Where do I sit in my seat?

[Phil Allen]

Ok, keen sense of the obvious question it seems, but maybe not? I normally sit in my boat with my butt at the rear of the seat pan, with little to no backband support and a loose connection to the foot pegs. This is comfortable and allows rotation and leg drive with each stroke. I can also connect the thighs with the thigh braces, though not solidly. My roll in this position is tentative, and I normally have to resort to the extended paddle roll.

Recently I've been trying to trouble shoot my roll, and yesterday I drove my butt position way forward on the seat. Suddenly, I'm much more solidly connected with my thighs on the thigh braces and my knees on the deck and my roll was almost effortless without going to the extended paddle. So, short of using genetic engineering to lengthen my stubby legs, should I just go back to using the backband, with it and the foot pegs in a more forward (3-4") position, or is this something that might be replicated by adding foam thigh hooks farther to the rear of the existing hooks? What is the forward seating position likely to do to the boat handling? Anybody else with short legs trick out there boat for better connection?

Thanks;

Phil

[Brian Nystrom]

You could install a backband or pad the rear bulkhead and leave it loose enough that you don't engage it until you're all the way back in the seat. Set your footpegs so that your legs can straighten with you feet more or less vertical. That will allow you to relax when you want to, but connect firmly with the thigh braces simply by bending your knees and flexing your feet forward. You could also remove the foot pegs and pad the forward bulkhead, leaving room to stretch between the pad and/or use multiple foot positions.

[scamlin]

Ok, keen sense of the obvious question it seems, but maybe not? I normally sit in my boat with my butt at the rear of the seat pan, with little to no backband support and a loose connection to the foot pegs. This is comfortable and allows rotation and leg drive with each stroke. I can also connect the thighs with the thigh braces, though not solidly. My roll in this position is tentative, and I normally have to resort to the extended paddle roll.

Recently I've been trying to trouble shoot my roll, and yesterday I drove my butt position way forward on the seat. Suddenly, I'm much more solidly connected with my thighs on the thigh braces and my knees on the deck and my roll was almost effortless without going to the extended paddle. So, short of using genetic engineering to lengthen my stubby legs, should I just go back to using the backband, with it and the foot pegs in a more forward (3-4") position, or is this something that might be replicated by adding foam thigh hooks farther to the rear of the existing hooks? What is the forward seating position likely to do to the boat handling? Anybody else with short legs trick out there boat for better connection?

Thanks;

Phil

I don't have short legs, but the issue you raise can occur for any paddler. It's a matter of fit, which is why people on this message board always say you need to paddle a boat before buying it. The fit in the cockpit is the most important characteristic of the boat.

It sounds like the distance between your back band and your knee and foot support is too long for you. Normally, you need three points of solid contact for both boat control: back of butt, knees/thighs and feet.

Solid contact with the footrests is also important for paddling efficiency: the drive you mention requires solid contact with the boat, usually with the feet as you push the boat past the planted paddle blade.

To get good contact, you can move the foot pegs back towards you to get solid foot contact, but in most kayaks, you can't move the thigh braces back (some models adjustable thigh braces). So your option is to move the entire seat/back band forward (which involves a new seat) or rig some thigh braces that you can contact further aft.

Whether you sit forward or back is not relevant to boat control as long as you have the three points of contact. However, it is relevant to boat trim (balance of the boat fore and aft in the water). The location of the seat--and thus your center of gravity--is carefully designed along with the rest of the boat by the manufacturer. Moving the seat forward, even an inch or two, will affect trim, which in turn affects things like turning and weathercocking. The changes won't be dramatic, so don't get too concerned about them. Putting a couple of water bottles in the rear hatch would compensate. Lack of good contact with the boat has much more influence on your paddling.

Hopes this helps.

Scott

[EEL]

I normally sit in my boat with my butt at the rear of the seat pan, with little to no backband support and a loose connection to the foot pegs. This is comfortable and allows rotation and leg drive with each stroke. I can also connect the thighs with the thigh braces, though not solidly. My roll in this position is tentative, and I normally have to resort to the extended paddle roll.

..... So, short of using genetic engineering to lengthen my stubby legs, should I just go back to using the backband, with it and the foot pegs in a more forward (3-4") position, or is this something that might be replicated by adding foam thigh hooks farther to the rear of the existing hooks?

Since I have never seen the outfitting in your boat, how you fit in the boat, nor what happens when you roll, the following are just speculative musings.

It sounds as if your current position is comfy and efficient for what you are doing in the boat almost all of the time so why change to something that might well be less comfy and efficient?

Especially if it means a more cramped/frog leg position while routinely paddling.

Why not add more foam to the thigh hooks and perhaps add a more aggressive curve to give more positive grip? Personally I would also add foam so that you knee cap cannot touch anything when you are pressing into the thigh hooks and your thigh starting about an 1" or so behind the knee and going toward you for about 4" is the are of primary contact. How tight or loose you need to be to roll well might be a function of your technique and style. Those observing you might be able to provide some pointers for easier rolling in a looser boat assuming you have good technique to start with. Of course, maybe you just need a tighter fit, but I would try extra foam before getting radical.

Hopefully the manufacturer placed the location of the seat for a reason and moving it even a couple of inches can make a big difference in handling...especially weather/lee cocking. You can "correct" the impact with ballast, but that may cause handling to change in other ways and not for the better.

Ed Lawson

[Phil Allen]

Thanks for the comments folks.

I intend to try the forward seating position as an experiment (no seat moving for now), and will likely add some more curvature to the existing thigh braces with foam. I started with a well connected foot, knee- thigh, butt position and as I've gotten more comfortable, I've relaxed that quite a bit. Maybe too much. As for the "fitting in the boat" comments some made, all paddling is an evolution. This is my first boat, and I've been using it several years. What was appealing when I was a newbie may be limiting as I've gained experience. But it's the only boat I've got for now so I want to figure out how to make it work.

Thanks again.

Phil

[tyson]

I started with a well connected foot, knee- thigh, butt position and as I've gotten more comfortable, I've relaxed that quite a bit. Maybe too much.

I went through the same thing. My first fitting to my boat had a white water influence to it and I put in some tight hip pads and pull the foot braces up close. I found that for long distance that didn't work well and I no longer need it for rolling.

As for the "fitting in the boat" comments some made, all paddling is an evolution. This is my first boat, and I've been using it several years. What was appealing when I was a newbie may be limiting as I've gained experience. But it's the only boat I've got for now so I want to figure out how to make it work.

I wish I had chosen my first boat as well as you did. I'm, shall we say, "in the same boat". However, I also got a few years out of my first boat and now know better what I want next. ...though not exactly yet.

Cheers!

Ty

[Pintail]

Phil, I agree with all that Brian and Ed have suggested for you -- the thigh-area padding sounded like the obvious thing to me, also. Remember that when you sit <forwards> you are going to cause an effect on the trim of the boat (if only slight): the designer has placed it where he thinks it should be, after all. Why not try moving your footpegs towards you, slightly, with your backside firmly in place? Unlike the seat, they <are> adjustable!

Regarding the padding for your hips: no need to make yourself really tightly-wedged. If you do, then rolling, balance-bracing and sculling on your back will all be <more difficult>. The Inuit were not tightly wedged-in, apparently. So I read...

[kate]

Just one more thought that may or may not apply - can't tell because I didn't actually see your seat position.

I'm wondering if the more forward position also made it possible to lay back more during your roll. Many boats have too high of a rear cockpit coaming. If you are sitting back in the seat in such a boat, it's hard to lean back over the back of the boat at the end of a roll. Sliding forward would let you lean back farther, increasingly lowering your center of gravity so that the boat would roll more easily. This might have been working in conjunction with the tighter leg grip on the boat.

I'm very loosely outfitted in my sea kayak - minimally, even (no hip padding at all, one layer of thin foam over the thigh braces - for comfort more than fit - , and a foam bulkhead with no footpegs). But I can lay way back on the back deck without the coaming obstructing me.

Great to hear that you now know it can be effortless! I'm sure you'll dial it in.

Kate

[spider]

Lots of good advice from folks far more knowledgable than myself. I just wanted to mention that no matter what you do with your seat or seating position You want to land in the seat, not on the front edge or up on the high part on the back of the seat if you take a "bumpy ride". Doesn't much matter how you might get jostled about in your boat, surf,rolling, ww or whatever.

If you get bounced out of your seat it can hurt big time if you come slaming down on your tail bone or other delicate areas we won' quite mention.

Thinking I didn't want the back of my seat and hadn't changed it out for a back band, I just did without anything in the back. Loved the extra manoverability till the 1st time I landed half on the seat and half hanging off the back edge..that was one big ouch!

...only other thing I can think of...my boat didn't have much of a thigh hook..before I knew the names of the different paddings availabe I saw what seemed a nice pad with a hook shape and glued it into where I wanted it in my boat. Later on I realized it was a hip pad like in ww boats that I had glued upside down under my hull. In that case ignorance was bliss and it worked great. ..you never know what might work for you...

Good luck.

[cgr]

Phil,

So you had a tight fit initially and have backed off from that for torso rotation? Maybe you have gone from one extreme to another? Perhaps try bringing the footpegs towards the rear one position at a time so that you are still relaxed, but can push on the balls of your feet when needed to lock yourself in?

I agree with what Kate says about the height of the back deck, I had the same issue moving from my Tempest to the Serenity. I am still working on my roll in the new(to me) boat. You can also try to sitting on some foam to raise you in the seat and see if that helps you get more clearance. It does raise the center of gravity and make the boat less stable, but if you're at walden or other flat water try it out.

[subaruguru]

more forward (3-4") position, ...

Phil,

3-4" is HUGE!...

You didn't mention (and I can't remember even from last week's paddle with you!) your kayak, so it's a bit tricky to speak of cockpit geometry options.

Although it's mentioned a couple of times that the designer knows where to put the seat, I tend to think this is simply a guess for the middle of the curve of body weights, torso heights, arm lengths, thigh thickness and length...even foot size! The only adjustability generally offered is calf length, via adjustable pegs or custom bulkheads. Poppycock!

I note from personal experience seeing:

... Two kayak clones with factory seats haphazardly pinned more than an inch different!

... Asymmetrical seat pinning, where the seat actually sits crooked!

... After I repinned a stock seat forward TWO inches to create a more comfy layback ability and mitigate a floppy hammering bow in heavy chop, and thus got really snug up against thigh hooks, I found that weathercocking suffered. Moving it back an inch (between the first two pin "settings") has proved quite ideal. Taming the bouncing bow was easily accomplished simply by weighting the FRONT hatch instead of the rear in normal use.

(This was in a Cetus, which, given its significant Swede form, I didn't expect to have such a "loose" bow. Shows to go ya....)

... Many (most?) surfskis have adjustable rails for seat position to perfect trim, which I guess is really important for efficiency in very long waterline craft.

... Obviously, when folks remove their OE seats and install others, changes in vertical center of gravity often occur (for most of us non-racers lower is more stable, and thus better); but don't we realize that the forward axis (trim) cog is often up for grabs, depending upon several characteristics of the new seat?

I don't have much experience with many seat options, but recently swapped in a P&H Cetus stock seat into my Impex Force5 with great success. Since the seat "hanger" geometry is quite different between the two manufacturers, deciding where to initially pin the new seat was a crapshoot. After a few paddles I moved it just one inch (yes, redrilling holes in the plastic seat's "hanger lips" wasn't that hard), and now find that the only difference between my Cetus and Force5 is the HULL. So I'm happy.

So I'd especially take Kate's comment re layback geometry, but otherwise experiment with positioning your seat EXACTLY where you want it re trim, weathercocking, bow control, etc., and then pad up your thighs and adjust your footpegs (or just get large thick hunks of pink foam (Home Depot) and make a temporary/permanent bulkhead!).

There really is NOTHING sacred about OE geometry. If you think about the required seat adjustability required in automobiles if easy to understand our need to tweak and tweak.

And I'm not even rolling yet! Oy....

Ern

[EEL]

There really is NOTHING sacred about OE geometry.

I agree with much of what you have said and certainly it makes sense to do minor seat tweaking (moving an inch or so)given the fact that given models of sea kayaks are not made in a variety sizes to fit different sized paddlers. WW folks are way ahead in this area.

However, I suspect that most manufacturers, especially for new models, had done a fair bit of computer modeling and testing. As a result, they have positioned the seat to get the handling they desired with the intended range of paddler weight and load. Specifically, I believe it is a bad idea to move a seat, other than minimally to tweak, so that the cockpit/thigh braces fit better. Seat position determines the LCB which in turn is a important determinant of how a boat performs given other hull factors. The seat position is not determined on the basis of getting the paddler to fit the cockpit outfitting. The cockpit outfitting should be done to get the paddler to fit properly once the seat is the right position. In production boats this is can be not easy or feasible. As you noted, once you get the LCB wrong by moving a seat too much, you have to add ballast to get it back to where it should be and that can start a cascade of issues.

If you have a custom boat built, especially a Greenland boat, everything about fitting the boat to you starts with the location of the balance point or LCB. Once you have that point, foot rests, back band, masik or thigh bracing is then positioned to assure you sit in that location. Which is also why some on this thread have emphasized the importance of getting a boat that fits. Of course one can debate endlessly the preferences/rights/wrongs of what constitutes a correct fit.

Ed Lawson

[subaruguru]

especially for new models, had done a fair bit of computer modeling and testing. As a result, they have positioned the seat to get the handling they desired with the intended range of paddler weight and load.

.....Hi Ed.

Designers can only work with the AVERAGE center of gravity of all paddlers within a load range. This is obvious to most of us wrt HEIGHT of CoG, as it affects tippiness and range of motion. Hence different boats (or seats) for different folks. But since body APPENDAGES vary so much, part of maintaining proper trim might involve seat movement as well as adjusting thigh padding, back bands, and of course foot position.

I remember how intrigued I was to see 1/2 foot of seat rail adjustment built into a KayakPro JET I had for awhile, in addition to about that much foot adjustment too! Huh?

I quickly learned adjusting BOTH was required to arrive at proper trim.

My new THINK Fit has a molded "bathtub" cockpit, and thus only adjustable foot pedals, making me wonder about tweaking trim. I learned to both increase comfort and arrive at proper trim by adding a cushion to the seat's back wall to push me forward a bit. This was a fairly crude adjustment, but effective, and perhaps mimicking what we sometimes do in seakayaks with tighter backbands, when what really might be better is to tweak the SEAT fore or aft a bit, as is of course automatically achieved when installing a fully customized seat.

I also suppose that those who load their kayaks more heavily for camping, or just to provide stability, might have more leeway with seat positioning too as they can counterbalance more easily with ballast placement. But if that radical an adjustment is required than maybe the paddler and kayak aren't a decent match to begin with.

I'm not a biomechanical engineer or a pro ergonomist (?), but I'm guessing that a short-limbed person might have a more REARWARD center of gravity when seated in a cockpit than a longer-limbed person of the same mass, simply because there's less legs and arms forward of their torso (especially when leaning into a forward stroke). Would it not make sense to consider tweaking the seat of this stockier paddler a bit forward to arrive at the design center of the manufacturer? Similarly a very tall paddler might want to push their seat back just a bit, again to arrive at proper design trim. The possibility that the stockier paddler then arrives at thigh purchase, and the taller one gets a bit more room, is just accidental icing on the cake, to be then tweaked with padding.

I know we're both saying the same thing, but I think seakayakers in general don't think much about how center of gravity affects trim simply because we paddle rockered hulls and can't so easily gauge angular error as compared to those 20 ft flat skis.

We're more apt to have varying takes on the same hull's "handling" and be puzzled as to why. Horizontal (axial?) trim is an often neglected element simply because most folks don't think it matters or is adjustable.

Hey, you ever paddle farther south? Love to see ya someday.

Ern

Ed Lawson

[EEL]

but I think seakayakers in general don't think much about how center of gravity affects trim

On that point, check out Explorer LVs on the next club paddle.

Ed Lawson