Pavilion Beach Ipswich to Essex

[ThomasL]

Doing another "outing" with #1 son this Sunday. I have become very fond of the soft launch at Pavilion in Ipswich as it puts minimum abrasion on the hull of my new Quest.

Son John is over 6 ft and 200, so he may reside in that boat. I'd like to try for Essex and back in a day trip. Lately the seas have been very light, and if that condition exists on Sunday is the round trip doable in a day(with a quick stop for a plate of clams)? Neither of us have any issues concerning endurance/persistence, but Cranes is 8 miles long, and even staying in close in good weather....we are not Navy Seals. Also, on Wednesday #2 son and I have a paddle planned in Rhode Island. I used to do Tiverton to the USS Massachusetts and back in a day. Any suggestions as to put ins in RI? Guess I'm "pumping" you guys!

Tom

[bob budd]

Pavilion Beach launch for a Cranes Neck circumnavigation is not a long day. The tides need to be managed for two things, passing through Fox Creek and trying to arrive/launch away from low tide. I don't know where you are going for a plate of clams. In season they will want you to stay away from the swim area and there are likely to be a few (or more) boats. Also, the mouth of the Essex can kick up as can the sand bars off of the beach. As always you should check and respect the weather.

[ThomasL]

Thanks Bob. We will be sure to check tides and weather carefully and watch for the potential hazards you point out

Tom

[tyson]

Are you familiar with getting back into your boat in deep water? Are your sons? The currents and "bump" that can turn up in that bay are great fun, ...or dangerous if things go badly and you don't have some basic skills.

Be careful,

Ty

[ThomasL]

All the paddle recovery stuff seems a bit overly technical. I have never had too much difficulty simply straddling the hull and working myself up into the cockpit. Being somewhat submerged the boat is relatively easy to re enter. Anyway, John and I are both strong swimmers and know that staring with the boat is a must. You guys are the best!

Tom

[Doug]

All the paddle recovery stuff seems a bit overly technical. I have never had too much difficulty simply straddling the hull and working myself up into the cockpit. Being somewhat submerged the boat is relatively easy to re enter. Anyway, John and I are both strong swimmers and know that staring with the boat is a must. You guys are the best!

Tom

famous last words !

Blaine & I were just talking about this. Check out this post from 2006:

http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=3177&st=0&p=16705&hl=+rescue%20+plum%20+island%20+2006&fromsearch=1entry16705

[ccarlson]

Tom... you may want to go out (with a group of folks) in some 3 foot wind chop and try your cowboy scramble. Not saying you can't do it but you should be aware of how things change when conditions are less than benign. It's also always a good idea to have a Plan B just in case Plan A is a no-go. Check out whichever skills/practice sessions are posted and see what some other folks find to be useful and workable self-rescue methods.

Have fun and be safe out there!

Carl

[Deb Millar]

famous last words !

Blaine & I were just talking about this. Check out this post from 2006:

http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=3177&st=0&p=16705&hl=+rescue%20+plum%20+island%20+2006&fromsearch=1entry16705

I might also add that the two paddlers involved in this were very experienced paddlers and also well trained in rescue techniques, of which there are more than a few, although of an "overly technical" nature.

Don't want to scare you, just want you to be safe.

Deb M

[subaruguru]

Doug's reference to that incident tweaked my memory:

A few weeks following I met Keith as we were co-safety-spotters at an REI Demo Day. Not having any knowledge of him nor the USCG-involved event, I asked him what happened. Long story short (see that post) he summarized that a good deal of the problem was his unfamiliarity with that newer kayak (Q boat) in those conditions, adding that he thought he would've been ok, and NOT capsized, in his tried 'n true Explorer. VERY interesting....

The Quest premiered right around the time ('05?) I took a first Ocean Skills Session with CRCK in Cohasset. They used the new Quest for a larger guy, who quickly capsized twice in only very light chop. The assistant staff trainer promptly swapped 'yaks with the paid participant, but also capsized in moderate chop later (it was an unuasually choppy day...estimated by Dave (CRCK) at 4-5 footers at one point!).

Once we hit the current/eddy work, there's was an all-in, as expected, with further training, and all went well.

Not having heard much about the Quest since, I asked about it again, and was told that it's a 'yak for "a really big guy with good rolling skills who can control its combination of high volume cockpit and tender hull."

So maybe incorporate that bit of reference in your thinking and kayaking plans.

Maybe the Quest is better for your taller and heavier son, assuming he doesn't mind a rounded hull, and can advance to control it in conditions?

The cowboy entry is still not within my repertoire, even in a pool! So although it sounds like you're a natural athlete, strong swimmer, etc., I would exercise the caution all have suggested, as well knowing that your paddling an advanced hull that may be more easily tamed by a bigger guy, or maybe added ballast? I dunno.

Good luck, and be safe. It can take awhile to learn all the handling quirks of a new hull in "conditions", as both stories indicate.

[jason]

Doug's reference to that incident tweaked my memory:

A few weeks following I met Keith as we were co-safety-spotters at an REI Demo Day. Not having any knowledge of him nor the USCG-involved event, I asked him what happened. Long story short (see that post) he summarized that a good deal of the problem was his unfamiliarity with that newer kayak (Q boat) in those conditions, adding that he thought he would've been ok, and NOT capsized, in his tried 'n true Explorer. VERY interesting....

The Quest premiered right around the time ('05?) I took a first Ocean Skills Session with CRCK in Cohasset. They used the new Quest for a larger guy, who quickly capsized twice in only very light chop. The assistant staff trainer promptly swapped 'yaks with the paid participant, but also capsized in moderate chop later (it was an unuasually choppy day...estimated by Dave (CRCK) at 4-5 footers at one point!).

Once we hit the current/eddy work, there's was an all-in, as expected, with further training, and all went well.

Not having heard much about the Quest since, I asked about it again, and was told that it's a 'yak for "a really big guy with good rolling skills who can control its combination of high volume cockpit and tender hull."

So maybe incorporate that bit of reference in your thinking and kayaking plans.

Maybe the Quest is better for your taller and heavier son, assuming he doesn't mind a rounded hull, and can advance to control it in conditions?

The cowboy entry is still not within my repertoire, even in a pool! So although it sounds like you're a natural athlete, strong swimmer, etc., I would exercise the caution all have suggested, as well knowing that your paddling an advanced hull that may be more easily tamed by a bigger guy, or maybe added ballast? I dunno.

Good luck, and be safe. It can take awhile to learn all the handling quirks of a new hull in "conditions", as both stories indicate.

Q boat != Quest.

The Quest is an old Derek Hutchinson designed boat make by P&H it has been around since at least 2000 and is a very very different boat from the Valley Q Boat.

[Bill Lord]

I started in a 16' plastic boat and could do a cowboy entry with ease. Now that I have a Quest, I have not been able to re-enter it alone without the aid of a paddle float. It just flips right over and that is in calm water. You may have better luck but I seriously suggest some wet entry practice before heading out off of Crane's. Large rogue waves are very common and can catch you off guard.

Bill

[Gcosloy]

If you find the Quest tippy unloaded you might try what I call "training wheels": http://www.rei.com/product/402099/reliance-fold-a-carrier-water-carrier-25-gallon

Fill up 2-2.5 gal collapsible water containers, place them in the front and rear hatches and secure them with a couple of those foam pool noodles so they can't shift around. You have now added approx. 40 lbs. of ballast. (Fill the containers with sea water and dump same when you finish your paddle.) As you become more comfortable with the boat try using less water. Many long high volume boats are expedition boats and are designed to perform best with a load. Quest, Explorer, and Nordkapps are in this category. Some of the newer designs like the Impex Force series seem to perform very well empty or loaded.

[jason]

I started in a 16' plastic boat and could do a cowboy entry with ease. Now that I have a Quest, I have not been able to re-enter it alone without the aid of a paddle float. It just flips right over and that is in calm water. You may have better luck but I seriously suggest some wet entry practice before heading out off of Crane's. Large rogue waves are very common and can catch you off guard.

Bill

My quest is it really needs a lot of skeg even with a minor wind.

I might be a better weight range for it but it feels good for me.

Scott took this picture last Sunday:

-Jason

[jason]

I started in a 16' plastic boat and could do a cowboy entry with ease. Now that I have a Quest, I have not been able to re-enter it alone without the aid of a paddle float. It just flips right over and that is in calm water. You may have better luck but I seriously suggest some wet entry practice before heading out off of Crane's. Large rogue waves are very common and can catch you off guard.

Bill

The issue with my quest is it really needs a lot of skeg even with a minor wind. Other than that it seems like a stable boat to me.

I might be a better weight range for it but it feels good for me.

Scott took this picture last Sunday:

-Jason

[ThomasL]

Thanks for the warnings and reports. Last night when I mentioned the "straddling" cowboy approach to re entering a wet boat I was basing my statements primarily on canoe work in the Great Lakes in less than extreme conditions. Also, having celebrated my 65th a day late I had more that a couple Merlots under my belt. In my 1st two outings I have noticed the "tippy" nature of the Quest unloaded, and surfing a roller in which is not difficult with my 16' whitewater hull definitely would/will require a lot more muscle and nerve with the new boat. My son John wants to try the Quest on either the out or return leg of the trip, and in the back of my mind I have been trying to see how to set things up so that he is aboard the old boat when and if difficulties arise. I plan to load the Quest heavy and paddle with a spray skirt securely in place(no matter how warm it is). If the wind or sea is up, even in the slightest we will stay inside and do the bird sanctuary green heads and all. I'm not stupid, and have been doing this a lot of years here and in the Pacific. Had some dicy close calls, but no unsurmountable difficulties. I am a fair weather calm water type of guy. And judging by some of your profile pictures, much less of a risk taker than many of You.

Thanks again. I'm careful and timid,

Tom

[subaruguru]

The Quest is an old Derek Hutchinson designed boat make by P&H it has been around since at least 2000 and is a very very different boat from the Valley Q Boat.

I know. I didn't confuse the two "Qs". The Q-boat (was it called the Qariaq?) story was to illustrate that even the most experienced paddler (Keith) admitted that paddling a hull that's NEW to him can lead to difficulties in unexpected conditions.

[jason]

The Quest is an old Derek Hutchinson designed boat make by P&H it has been around since at least 2000 and is a very very different boat from the Valley Q Boat.

I know. I didn't confuse the two "Qs". The Q-boat (was it called the Qariaq?) story was to illustrate that even the most experienced paddler (Keith) admitted that paddling a hull that's NEW to him can lead to difficulties in unexpected conditions.

Ern,

If you reread your text:

The Quest premiered right around the time ('05?) I took a first Ocean Skills Session with CRCK in Cohasset. They used the new Quest for a larger guy, who quickly capsized twice in only very light chop. The assistant staff trainer promptly swapped 'yaks with the paid participant, but also capsized in moderate chop later (it was an unuasually choppy day...estimated by Dave (CRCK) at 4-5 footers at one point!).

Once we hit the current/eddy work, there's was an all-in, as expected, with further training, and all went well.

It sure seems that you did have the two confused in your text. The Qwest was out in 2000 or before. The Q Boat was released in 2005. Any way, I would suggest that you spend a few days in a quest before deciding it's not stable.

-Jason

[EEL]

Just a SWAG as never sat in one, but seems unless loaded or a big paddler aboard a Quest might seem "corky". I seem to recall it having a bit more of a V hull. Not sure that means it lacks stability, especially secondary stability, but a "passive" paddler might well find a "corky" boat unstable or at least disconcerting. An "active" paddler might not find it so or perhaps think it just merits a little more attention.

Ed Lawson

[Gcosloy]

Ah, the adjectives we use and the unwanted (I'm sure ) implications. Tippy conveys a hint of inebriation, clearly a pejorative and not a nice thing to say about a boat. Corky on the other hand sounds like someone's bubbly girlfriend: fun to be with and an elevator of spirits! I know which I would choose-damn the ballast-I'm up for a corky ride.

[subaruguru]

Ern,

If you reread your text:

It sure seems that you did have the two confused in your text. The Qwest was out in 2000 or before. The Q Boat was released in 2005. Any way, I would suggest that you spend a few days in a quest before deciding it's not stable.

-Jason

No confusion re the two hulls, only the Qwest's date of introduction: CRCK had described it as a "new" boat (maybe just to their fleet?) on the paddle in 2005 or 2006. I'd assumed new MODEL too. My small error.

Also, please read more carefully...I'm just quoting OTHERS" descriptions of stability profile, and what I SAW when one spilled a newbie twice and a proficient paddler once; and of course the repeated CRCK concise description from just last Friday, which would indicate that it may be a great match for someone of your size, strength and rolling skill, but perhaps not a smaller, older guy of less experience as our newcomer. But maybe his son is a better fit, and with advancing skills will fit it fine. I suspect they'll find out in time, as we all do.

[ThomasL]

John and I took the boats out today from Pavilion. Lots of traffic crossing the channels and the interesting water someone mentioned returning across the shoals against the tide. Thanks to the mild conditions I was able to play with the new boat, and I do like it very much. Initially it felt unstable, but as the afternoon progressed I realized it is a very predictable craft, and the secret is leaning into the turns. A little water over the spray skirt hurts nothing and makes the turns happen. Love the skeg! kept it deployed untill the last minute when riding the minimal "swells into the beach at Cranes. All the advice received from members concerning the Quest has and will continue to be helpful. Doing a little "toot" around Providence Harbor with #2 son Mark on Wednesday.

[brambor]

Have you actually tried to do the "scramble" with the kayak you were paddling?

[ThomasL]

Have you actually tried to do the "scramble" with the kayak you were paddling?

No, but because of the warnings by some that the straddle approach was not possible with the Quest I did in fact pick up a paddle float. Have yet to attempt a wet recovery with the boat.

Tom

[EEL]

No, but because of the warnings by some that the straddle approach was not possible with the Quest

Seems it would be a good idea to put that warning to the test by trying it as opposed to believing whatever someone says. Perhaps at a lake skills session.

On what basis did someone give you that advice?

I seriously doubt there is any kayak that cannot be re-entered via the cowboy or straddle technique.

Ed Lawson

"The tygers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction."

[PeterB]

No, but because of the warnings by some that the straddle approach was not possible with the Quest I did in fact pick up a paddle float. Have yet to attempt a wet recovery with the boat.

Tom

Tom.

it would be a shame if warnings on a message board kept you from trying something as valuable as a scramble/cowboy rentry. Its more valuable than a paddle float rentry, which is only reliable in very calm waters, and not reliable in the kind of conditions that would likely capsize you in the first place.I dont see why the Quest would be impossibly hard to do a cowboy rentry into . It may be "lively" but it also has a pretty big cockpit; easy to drop into. But even if you dont master it, its good practice, helps teach balance.