Rolling with Greenland Stick

[brambor]

Yesterday at a pool session I tried to roll with a greenland paddle. First 2 tries were fails. The stick felt slow when doing a sweep until I realized my blad is not flat on the water. Then I just let the blade float next to the kayak before I started the sweep. This helped and I was able to roll up on the third try. Subsequent rolls were good with occassional fails. What I liked was that I was able to also come back on the sweep if I felt I did not have the lift I needed.

I then tried to roll on my off side. After 3 tries I was able to do this. I have realized that my off side might be really my strong side. The roll appeared easier. I did severall rollls on both sides and then it was time to go. I'm itching to do this again next weekend. I don't want to forget this.

My question is about the hold of the greenland paddle with the inside hand. I was holding the paddle by the tip of the blade and then someone suggested I hold the paddle about 5 inches down the blade. When I asked why the person wasn't sure only to say that is what they always heard should be done.

?

[Doug]

You grip the paddle a few inches from the tip to maintain a constant reference of the blade angle and for better overall control during your sweep. Have fun with your new paddle. I think they are a blast. I still use my euro blade for surfing however.

[bob budd]

I neither am a greenland expert nor do I mean to contradict Doug. I can grip the paddle on the flat portion of the blade because my hand is more than big enough. If I grip the end I know exactly where my hand is (i.e. how close to the end) which is a plus. If I grip the flat portion of the blade it is easier, quicker, etc. to return to the normal position. I would make sure your hand is comfortable, has adequate control, etc. on the blade and compare the two. I'd make a point of trying both (or all) options when learning a new technique because the best technique for you may not be what the nearest expert would do.

Now, if you are having trouble with the extended paddle roll it might mean your paddle position is not the only issue that needs improvement. (Excuse the apparent digression) When I started rolling I was told several times to learn to snap my hip, yet after several frustrated lessons and no hip snap I rolled with a sweep. A while later I took up the greenland stick because it seemed to break bad habits with the euro paddle. I then found the buoyancy allowed me to reach out and brace almost effortlessly and/or pop up without any sort of sweep or similar paddle motion. And I had learned how to hip snap. Ultimately I no longer use a Euro paddle but have since learned to sweep roll from "combat position", i.e. with hands on the shaft as if paddling. More than anything else, this requires a slightly better rolling techique. (End apparent digression) Now that you are beginning to roll, etc. greenland style I would suggest you try to find the (Walden) pond scum this spring and get some pointers. You might convince someone to come to a pool session. The best way to break bad habits is not to learn them in the first place.

[Brian Nystrom]

The stick felt slow when doing a sweep until I realized my blad is not flat on the water. Then I just let the blade float next to the kayak before I started the sweep.

One of the most important things to learn about rolling with a GP is to slow down. If one is used to rolling with a Euro blade, the tendency is to go quickly and use abrupt motions. A GP responds better when you slow down and use the lift that the blade generates. If you push it too fast, you can get aeration and stalling, both of which kill lift. Rolling with a GP is a smooth, relaxing motion that should be basically effortless, at least when doing a standard roll.

I then tried to roll on my off side.

Your mistake here is thinking that you have "on" and "off" sides. Thinking this way creates the expectation that one side is going to be more difficult than the other, which as you discovered, is not necessarily the case. It may feel different left to right, but the technique is identical so there is no reason that one side should be more difficult than the other. Using those terms (which I despise) simply sets up a psychology/rationalization for failure. I suggest that every paddler banish those terms from their paddling vocabulary and simply refer to left and right side rolls.

My question is about the hold of the greenland paddle with the inside hand. I was holding the paddle by the tip of the blade and then someone suggested I hold the paddle about 5 inches down the blade. When I asked why the person wasn't sure only to say that is what they always heard should be done.

You're doing the same thing most people do when learning to roll with a GP on their own. If you've been doing extended paddle rolls with a Euro paddle, the only place you can hold the blade is by the tip, so you naturally do it with the GP, too. Holding it by the blade forces you to keep your hands in a "chin-up" position during the sweep, which promotes a proper layback as well. Once you get a feel for it, you will roll effortlessly.

[Pintail]

Brambor, I would second every thing that BN advises and I might add that, once you have mastered a slow, easy, comfortable Greenland roll (emphasizing the work of your torso and keeping the pressure exerted on the paddle <light>), THEN you will likely find that you can go back to rolling with your "euro" paddle, held in the normal paddling grip, and roll quite easily and effortlessly -- in fact, that will be the test of whether or not you are rolling with your torso or not, won't it?

Many people I know have fabulous "combat" rolls and can pop up in milliseconds -- I say it doesn't matter one iota: a slow, relaxed, torso/thigh roll is far preferrable and easier on your body...

[brambor]

Thanks for all the tips. I really appreciate the expertise here.

Maybe I'll make it to the Walden Pond scum someday but being in Maine it is a little bit out of reach for weekday.

[spider]

ahh the "off side" words...some believe it doesn't exist. While I can see the power of positive thinking or wanting to think in terms as having two good sides..

I tend to look at it this way .

Take a baseball.... give it a good wind up and throw the ball.

now

Take the ball put it in the other hand give it a good wind up and throw the ball.

Same motions but same results ?

very few people are the same equall in both attempts...

but many people can learn to throw or bat etc on either side equally.

...then again many people can not...they favor one side or the other.

the on side

and the "off side"

course you can be skipping stones... shooting hoops.... rolling...opps

[brambor]

I'm left handed but for many things I appear to be right handed. I learned not to think of which side is the right side. This has its advantages and also drawbacks. The drawbacks turn into nice surprises sometimes. The 'off side' roll last Saturday was one of them.

ahh the "off side" words...some believe it doesn't exist. While I can see the power of positive thinking or wanting to think in terms as having two good sides..

I tend to look at it this way .

Take a baseball.... give it a good wind up and throw the ball.

now

Take the ball put it in the other hand give it a good wind up and throw the ball.

Same motions but same results ?

very few people are the same equall in both attempts...

but many people can learn to throw or bat etc on either side equally.

...then again many people can not...they favor one side or the other.

the on side

and the "off side"

course you can be skipping stones... shooting hoops.... rolling...opps

[EEL]

You may find these videos of interest/value regarding your questions.

http://www.kayakways.net/standardroll.html

http://www.qajaqusa.org/Movies/movies.html

Turner and Cheri live in Maine, and they are excellent instructors.

Ed Lawson

[Deb Millar]

ahh the "off side" words...some believe it doesn't exist. While I can see the power of positive thinking or wanting to think in terms as having two good sides..

I tend to look at it this way .

Take a baseball.... give it a good wind up and throw the ball.

now

Take the ball put it in the other hand give it a good wind up and throw the ball.

Same motions but same results ?

very few people are the same equall in both attempts...

but many people can learn to throw or bat etc on either side equally.

...then again many people can not...they favor one side or the other.

the on side

and the "off side"

course you can be skipping stones... shooting hoops.... rolling...opps

While we do all have a "stronger" side and a "weaker" side, the reason we may use the term "other" side when teaching or learning rolling is simply that it's a more positive term for an activity that some people can have difficulty doing. "Off" sets up a negative idea in a person's head. Since learning to roll and rolling itself has a lot to do with one's noggin and one's perception of the "black art" as it's sometimes called, keeping things on a positive, i.e. "other side" might help the process.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I know that I roll my boat a lot more often than I actually throw things and calling my less-used side my "other" side makes it a lot easier when I'm caught upside down and have to come up on the "other" side of my boat.

Or that's how it's worked for me, especially when I was learning to roll on my "other" side, which is actually better as I've had to train myself with a bit more technical discipline.

Deb M

[brambor]

Why not then just call it the left side and the right side?

just wondering...I think that's what I will start using. Rolling up on the left side...rolling up on the right side.

While we do all have a "stronger" side and a "weaker" side, the reason we may use the term "other" side when teaching or learning rolling is simply that it's a more positive term for an activity that some people can have difficulty doing. "Off" sets up a negative idea in a person's head. Since learning to roll and rolling itself has a lot to do with one's noggin and one's perception of the "black art" as it's sometimes called, keeping things on a positive, i.e. "other side" might help the process.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I know that I roll my boat a lot more often than I actually throw things and calling my less-used side my "other" side makes it a lot easier when I'm caught upside down and have to come up on the "other" side of my boat.

Or that's how it's worked for me, especially when I was learning to roll on my "other" side, which is actually better as I've had to train myself with a bit more technical discipline.

Deb M

[spider]

I know I tend to think in terms of right and left, (though not very nautical sounding) I used to get confused as to what side of the boat I was on... so right and left would just tell me what arm or hand I was leading with.

I am somewhat fortunate to be able to wonder if I roll more than toss things. Lucky to say probably abut 50/50. Learning to swap from being a right handed person to a left handed person for a couple of years. I would challenge myself with trying to pitch things. Never much thought of it as stronger / weaker but more the mechanics of the motions. Now that I kayak I can see the similarities of learning various motions or sequence of movements that can make it all come together..

Very nice, very excting when it all does flow together.

[Suz]

Why not then just call it the left side and the right side?

just wondering...I think that's what I will start using. Rolling up on the left side...rolling up on the right side.

WOW that would be more confusing 'cause then you would be having people ask - do you mean roll down on the right means I come up on the left so a right hand roll...

Personally - I think it doesn't matter what you call it but important that you practice both from the start rather than be satisfied with a roll on one side.

[gerry s]

I'm left handed but for many things I appear to be right handed. I learned not to think of which side is the right side. This has its advantages and also drawbacks. The drawbacks turn into nice surprises sometimes. The 'off side' roll last Saturday was one of them.

I'm with you. I was born left handed but growing up in a right handed world I learned (or adapted to ) doing things and using tools that just felt comfortable to me. I don't think righties have the same experience. Hence I'm told that I bat right, golf left, throw left , write left or right, roll mostly on my right, play tennis left (but much stronger backhand), think with the right hemi, ....you get the picture. My wife, the psychotherapist, says this explains a lot..what ever that means? Is that a left or right handed compliment.....or is it an insult?

[PeterB]

I'm with you. I was born left handed but growing up in a right handed world I learned (or adapted to ) doing things and using tools that just felt comfortable to me. I don't think righties have the same experience. Hence I'm told that I bat right, golf left, throw left , write left or right, roll mostly on my right, play tennis left (but much stronger backhand), think with the right hemi, ....you get the picture. My wife, the psychotherapist, says this explains a lot..what ever that means? Is that a left or right handed compliment.....or is it an insult?

Two star baseball players from my younger days-Rickey Henderson and Cleon Jones, threw left-handed and batted -right handed, a real oddity since batting lefty is a big advantage (most pitchers are righty)so one would normally bat lefty if already left handed. Rickey Henderson said he learned to bat righty because everybody else did and he didn't want to be different. With Cleon Jones, I think it had to do with the field he grew up playing on, (in Mobile Ala., same field as Hank Aaron) which had a short left field; easier to hit home runs batting righty.

Two great switch hitters were Mantle and Pete Rose. Maybe the ultimate switch hitter was Garry Templeton who ,one season, had 200 base hits (the standard for a real monster season) : one hundred batting left handed and one hundred batting righty.

In other words: most people do things either righty or lefty, but some do things righty and lefty . A few special cases do things really different.