tyson Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Tyson, I believe you are doing something wrong: <Additionally, in shallow water it can be difficult to get the kayak to flip over that lump under it (your head)> Your head should not <be> under the boat, should it? Whether you choose to roll from the forward position or the laid-back one, your head should surely be tucked upwards to the surface of the water, as far as possible, hence <alongside> the boat...(surely?) Am I perhaps misconstruing something here? You've missed my point. If your head is on the wrong side of the boat for an on-side roll and you don't have an off-side roll, you will need to get your head to the other side of the boat. Getting your head and paddle to the opposite side can be difficult in very shallow water. As a result, I suggest that rolling in shallows is trivial once you get past the distractions, but it might be necessary to have an off-side roll. Rolling in surf and shallows were motivations to learn my off-side. Cheers! Ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spider Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I used to go to Sandy Point, opposite Pavillion Beach, and watch the "zipper" that would form there. It would actually migrate up along the beach as the two currents met and make an actual line in the water somewhat zig-zaged. Not so much like an eddy line but a more linear line that would move in relation to the tide. I remember checking it out even before ever paddling there. Don't know if that's technically correct but alway thought that was a good place to observe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Up he comes swimming and splashing about with the "I don't know what to do" look on his face. "Try standing up" was my advice. He runs it through his head and says "Oh yes" stands up and walks the boat to shore. So what could have been an awkward moment turns out to be one of the best memories...it always brings a smile whenever the story is told. . Truth be told, since I don't roll yet, standing after a surf dump is my SOP! Poor galant Gene...that's a lot of dumps lately. And re mislocation, indeed, had we been in similar conditions south of Plum (approaching that amazing paddle Meeting Day) I doubt that ANY of us would've stayed upright, nor been able to walk away. This soup was about 1/2 the wind and about 1/3 the wave-height, depths, and current of that paddle. Glad I had a chance to play in more modest conditions. Never saw such a "zipper" at Annisquam.... Hope to repeat soon, drysuited this time. Ern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 "Poor galant Gene...that's a lot of dumps lately." Ern, as a serious musician you certainly know that galant refers to a light and elegant style of 18th Century music. Perhaps you meant the honorific "gallant"? My apologies to Pintail for jumping in where he usually treads! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazzert Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Poor galant Gene...that's a lot of dumps lately. If you ain't dumping you ain't trying hard enough. I kind of regret not taking the opportunity for some rescue practice in conditions. Barry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Ern, as a serious musician you certainly know that galant refers to a light and elegant style of 18th Century music. Perhaps you meant the honorific "gallant"? My apologies to Pintail for jumping in where he usually treads! G, Quelle horreur! I sometimes lapse between languages and used an alternate French spelling. Wish I could join you tomorrow. E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Ern, as a serious musician you certainly know that galant refers to a light and elegant style of 18th Century music. Perhaps you meant the honorific "gallant"? My apologies to Pintail for jumping in where he usually treads! G, Quelle horreur! I sometimes lapse between languages and used an alternate French spelling. Wish I could join you tomorrow. E Explique mon ami! There is no equivalence in galant (French) and gallant (English). Were you spelling French but thinking English? I'd have preferred brave but am crushed if you really meant "gentlemanly" especially with the ladies. Dan Rather used to say "courage" not "galanterie". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 <You've missed my point. If your head is on the wrong side of the boat for an on-side roll and you don't have an off-side roll, you will need to get your head to the other side of the boat. Getting your head and paddle to the opposite side can be difficult in very shallow water. As a result, I suggest that rolling in shallows is trivial once you get past the distractions, but it might be necessary to have an off-side roll> If the water is so shallow that you cannot move your torso and head from one side of your kayak to the other whilst upside-down, then I suggest that you'd be better off levering yourself upright <by hand>...oh, come on! You shouldn't BE rolling in shallow water -- it sounds as though you're looking for a headache! And perhaps a sore neck, too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Explique mon ami! There is no equivalence in galant (French) and gallant (English). Were you spelling French but thinking English? ...Indeed. I'd have preferred brave but am crushed if you really meant "gentlemanly" especially with the ladies. Dan Rather used to say "courage" not "galanterie". Let's just say that Mr Rather's possibly self-referential remark predated Cialis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 <You've missed my point. If your head is on the wrong side of the boat for an on-side roll and you don't have an off-side roll, you will need to get your head to the other side of the boat. Getting your head and paddle to the opposite side can be difficult in very shallow water. As a result, I suggest that rolling in shallows is trivial once you get past the distractions, but it might be necessary to have an off-side roll> If the water is so shallow that you cannot move your torso and head from one side of your kayak to the other whilst upside-down, then I suggest that you'd be better off levering yourself upright <by hand>...oh, come on! You shouldn't BE rolling in shallow water -- it sounds as though you're looking for a headache! And perhaps a sore neck, too? Geoffrey, Methinks Gene didn't realize at the time that he was in such shallow water. That's why I yelled at him to just stand up and walk over to the exposed sandbar a few yards away. Ern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Geoffrey, Methinks Gene didn't realize at the time that he was in such shallow water. That's why I yelled at him to just stand up and walk over to the exposed sandbar a few yards away. Ern The way to right yourself in shallow water is simply to brace against the bottom with the paddle and then, with head down, roll your hips to bring the boat under you -- in effect a supported roll. Trying to do it simply by pushing off the bottom, with your head up and your hips rigid may right you, but could give you a sore shoulder or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Trying to do it simply by pushing off the bottom, with your head up and your hips rigid may right you, but could give you a sore shoulder or worse. Not to mention damaging a $400+ wing paddle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scamlin Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I may be wrong, but I believe Clapotis is an explosive vertical uplift "wave" formed when the wave reflected off a cliff encounters an incoming wave. If you have seen a big one close up, you don't forget. BTW, wasn't someone tossed by one of these awhile back and their Avocet broken? I'm not one who plays in this stuff much, but isn't the moving uplifted wave formed when two waves, especially breaking waves, collide from different directions called a "zipper"? Ed Lawson A BCU no star who still thinks it worthwhile to know this stuff. Ed: The Avocet in question was done in by a zipper formed by a straight swell wrapping around either side of a sand bar off of Plum Island. So it was refraction, not reflection, but the principle of waves meeting and generating vertical lift were present. Not sure whether that meets the technical definition of clapotis. In any case, there are definitely no cliffs in the neighborhood. Actually, it was not the lift per se but different peaks violently lifting of both ends of the boat while leaving the middle unsupported that seemed to break the boat in the cockpit area. Just speculation, but the dynamic force of rapid vertical lift against the inertia of the paddler was a factor in creating the extreme stress. A glass Avocet suspended from the ends can easily support the static weight of a paddler. As for the paddler, he was not tossed, but stayed in the saddle as the boat bucked and cracked, then rode the broken beast to the beach with aplomb--and compassion. Give that cowboy a hand. Scott Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Give that cowboy a hand. Willie Nelson fans are everywhere or perhaps everyone is a fan. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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