T-rescue

[rylevine]

Maybe we should post re heel-hook reentry continuous spiral vs the more conventional "facing" twist on a separate thread?

This came up yesterday in the trip post-mortem (having a lot of them these days!). I always assumed that after rolling onto the back of the boat in the heel-hook rescue, the rescuee should twist into his/her boat facing the rescuer. It has the advantage of allowing the rescuee to brace against the rescuer's deck if necessary. Ernie noted however that the center of mass is probably closer to the edge of the 'raft' with that maneuver, and it may be better to have the rescuee twist away from the rescuer, face pointing outward from the center of the raft. That also has the advantage of simply continuing the roll-twist from the original heal-hook so may be faster. On the other hand, 'slow' can be a good thing especially since feet and legs have to get positioned into the boat. Havent yet looked it up in the texts for the official answer, but I think I read and heard that the twist should be towards the rescuer.

Bob

[PeterB]

Maybe we should post re heel-hook reentry continuous spiral vs the more conventional "facing" twist on a separate thread?

This came up yesterday in the trip post-mortem (having a lot of them these days!). I always assumed that after rolling onto the back of the boat in the heel-hook rescue, the rescuee should twist into his/her boat facing the rescuer. It has the advantage of allowing the rescuee to brace against the rescuer's deck if necessary. Ernie noted however that the center of mass is probably closer to the edge of the 'raft' with that maneuver, and it may be better to have the rescuee twist away from the rescuer, face pointing outward from the center of the raft. That also has the advantage of simply continuing the roll-twist from the original heal-hook so may be faster. On the other hand, 'slow' can be a good thing especially since feet and legs have to get positioned into the boat. Havent yet looked it up in the texts for the official answer, but I think I read and heard that the twist should be towards the rescuer.

Bob

Hey Bob,

Either way: rescu-ee re-entering facing away from, or towards rescuer- will work, as long as rescuer has committed to the rescu-ees boat. It is always good to have the two parties facing each other as much as possible, but either way gets the job done.

[leong]

Maybe we should post re heel-hook reentry continuous spiral vs the more conventional "facing" twist on a separate thread?

This came up yesterday in the trip post-mortem (having a lot of them these days!). I always assumed that after rolling onto the back of the boat in the heel-hook rescue, the rescuee should twist into his/her boat facing the rescuer. It has the advantage of allowing the rescuee to brace against the rescuer's deck if necessary. Ernie noted however that the center of mass is probably closer to the edge of the 'raft' with that maneuver, and it may be better to have the rescuee twist away from the rescuer, face pointing outward from the center of the raft. That also has the advantage of simply continuing the roll-twist from the original heal-hook so may be faster. On the other hand, 'slow' can be a good thing especially since feet and legs have to get positioned into the boat. Havent yet looked it up in the texts for the official answer, but I think I read and heard that the twist should be towards the rescuer.

Bob

Here (http://www.kayakpaddling.net/ [navigate to English, assisted rescue, heel hook]), for whatever it's worth, it shows a twist away.

[rylevine]

Here (http://www.kayakpaddling.net/ [navigate to English, assisted rescue, heel hook]), for whatever it's worth, it shows a twist away.

Leon,

Thanks for this web site. Under the heel-hook rescue, the animation shows the rescuee rotating to face the rescuer's boat. The rescuee's right hand is supported by the rescuer's boat to complete the twist.

Bob

[subaruguru]

I now realize why it's easier for me to use the "continuous screw-in" single move:

The 4th hatch cavity!

My legs are long enough so that when I hook-heel enter I then reach with the entering foot over to the far side (center of COMBINED masses) of the cockpit.

This may have been necessary anyway as my prior Cetus had a BIG cavity, so I found it easier to have my entering foot aim for its eventual home, continuing a twist so that said first foot/leg needn't traverse a huge stalagtite.

Although the Vaag's cavity is much smaller, the thigh braces are lower, too, so that spiraling in as though the entering foot is "drilling" into one hole is easier as momentum enables the thighs to rotate more quickly.

Frankly with the Cetus I'm not even sure I could have even stopped midway through an entry and then reverse "twist", given the relative difficulty in sliding one's large foot and leg ACROSS the cockpit orifice with that big obstacle. I'll have to ask Doug M which he prefers....

Will have to try both ways in the Vaag. There's no question it seems faster to me just keep spinning (preserving momentum) though....

There also may be something that just also feels right when twisting my back TOWARDS the center of the combined masses, perhaps instinctively akin to backing into a safe corner and looking outward when threatened, rather than preserving the civilized politeness of a face-to-face exercise? Something about trusting saviors to "watch my back"?

I don't like sitting in a restaurant with my back to an open crowd, either, which I think is a majority opinion. Just harder to let go and savor the food through other senses.

(Maybe we should try rescues while eating oreos and see what happens?)

[leong]

Leon,

Thanks for this web site. Under the heel-hook rescue, the animation shows the rescuee rotating to face the rescuer's boat. The rescuee's right hand is supported by the rescuer's boat to complete the twist.

Bob

Of course, you're right. My mistake.

[Gcosloy]

I think Peter's response is best. The mass variation going from the inside to the outside or opposite is trivial if the swimmer has inserted his torso fully into the cockpit. Where this variation can become less than trivial is when the swimmer only has legs under the combing and needs to twist his or her butt which is higher on the back deck. there may be also the tendency to raise the upper body during the twist. Both of these inelegant positions raises the center of gravity much more than the direction of the rotation. Having said that I've practiced with some big and tall paddlers and was surprised at how variation in swimmer weight as well as inelegant positioning has no effect on successful rescues, and this even includes rafting in the same instead of opposite directions.

I'm still not convinced that rescues in really bumpy conditions might not be quicker and safer when you get the swimmer back in a wet boat and continue your death grip while they pump out. Rob reported that during his rescue on the IOS trip he needed to repeat the T part twice because the first time a wave filled up the cockpit after emptying it. Particularly in cold water I think speed is crucial.

[tyson]

I'm still not convinced that rescues in really bumpy conditions might not be quicker and safer when you get the swimmer back in a wet boat and continue your death grip while they pump out. Rob reported that during his rescue on the IOS trip he needed to repeat the T part twice because the first time a wave filled up the cockpit after emptying it. Particularly in cold water I think speed is crucial.

Let the circumstances make the decision. If you need to get a swimmer out of cold water quickly, or you are in a dangerous location, get them in the boat pronto! (...or if its too dangerous, make them swim to a safer location, or something like that)

However, if you have time, it is much quicker to dump a boat than to pump it.

And, I'd 2nd your observation that it doesn't matter which way they roll. I can hold their boat either way.

Who feels capable paddling a swamped boat in rough conditions? Its something worth practicing.

Cheers!

Ty

[subaruguru]

I think Peter's response is best. The mass variation going from the inside to the outside or opposite is trivial if the swimmer has inserted his torso fully into the cockpit.

......which is only possible if the cockpit and its opening are both large relative to the paddler, eh?

Where this variation can become less than trivial is when the swimmer only has legs under the combing and needs to twist his or her butt which is higher on the back deck. there may be also the tendency to raise the upper body during the twist.

Both of these inelegant positions raises the center of gravity much more than the direction of the rotation.

........ESPECIALLY if there's a 4th hatch cavity inhibiting easy long-leg gymnastics. It's pretty damned hard to get one's torso fully in and "low" if the legs are on the wrong respective sides of a large 4th hatch cavity.

Having said that I've practiced with some big and tall paddlers and was surprised at how variation in swimmer weight as well as inelegant positioning has no effect on successful rescues, and this even includes rafting in the same instead of opposite directions.

........I'll agree that there are probably few significant differences, but would suspect that cork-screwing in is still a bit quicker, again, especially with 4th hatches' cavities, or filled suspended (hanging) inner packs holding an extra water bottle and a pump.

I'm still not convinced that rescues in really bumpy conditions might not be quicker and safer when you get the swimmer back in a wet boat and continue your death grip while they pump out. Rob reported that during his rescue on the IOS trip he needed to repeat the T part twice because the first time a wave filled up the cockpit after emptying it. Particularly in cold water I think speed is crucial.

........Bob emptied my Vaag twice yesterday, too, which surprised me as it's rear cockpit's bulkhead wall is "ramped" forward, protruding into the cockpit to allow really quick drainage.

OTOH the Vaag is REALLY tippy when partially filled, such as during a wet surf-launch where a re-capsize is almost inevitable. Given that the water was still c. 60F it was easy to be a patient rescue-e rather than face the work of pumping out. As it was we were quite near large rocks (see Leon's comments on the recent Lane's Cove trip report), but I think I preferred having a DRY skirted boat near rocks than a half-filled one, trying to pump away as I got pushed further towards those same rocks. In this particular case the time required to double-dump during the T was a LOT less than pumping out the cockpit would've been, and of course with much less risk of re-capsize.

........As always, thanks for your thoughts, Gene.

[tyson]

........Bob emptied my Vaag twice yesterday, too, which surprised me as it's rear cockpit's bulkhead wall is "ramped" forward, protruding into the cockpit to allow really quick drainage.

OTOH the Vaag is REALLY tippy when partially filled, such as during a wet surf-launch where a re-capsize is almost inevitable. Given that the water was still c. 60F it was easy to be a patient rescue-e rather than face the work of pumping out. As it was we were quite near large rocks (see Leon's comments on the recent Lane's Cove trip report), but I think I preferred having a DRY skirted boat near rocks than a half-filled one, trying to pump away as I got pushed further towards those same rocks. In this particular case the time required to double-dump during the T was a LOT less than pumping out the cockpit would've been, and of course with much less risk of re-capsize.

Since clearly the rescue went well, the rescue was clearly done well. I'd like to suggest some options that might apply to more "dire" situations:

If the rocks were closer or the drift more threatening, it may have been appropriate to stick you in the (partially?) swamped boat and then due a push style of contact tow to move further from any danger. In this method, you would be stabilizing yourself by holding onto the rescuer's boat while the rescuer paddled to a safer location. There you could either pump or get out of the boat and dump.

...and for the athletically inclined there is a method of climbing onto the rear deck of a rescuer's boat while he/she dumps your boat and then getting back in all without jumping into the water. Emilie and I have practiced this only once.

Cheers!

Ty

[rylevine]

........Bob emptied my Vaag twice yesterday, too, which surprised me as it's rear cockpit's bulkhead wall is "ramped" forward, protruding into the cockpit to allow really quick drainage.

OTOH the Vaag is REALLY tippy when partially filled, such as during a wet surf-launch where a re-capsize is almost inevitable. Given that the water was still c. 60F it was easy to be a patient rescue-e rather than face the work of pumping out. As it was we were quite near large rocks (see Leon's comments on the recent Lane's Cove trip report), but I think I preferred having a DRY skirted boat near rocks than a half-filled one, trying to pump away as I got pushed further towards those same rocks. In this particular case the time required to double-dump during the T was a LOT less than pumping out the cockpit would've been, and of course with much less risk of re-capsize.

Ern,

I had forgotten some of this. We were getting close to the same nasty rock conditions that Leon later entered to save your map (talk about 'above and beyond'!). Pumping out would have been unwise there. I was on the verge of giving you the spare paddle from my deck, or preferably contact towing out of there, when Leon arrived with your paddle just in time.

Bob

[rylevine]

If the rocks were closer or the drift more threatening, it may have been appropriate to stick you in the (partially?) swamped boat and then due a push style of contact tow to move further from any danger. In this method, you would be stabilizing yourself by holding onto the rescuer's boat while the rescuer paddled to a safer location. There you could either pump or get out of the boat and dump.

Ty,

It was a judgement call. I've had some recent experience in contact tows of flooded boats in surf, and it can be difficult. Nevertheless, I agree that was a reasonable option. When we started the drain and rescue, the rocks seemed far enough away. We gradually became alarmingly close to the rocks as Ernie was squared away in the kayak, and we were waiting for the paddle. I was keeping an eye on our drift, and would have paddled us out (easier with dry boats and Ernie holding on from his cockpit). Luckily, the cavalry arrived in the form of Leon with Ernie's paddle. All of us then easily paddled from that spot into open water.

Bob

[Phil Allen]

Quoting Ernie "........Bob emptied my Vaag twice yesterday, too, which surprised me as it's rear cockpit's bulkhead wall is "ramped" forward, protruding into the cockpit to allow really quick drainage........."

I've found that doing rescues on boats with low back decks and or a lot of deck rocker I'm more likely to scoop water when flipping the boat back upright. Edging the rescuer's boat makes this less likely, but can be intimidating in bigger conditions. Personally, I dump as much as possible and then finish by pumping.

Phil