Cooking gear - for me a lightweight isopro stove. I figure probably one canister for 3 days of cooking. I have a titanium pop and bowl and spoons - not much more.

Tent - I like a small tent that's light, but that's the backpacker in me. A down bag, a light foam mattress.

Clothing - I partition my clothes into 'on the water' and 'off the water' - keeps it easier to stay dry.

I bring a "survival bag" - basically a fanny pack with a buck knife, multiple means of starting fires, an emergency tarp, emergency flashing mirror - take this on walking trips to wander - keep it separate from the on-the-water kit of flares and kayak repair.

Dry bags for everything you want to keep dry.

A very good single malt scotch!! My biggest luxury in camp after dark is reading a good book with a headlamp and sipping single malt scotch and water. Can't beat it! It helps with the sleeping issue, too. Heck with Ambien.

Bring at least one mesh bag per compartment - you can easily stuff your gear in these and walk it up to your tent site and back down again. Dry stuff out whenever you can!

When packing remember to keep metal away from the deck mounted compass.

One piece of advice for someone kayak camping for the first time - lay all your stuff out a couple of days before you are heading out and try to load up your kayak on dry land. If you can't get all your gear in, you'll need to make some adjustments - better to do this when you have a few days to mess around- rather than making snap decisions when your friends are impatient to get on the water.

Oh yes, I'm in Geneva, Switzerland at the moment. Last week I was in Venice and saw a number of kayakers in the canals - what an idea!

[cfolster]

So, Robert and I are gearing up to kayak camp for the first time this year and we've been checking out the tents that have been recommended in this thread, mocking up their packed size and finding they don't fit in our hatches - and Robert has a good size boat with good size hatches.

Many of the 2 and3 person tents we're seeing are 8x25 or 7x20, etc packed, which is too big. We did find one that was recommended at 6x21 that fits, but we're wondering if folks are packing the poles and tent separately in order to fit their tents. Any advice would be welcome, as we will also be trying to fit the pads and sleeping bags, tarp, etc. etc. etc.

Thanks,

Cathy

[EEL]

Many of the 2 and3 person tents we're seeing are 8x25 or 7x20, etc packed, which is too big. We did find one that was recommended at 6x21 that fits, but we're wondering if folks are packing the poles and tent separately in order to fit their tents.

I stuiff the tent body in one bag, the fly in another and I store the poles and stakes separately as well. That way it should not be a problem to load the tent. It also enables you to allocate the tent between the two folks using it. Rember you need to allocate weight and volume so that your boats are preoperly trimmed and properly loaded.

Ed Lawson