Why surf skis?

[binks]

Binks-

Clearly skis love the big water long period swells with sustained surfing possible. How much can they use the energy of the more typical short period chop we get around here? Just curious.

Thanks.

Phil

If the ski points downhill it will start surfing - wind chop or swell. Surfskiers will use the energy from windchop to gain enough speed to get onto larger, faster moving ocean swell. Even without the big stuff around here its possible to get good rides on the windchop alone.

Obviously there are many days, especially in the dog-days of Summer when there's nothing to surf on - hence outriggers and skis are much more popular in places with persistent wind patterns and larger waves, e.g. Hawaii.

[lhunt]

Binks - thanks! This was a big help. Also this article on your site NESurfski.net might be interesting to others.

Lisa

[Pintail]

Tyson, I can no longer find an earlier post that I thought you wrote, in which you mentioned racing sea kayaks, surfing in kayaks and rock-gardening in the same sentence; but please let us all know as soon as you find a boat that does all of the above! Perhaps you'll have to design it yourself...?

If you want to meet the great Oscar Chalupsky, then I am sure we can arrange it when he next comes to this neck of the woods! He'll soon tell you why surf skis are so great, I am certain.

Welkom hier terug, Doktor Binks, meneer! Dankie vir de twee baaie interessante poste. Lekker bly, ek se. (May I come and try one of your surf skis, one day? Regards, CG) (Go, Springboks!)

(Binks: I know you don't understand that; but you can work it out. You brought up South Africa, so there you go!)

[binks]

Welkom hier terug, Doktor Binks, meneer! Dankie vir de twee baaie interessante poste. Lekker bly, ek se. (May I come and try one of your surf skis, one day? Regards, CG) (Go, Springboks!)

(Binks: I know you don't understand that; but you can work it out. You brought up South Africa, so there you go!)

Danke Herr Godfrey.

You're welcome to visit the skis of Kennebunk any time, mate, give me a call. In terms of boats on the menu, I can offer 'stable', 'not so stable' and 'bugger-this, I'm going home'.

[rick stoehrer]

well after all this surfski talk i had to try....

spent a little over 2 hours on a surfski this weekend (so still an raw, raw noob but it offered some perspective) and was amazed at a couple things...in no particular order

1. rocket ship fast. if you were to think of sea kayaks as jeeps (rugged, go anywhere, do anything, lousy mileage) then surfski's would be a nascar. there is just no comparison between my explorer and the think evo i was on (mostly on anyways). the differences are startling.

2. the underhull rudder is a surfing dream. up to 90 degrgee's off, i was able to turn, catch and ride what little swell and boat wake there were to play in yesterday at the mouth of the 'mac. it was surprising to me that i was able to cach what little there was and ride it to pretty impressive speeds with a minimum of effort. at one point heading out, you come to that little sand spit jutting out on the PI side down by the mouth and as some of you know, it can get quite jumbly with the swell and wakes breaking on that bar....i surfed into the jumble to see what the ski was going to do....it surfed in, got bounced a bit but easilly maintained it's speed and we surfed out on that same bit of wave energy and completed the ride closer to the mouth quicker than i could be too concerned about the jumble. pretty cool.

3. stability in a surfski is a relative term. I fell off only once but nevertheless, i fell off. I haven't been in a sea kayak in a # of years that i found tender and yet i couldn't manage to stay on top of the surfski all day. without a way to hook your knee's you are really making micro adjustments through your stomach and back and then sweeping/bracing to try to bring one side of the boat or another back under you. it was a little disconcerting but something that would be overcome with time in the saddle.

4. the whole big water thing...eh, i've been sea kayaking for a long time and paddled some pretty grand water and come out well enough and most of the time, grinning and laughing and am very comfy in that particular boats sea-worthiness; as long as you can manage to stay in the boat and keep the skirt from imploding then you're all set. i understand the benefit of the ski draining and appreciate "speed is safety" and by god, ski's are just crazy fast BUT it was so very damn tippy i don't see how i'd ever get to the point where i had the same rock solid unmitigated faith in that craft that i do in sea kayaks. but i suspect that's just a matter of time and experience and if i were coming from a surf ski background very well might feel 180 degree's different.

5. you can't pack anything. you aren't camping outta one.

6. next time i go? no pfd. as comfy as mine is, it still limited motion.

7. <i think> that i needed to lock my heels and mid foot in better and that way transfer the stroke power better into the ski. as was, i was a bit loose and when i did extend my foot a bit to "lock" (and again, relative term - no deck) in, i sacrificed a bit of mid section mobility, ie loose hips, which i think are important in this type of paddling as well.

I FLIPPIN LOVED IT! I WANNA GO ON A LITTLE BIGGER DAY!

[Pintail]

Come on, Stoehrer-san, let's go and visit the good Doctor Binks!

[binks]

Come on, Stoehrer-san, let's go and visit the good Doctor Binks!

Yeeeesss. I have your medicine in the garage and nice patches of funky stuff off Kennebunk, and ample opportunity for a downwind run, should the need arise. C'mon up.

[tyson]

well after all this surfski talk i had to try....

Whoops!

I FLIPPIN LOVED IT! I WANNA GO ON A LITTLE BIGGER DAY!

Your comments are very close to inline with the experience that Emilie and I had. It sounds like you are a bit more experienced with tender hulls and so got a bit more out of it than we did, but we did have fun and Emilie now has a fast hull (though still a sit-in) and some more surf-ski rentals on her shopping list.

Oh, and the short version of what I had not realized before starting this thread:

1 - A spray skirt slows you down so, yes, a ski is faster.

2 - It is a different sport from either sea kayaking or traditional surfing. Speed matters so these machines are optimized to the nth degree for speed without a spray skirt.

Cheers!

Ty

[beanboy]

I wanted a fast boat after a bunch of kayaks/surfskis blazed by me in my first kayak race back in May 2008 (in Necky Manitou 13).

Spent some time in a handful of boats, Epic 18x, Think Evo, Think Fit, Epic V10S, and raced folks and looked over (but didn't paddle) Mohicans and Thunderbolts.

I ended up with V10S, and had a general liking towards the surfskis. Why?

Cost

It seems in general surfskis have more lower-end build options which are way cheaper and comparable builds seem to be at least a few hundred dollars cheaper than unlimited kayaks. I wanted a model with a fiberglass layer to help with any hard knock issues the boat might receive.

Exposed Cockpit

It is nice being able to throw feet off the side to gain stability or to go for a swim easily. Motorcycle versus car feeling perhaps? No need for pump/paddle float/spray skirt. Was also nice to know that as I work on my forward stroke I don't have any restrictions in terms of working on rotation, and that all surfskis (if I ever decide to move up) have basically the same type of cockpit: a molded seat and foot pedals.

As far as speed goes, don't think there is a much of a difference, at least on flatwater. As conditions "improve" the bigger volume bows of the surfskis come into play and I have a feeling would be faster.

I've had the surfski for over a year now, and other than recovering from sticker shock of the boat and wing paddle, have had a great time going out on day trips with local clubs (waterproof bag in front of pedals for clothing/lunch) as well as plenty of flatwater and a couple of ocean races.

[beanboy]

Came across an interesting blog post/comments about the differences between ocean racing and surfski racing:

http://www.surfski.info/content/view/1103/147/

"French Championships is a sea kayak race where the craft rules have been relaxed to allow the participation of surfskis. This is not a surfski race and should not be promoted as such. This is precisely why it is important to separate the discipline of surfski from Ocean Racing."

"needs to get the traditonalist Kayakers mindset around to the fact that Surfski is the fastest growing water sport in the world"

[leong]

This may not be the best place to ask, but I'm not a member on any surf ski boards.

Why are boats that require a swim if your balance fails you so popular?

Why do people believe that a sit-on-top kayak is faster than than a traditional sit-in kayak?

They seem to be popular for speed, yet I see no reason that a sit-in with the same hull and a lower seat (no need for self bailing) would be anything other than more stable and easier to paddle fast.

The difference that I see is that a sit-in offers more space to carry stuff for a day trip (if you care to), should be more stable and can be rolled if a wave takes you over.

I realize that leg straps are possible, but I'm not seeing them on the fast skis.

Thanks!

Ty

With all due respect to Andrew Binks (thanks for rescuing me from a failed roll years ago in the Blackburn), Ty makes a few good points and his question is valid. Although I agree with everything said by Andrew, one can make a case that HPKs (High Performance Kayaks) are about as fast as Surf Skis, perhaps slightly faster due to the slight drag on surf skis due to the necessary drain. Anyway, below I’ve summarized the data for the first three surf skis and first three HPKs that competed in each Blackburn Challenge from 1999 to 2009, inclusive. I removed the WestSide EFT kayak data since it’s not really a HPK. Also, I’ve removed Greg Barton data since he wins the racing class no matter which boat he uses. Let S denote a surf ski and K denote an HPK. Here are the results:

1999: SKSKSK: 11/4: (means there were 11 surf skis and 4 HPKs finishing and the first boat in was an S, the second boat in was a K, the third boat in was an S, etc.)

2000: SKKKSS: 7/4

2001: SSKKKS: 7/7

2002: SSSKKK: 8/8

2003: SSKKKS: 6/16

2004: SKKKSS: 8/4

2005: SSSK: 18/4 (the fourth S came in before the second K)

2006: SSSKKK: 14/5

2007: SSSKKK: 32/3

2008: SKSS: 29/3 (the fourth S came in before the second K)

2009: SSS: 39/0 (there were no Ks in the race)

Note, that although the S boats were generally ahead of the K boats, the time differences weren’t significant. Also, as the surf skis became more popular many of the K racer’s switched over to surf skis. My conclusion from the data is that there is no significant speed improvement of surf skis versus HPKs. I believe surf skis are becoming more popular due to the ease of re-entry versus a difficult roll in a HPK kayak using a wing paddle. Most fast HPKs don’t have sealed bulkheads and a failed roll is almost catastrophic.

[beanboy]

Great data...

Even with times being so close, have to remember once you get to the top finishers, seconds count. I think Westside touts an improvement of 5-8 seconds per mile of some models over others. Over 20 miles, that's a difference of under 3 minutes.

Gonna be tough to really answer the question on speed. Guess you could get a bunch in a boat tank and compare drag, but that doesn't answer the more important question about how the paddler does in the boat, nor fully answers question about rougher water performance.

Interesting thread, has me thinking back 18 months trying to remember my buying process. Also remember how the first time I was in a V10S, I couldn't turn my head to say hi to somebody on the bank of the Charles since I felt I was going to tip any second, hehe.

-B

[red pepper]

The answer to this question is that neither is inherently faster than the other - it depends on the specific hull design and a number of other factors. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I race a West Side Boat Shop Thunderbolt in USCA Open Class, and I also own a Think Evo surfski (plus I've spent some time in other skis).

Many of the West Side boats and the Van Dusen Mohican will run faster than most of the skis, and are often preferred for flat water racing. Skis are delicate, whereas the T-bolts and Mohicans are fairly tough. That makes a difference when you're racing on rivers with hidden rocks, logs, and sand bars. Most of us use an over-stern rudder as well (for those same reasons). Turning over on a shallow river is annoying and may cost you some time while you empty your boat, but it isn't the problem it would be if you were quite a distance off shore with a boat full of water!

Some other advantages I've found with the Thunderbolt include a lower center of gravity for the seat - it's right on the bottom of the hull (improved stability), the ability to change seats (seat fit is critical to your performance and stability - with a ski you're pretty much stuck with the molded-in seat and some padding), and a better setup for good rotation/leg drive. With my Onno pedals, I can push with the balls of my feet, rather than using my heels as must be done with many skis - a more powerful setup. Plus the contour of a ski doesn't always place you in the optimal position for a powerful stroke.

The skis really come into their own in big water, where as mentioned before they're easy to re-mount if you fall off, they take on very little water, and self-drain, plus they play well in the waves. I have a blast on larger water bodies with my ski!

It all depends on where you want to play!

[leong]

This may not be the best place to ask, but I'm not a member on any surf ski boards.

Why are boats that require a swim if your balance fails you so popular?

Why do people believe that a sit-on-top kayak is faster than than a traditional sit-in kayak?

They seem to be popular for speed, yet I see no reason that a sit-in with the same hull and a lower seat (no need for self bailing) would be anything other than more stable and easier to paddle fast.

The difference that I see is that a sit-in offers more space to carry stuff for a day trip (if you care to), should be more stable and can be rolled if a wave takes you over.

I realize that leg straps are possible, but I'm not seeing them on the fast skis.

Thanks!

Ty

Ty, I think you'd be interested in this: A sit-in kayak beat all of the surf skis (22 skis) in this year's (2011) Essex River race. The SIK was a West Side T-Rex, almost the fastest of all the West Side racing models. The T-Rex was up against many of the fastest surf ski racers in New England and beyond. I believe you’d see more SIKs win if more were used.

Leon

[tyson]

Ty, I think you'd be interested in this: A sit-in kayak beat all of the surf skis (22 skis) in this year's (2011) Essex River race. The SIK was a West Side T-Rex, almost the fastest of all the West Side racing models. The T-Rex was up against many of the fastest surf ski racers in New England and beyond. I believe you’d see more SIKs win if more were used.

Leon

I'll have to take a look at the results! I'm not sure if Emilie and I will have time to make the Blackburn this year.

[tyson]

Ty, I think you'd be interested in this: A sit-in kayak beat all of the surf skis (22 skis) in this year's (2011) Essex River race. The SIK was a West Side T-Rex, almost the fastest of all the West Side racing models. The T-Rex was up against many of the fastest surf ski racers in New England and beyond. I believe you’d see more SIKs win if more were used.

Leon

Looks like it was a VERY tight finish! They show 1 second between first and 2nd place, and they only measure to the second. I wonder just how close it was.

Cheers!

Ty

[beanboy]

Here's a write-up from some of the top finishers along with photos:

http://surfskiracing.org/2011/05/2011-essex-river-race-inspirational/