Feedback on Eddyline Merlin XT

[FrankR]

Anyone have any experience/thoughts on the Merlin XT? - discontinued by Eddyline in 2007. I've been looking for a used inexpensive yak for a while and found this on CL for $600.

I'm big - 5"10, 41" waist, 235#, size 12 feet and not too flexible, so I'm looking for a 'big guy's' boat. My ability is a step beyond novice - I had a WS Tsunami 145 a few years ago that I sold cause it felt somewhat pokey. I'm not looking to go camping or high performance - just near shore day trips. Also would like to learn to roll one of these days.

What appeals to me (besides the price!) is the weight (CarbonLite - thermoplastic), the shorter length (what's the point of 17' if I'm not planning on carrying much more than lunch) and the (theoretical) fit since its claims to be designed for larger paddlers - haven't actually tried one out yet .

I'm concerned about its handling (has no skeg or rudder) and the long-term durability of the CarbonLite - how does it stand up to UV, etc.

From Eddyline's Discontinued Kayak page:

Model Name Merlin XT 2001-2007

Len in feet - 15

Wdth in inches - 23

Cockpit inches - 35 x 19

Weight - 46 pounds

Volume - 11.3 cubic feet

Capcity - 390 Pounds

Initial Stability - medium

Secondary Stability - high

Materials - CarbonLite

Of course, before I buy, I'll actually try it out, but your thoughts appreciated.

Frank

[leong]

"what's the point of 17' if I'm not planning on carrying much more than lunch"

Speed man, speed. All touring kayaks are displacement hulls and the maximum displacement speed of the kayak is approximately 1.34 times the square root of the waterline length in feet. If you have the power you can get it to this hull speed. But remember, it's waterline length, not overall length.

Also, the length of a kayak affects how it handles (especially in rough water).

[tyson]

You can do a wide variety of things close to shore.

While, I suspect that Leon's perspective is a bit more speed biased than most, if you want to be able to cover distance, that kayak will may prove to be on the short and wide side of things. That said, I paddled a 14ft x 24in kayak for 3-4 years and covered a good bit of open ocean with it. I now paddle a 17ft x 20in kayak.

Do you want to do relaxing tours in sheltered water?

[tyson]

You can do a wide variety of things close to shore.

While, I suspect that Leon's perspective is a bit more speed biased than most, if you want to be able to cover distance, that kayak will may prove to be on the short and wide side of things. That said, I paddled a 14ft x 24in kayak for 3-4 years and covered a good bit of open ocean with it. I now paddle a 17ft x 20in kayak.

Do you want to do relaxing tours in sheltered water?

Uhhh... I had typed a LOT more than that. Where's the rest of my post?!

[tyson]

Looks like my "Back" button/history had the whole thing. lets try this again:

------------------------

You can do a wide variety of things close to shore.

While, I suspect that Leon's perspective is a bit more speed biased than most, if you want to be able to cover distance, that kayak will may prove to be on the short and wide side of things. That said, I paddled a 14ft x 24in kayak for 3-4 years and covered a good bit of open ocean with it. I now paddle a 17ft x 20in kayak.

Do you want to do relaxing tours in sheltered water?

Do you want to do reasonable distance tours, possibly in unprotected waters?

Do yo want to surf?

Do you want to play in rocks?

You mentioned rolling.

Don't sell yourself short if you present confidence and skill level make any of the above intimidating. There are plenty of ways to build the needed skills. ...and this board is a great place to find those ways.

The kayak you are looking at might be a good fit for you. ...or it might not, as I suspect it won't be much faster than the one you had.

Length is not all about carrying capacity. That 15 footer you are looking at has all the capacity and displacement of a well designed/balanced 17-18 footer. It achieves its capacity with a wide beam and probably a high deck.

You mentioned rolling. I doubt there is a kayak out there (that you can stay in when upside down) that can't be rolled. However, if you want to make rolling easier, find a kayak with a lower deck, esp. the rear deck. Given the carrying capacity of that kayak, I suspect that the deck is higher than ideal for rolling. Ideally, when sitting in the seat, you can lie back onto the rear deck without lifting your butt (much) out of the seat.

Two of the reasons I upgraded my 14 ft kayak were its wide beam and high deck. A "high volume" kayak gets blown more in wind and is harder to roll (relative! Yes, I learned a very reliable roll in it! ...but it was still harder to roll than most kayaks).

Don't buy the kayak you need now. Buy a kayak with some room to grow in with respect to skills and activities.

First decide what sort of paddling activities you see yourself doing in the future. Then ask about which boats are suitable.

My poorly informed guess is that the Merlin won't be as fast as you hope and picture of the Merlin and its load capacity suggest to me that it won't be the easiest boat to learn to roll in. However, if you paddle it and are happy with its speed and other factors, any boat can be rolled and it should be easier than the one I eventually learned in.

It is worth noting that the Merlin looks a lot like the Eddyline kayak that I happened to be paddling next to a few weeks ago. The guy was looking to upgrade because he felt it was slow. I was able to easily out-pace him with my Valley Anas Acuta which is not known for being fast.

Cheers!

Ty

[risingsn]

Looks like my "Back" button/history had the whole thing. lets try this again:

------------------------

You can do a wide variety of things close to shore.

While, I suspect that Leon's perspective is a bit more speed biased than most, if you want to be able to cover distance, that kayak will may prove to be on the short and wide side of things. That said, I paddled a 14ft x 24in kayak for 3-4 years and covered a good bit of open ocean with it. I now paddle a 17ft x 20in kayak.

Do you want to do relaxing tours in sheltered water?

Do you want to do reasonable distance tours, possibly in unprotected waters?

Do yo want to surf?

Do you want to play in rocks?

You mentioned rolling.

Don't sell yourself short if you present confidence and skill level make any of the above intimidating. There are plenty of ways to build the needed skills. ...and this board is a great place to find those ways.

The kayak you are looking at might be a good fit for you. ...or it might not, as I suspect it won't be much faster than the one you had.

Length is not all about carrying capacity. That 15 footer you are looking at has all the capacity and displacement of a well designed/balanced 17-18 footer. It achieves its capacity with a wide beam and probably a high deck.

You mentioned rolling. I doubt there is a kayak out there (that you can stay in when upside down) that can't be rolled. However, if you want to make rolling easier, find a kayak with a lower deck, esp. the rear deck. Given the carrying capacity of that kayak, I suspect that the deck is higher than ideal for rolling. Ideally, when sitting in the seat, you can lie back onto the rear deck without lifting your butt (much) out of the seat.

Two of the reasons I upgraded my 14 ft kayak were its wide beam and high deck. A "high volume" kayak gets blown more in wind and is harder to roll (relative! Yes, I learned a very reliable roll in it! ...but it was still harder to roll than most kayaks).

Don't buy the kayak you need now. Buy a kayak with some room to grow in with respect to skills and activities.

First decide what sort of paddling activities you see yourself doing in the future. Then ask about which boats are suitable.

My poorly informed guess is that the Merlin won't be as fast as you hope and picture of the Merlin and its load capacity suggest to me that it won't be the easiest boat to learn to roll in. However, if you paddle it and are happy with its speed and other factors, any boat can be rolled and it should be easier than the one I eventually learned in.

It is worth noting that the Merlin looks a lot like the Eddyline kayak that I happened to be paddling next to a few weeks ago. The guy was looking to upgrade because he felt it was slow. I was able to easily out-pace him with my Valley Anas Acuta which is not known for being fast.

Cheers!

Ty

I think this is a great boat that fills the gap between a rec boat & a sea kayak. I have paddled it (I'm 5'7 #152). I have found Carbonlite to be pretty bullet proof, coming off a trailer @ speed & taking very little damage (no, I didn't tie it on).

As to speed. About a year ago someone took the resistance results from reviews that Sea Kayaker Mag had done & plotted them on a chart, Sea Kayaker published the result. Based on that, it appears that most boats are very close in speed until after they go above 4 knot (yes, a 12' Heritage will be a dog). Yes, of course the motor will make a difference.

If you like the fit & feel, I think this boat will take you a long way in developing you skill & will be an upgrade from you WS.

Enjoy!

[FrankR]

Thanks very much for the feedback.

Leon, with all respect, the speed issue seems like a red herring to me - I suspect one would need to have a sustained power stroke to make a real difference. I also suspect that issues like boat weight, shape and material are also important. If I recall, there's a very distinctive wave form that you can see at hull speed - and I don't remember seeing that on a kayak very often.

(What might be interesting would be some sort of real world test - for example, get 3 or 4 paddlers, each in a different size boat and have them race each other a fixed distance - then repeat several times until each paddler gets a different boat - see if one boat consistently outpaced the others, regardless of paddler. Then of course, you'd have to repeat on different days in different conditions...)

Boat handling in rough water is certainly something to consider.

Ty and Chuck - very much appreciate your long detailed feedback.

I guess the bottom line is that it looks like a boat I can afford now (cost is a significant issue) and while not perfect, should be good to get me back on the water. If it doesn't work out, I can always sell it and try something else - its just another step on the journey.

The only remaining issue is the durability of 6 year old thermo-form plastic (CarbonLite). I saw the boat and it looks pretty solid (and I think it fits me) - but tomorrow I'll call Eddyline and see if they have any sort of expected lifetime for the stuff.

[subaruguru]

Hi Frank,

I wouldn't discount Leon's comments so readily. His knowledge and experience with myriad hulls is comprehensive and extensive... and his "motor" doesn't seem to age!

What's not explicitly stated is that the combination of your mass and the Merlin's dimensions and its moderately steep "V" hull will probably result in very little glide efficiency, although tracking and primary may be decent because of the increased wetted surface from your weight.

You'll perhaps then find it "understeering" sluggishly, especially in chop, as it's not long enough to have a longer bow help you out against the deep "v" you displace.

In other words it sounds like Tsunami redux.

There are now more of choices in the 17-18 x 22-23 size for big guys with 12 feet.

Great kayaks that come to mind are the Explorer HV (ask Barry M), the Nigel Foster Shadow (ask Jason), as well a couple of others. You'll probably fit in a Cetus (ask Doug M) and maybe a Force 5 (you can try mine) too. These are all just old enough now to have a developed used market.

Most of us have wended our ways through multiple 'yak ownership while advancing skills. Maybe the average is 3-5 hulls in that many years initial experience.

We're just trying to shorten and de-kink the path for you.

I'd suggest you visit and chat up vendors who are still open unloading used and rental inventories (like CRCK), and paddle just about anything that you can fit into from what's available. It'd be probably be better for you to skip the M XT and get a cheap used plastic Tempest 170 or similar (Capella 173?) for awhile. You'll learn a lot in it, and then have great perspective for evaluating fancy composite hulls later on.

Hope to see you on the water soon.

[leong]

Thanks very much for the feedback.

Leon, with all respect, the speed issue seems like a red herring to me - I suspect one would need to have a sustained power stroke to make a real difference. I also suspect that issues like boat weight, shape and material are also important. If I recall, there's a very distinctive wave form that you can see at hull speed - and I don't remember seeing that on a kayak very often.

(What might be interesting would be some sort of real world test - for example, get 3 or 4 paddlers, each in a different size boat and have them race each other a fixed distance - then repeat several times until each paddler gets a different boat - see if one boat consistently outpaced the others, regardless of paddler. Then of course, you'd have to repeat on different days in different conditions...)

Boat handling in rough water is certainly something to consider.

Ty and Chuck - very much appreciate your long detailed feedback.

I guess the bottom line is that it looks like a boat I can afford now (cost is a significant issue) and while not perfect, should be good to get me back on the water. If it doesn't work out, I can always sell it and try something else - its just another step on the journey.

The only remaining issue is the durability of 6 year old thermo-form plastic (CarbonLite). I saw the boat and it looks pretty solid (and I think it fits me) - but tomorrow I'll call Eddyline and see if they have any sort of expected lifetime for the stuff.

Frank, my comment was not intended to make speed an issue for you. It was just a response to your statement “what's the point of 17' if I'm not planning on carrying much more than lunchâ€. I didn’t want you to think that purpose of increasing a boat’s length was necessarily to increase its weight carrying capacity or volume. I also stated that the length of a kayak affects how it handles (especially in rough water). Of course, this is obvious.

But I’ll say a little more about speed here. Every boat has a power vs. speed curve. Below some speed a short boat may require less power to propel it than a longer boat, mainly due to less wetted surface area that lowers the frictional resistance. As Risingsn said, at some speed (generally about 4.5 MPH) most boats require about the same power to propel them. As the speed increases above this point, eventually the wave resistance becomes much more significant than the frictional resistance. Then, for a given paddling power output (and everything else being equal), the longer boat will go faster than the shorter boat That’s all I meant with respect to speed. I wasn’t advocating that speed should be a concern to you.

Later in the thread you said “I suspect one would need to have a sustained power stroke to make a real difference.†and “If I recall, there's a very distinctive wave form that you can see at hull speed - and I don't remember seeing that on a kayak very often.â€.

Perhaps, the best way to answer this is to put in some numbers *. For instance, let’s compare the Seda Ikuma 17 against the Epic 18. Say you have just enough power to propel the Ikuma 17 at 4.5 knots (incidentally, that power is approximately 067 horsepower). With the same power applied to the Epic 18 you would go at a speed of approximately 4.85 knots. If you’re racing this is significant. If you’re trying to get back to your car before the thunderstorm begins it’s also significant. Most of the increase in speed is due to the longer waterline length of the Epic 18. Using the formula 1.34 times the square root of the waterline length in feet of the Epic 18, you get a hull (displacement) speed of almost 5.7 knots. But, as shown, the longer waterline length helped you go faster than the Ikuma 17, way below the hull speed. That is, even if you don't have enough power to bring the boat to its hull speed, the higher hull speed helps you go faster.

Of course, if you’re not planning to race (or to go fast for the fun of it), then speed isn’t that important. Besides, in general, faster hull-speed boats (that are faster only due to longer waterline lengths) require more power at lower speeds (because of an increase in frictional resistance). So for low-speed paddling a shorter boat may be preferable. But a short and fat recreational boat may require more power even at the lower speeds, because of the high frictional resistance due to a large wetted surface area.

* Note, I used a spreadsheet provided by Lisa Huntington to generate the numbers. Lisa’s spreadsheet is based on Matt Broze’s drag prediction program (copyright 1999) for narrow hulls.

[tyson]

... get me back on the water.

...and that is the most important criteria!

[EEL]

...and that is the most important criteria!

Exactly. Try the boat and see if it works for you. All this waterline length and other stuff is a distraction to what matters. Call Eddyline and ask about the boat in terms of whether you and your anticipated use are a good match. Chances are you will get to talk to the owner/designer or his wife and they are direct /honest people. Eddyline boats are, usually, well designed and built.

If it is anything like a regular Merlin, but for bigger people then it most decidedly is not slow, is seaworthy, a bit beyond a beginner's boat, and would do just fine on a typical club paddle. Personally not my cup of deal, especially the cockpit outfitting...I actually paddled the boat once at a demo day, but it is a nice boat.

FWIW, the waterline length of a boat is only one of many factors that determine how "fast" and/or "efficient" a hull is compared to another.

Ed Lawson

[subaruguru]

Exactly. Try the boat and see if it works for you. All this waterline length and other stuff is a distraction to what matters. Call Eddyline and ask about the boat in terms of whether you and your anticipated use are a good match. Chances are you will get to talk to the owner/designer or his wife and they are direct /honest people. Eddyline boats are, usually, well designed and built.

If it is anything like a regular Merlin, but for bigger people then it most decidedly is not slow, is seaworthy, a bit beyond a beginner's boat, and would do just fine on a typical club paddle. Personally not my cup of deal, especially the cockpit outfitting...I actually paddled the boat once at a demo day, but it is a nice boat.

FWIW, the waterline length of a boat is only one of many factors that determine how "fast" and/or "efficient" a hull is compared to another.

Ed Lawson

Ed,

Allow me to play devil's advocate here, for Frank's benefit:

How is Frank going to know if it "works for you"? I remember going from a Pungo to a 14 1/2' "transitional" yak after a week, only to have that replacement be replaced by a Looksha IV within a month of paddling.

Yes, the XT is big enough for his mass, and has a nice long waterline mitigating the need for a skeg or rudder MOST of the time, but do you really want to send Frank along on L3 club trips with it?

IMO it's strictly a flatwater inner harbor craft that may be great IF that's his intended purpose. But

I suspect the odds are great that it'll be owned for a very short period as Frank will want to get a "real" seaworthy yak within weeks or months.

We're just trying to save him from having to resell his next kayak so soon.

OTOH $600 is cheap to just get back on the water, and of course at that price the XT is easily resold. So I agree with you.

Maybe Frank just needs to decide if he wants to have a short rec boat, possibly taking a "baby step" toward ocean-going kayaking, or skip that step and learn to paddle a quasi endpoint real (uh-oh?!) seakayak.

We're all just trying to help, and each path is, by definition, individual.

Later: just found a video of the XT: seems to track well, showing a bit of flex, though:

http://www.google.com/search?q=merlin+xt&a...80187d6f0589da0

[EEL]

Allow me to play devil's advocate here

Wait a minute Ernie, I thought my role was that of devil's advocate.

How is Frank going to know if it "works for you"?

I had the impression Frank would be able to know if the boat fit and felt good on the water doing whatever he liked doing for now.

but do you really want to send Frank along on L3 club trips with it?

Well, its the paddler not the boat and I don't know Frank so I can't say. I think it would be fine on the typical NSPN level 3 trip..whatever that is.

IMO it's strictly a flatwater inner harbor craft ...

I guess we have different views on what constitutes a seaworthy kayak. I have seen a Merlin LT used on trips that are easily level 3 and assume the XT is a solid seaworthy boat as well.

OTOH $600 is cheap to just get back on the water, and of course at that price the XT is easily resold. So I agree with you.

I think we both agree on the big point. I assume everyone goes through a series of boats as their interests, etc. change. It does not mean the first boats are bad or not capable. Our tastes may change. So buying a used inexpensive boat makes a great deal of sense. You can beat it up, modify it to see how various things work or don't and along the way learn what you like and don't like in a boat all the while learning how to paddle. I'm having great fun doing this with a 15 year old boat that I bought for a similar price.

With regard to what constitutes a good boat,

this weekend I had some experiences which led to a "Yogism" .

You don't know how good a bad boat is until you know how bad a good boat can be.

Ed Lawson