tyson Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Emilie and I went to the Seabrook Harbor surf session to see what would happen if we brought our K2: http://www.westsideboatshop.com/html/Kayak...ing/Bullitt.htm The waves were considerably better than 2 weeks ago. The end result was we hunted down the biggest badest waves we could catch, got trashed only once and pulled the offside combat roll. :-) Pictures are here: http://picasaweb.google.com/tyson.sawyer/2...feat=directlink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJ Carey Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Great pictures! It looks like a blast surfing in the K2 , although the bow paddler does seem to be getting a salt water facial pretty regularly. Good for you guys for having the imagination and sense of fun to give it a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Great pictures! It looks like a blast surfing in the K2 , although the bow paddler does seem to be getting a salt water facial pretty regularly. Good for you guys for having the imagination and sense of fun to give it a go. Great pictures. Surfing in a tandem: awesome. You cannot be stopped! I liked photo 24 of the red kayak preparing for an endo. That rudder in the surf zone scares me: My disturbed mind starts to imagine bad things: deep flesh wounds, decapitations. But that's just me. Keep surfing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyson Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 Great pictures. Surfing in a tandem: awesome. You cannot be stopped! I liked photo 24 of the red kayak preparing for an endo. That rudder in the surf zone scares me: My disturbed mind starts to imagine bad things: deep flesh wounds, decapitations. But that's just me. Keep surfing! The guy in that photo works at the same place Emilie and I do. We printed that one and posted it on his cube. :-) Your concerns about the rudder aren't the same as mine. Mine are more along the lines of a crash landing in surf (the point being landing, not surging) and having a broken rudder while 20 miles from home. I would have preferred one that folded flat on the top of the stern as most rudders do. But since we bought a high performance boat, we're stuck with a "high performance rudder". ...and it seems that we in fact can be stopped. Yesterday we put in at Odiorne/Seavey Creak and paddled 10 miles north on the outer coast and then 10 miles back. The seas where 3 to 6 feet with moderate chop and confusion. Our pace was discouraging with a moving average of just 4.0 mph. Add to that 2 stops that combined to 35 minutes and it took us 5:25 to do 20 miles. The purpose of all of this is to try completing the Blackburn. Note that I did not use the word "compete" ;-) That event requires that you be done in under 6 hrs. Anything over 5hrs looks like an embarrassment, esp. in a Doug Bushnell built tandem. We're not racers. Compared with present company, we really have not done all that much kayaking and don't get out all that often. We've put a lot more effort into learning rolling, surfing and deep water rescue ("safety skills") than putting in a lot of fast miles. We are able to sustain 5mph on flat water. We are able to surf, brace and roll in the boat also. Where we seem to be failing is that our forward stroke goes out the window in rough conditions with this boat. It is a bit of a nervous boat with limited stability and I end up trying to keep steady and balanced with my lower body and paddling with just my arms and shoulders. ...and not even doing that very effectively. I think I need to get better at bracing and balancing with the paddle while doing a proper forward stroke (with full body) so that I can be less tense and twitchy in rough water. If we can't do better than yesterday when the Blackburn comes around, Doug might demand that we return his boat and stop embarrassing him. :-) Cheers! Ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 The guy in that photo works at the same place Emilie and I do. We printed that one and posted it on his cube. :-) Your concerns about the rudder aren't the same as mine. Mine are more along the lines of a crash landing in surf (the point being landing, not surging) and having a broken rudder while 20 miles from home. I would have preferred one that folded flat on the top of the stern as most rudders do. But since we bought a high performance boat, we're stuck with a "high performance rudder". ...and it seems that we in fact can be stopped. Yesterday we put in at Odiorne/Seavey Creak and paddled 10 miles north on the outer coast and then 10 miles back. The seas where 3 to 6 feet with moderate chop and confusion. Our pace was discouraging with a moving average of just 4.0 mph. Add to that 2 stops that combined to 35 minutes and it took us 5:25 to do 20 miles. The purpose of all of this is to try completing the Blackburn. Note that I did not use the word "compete" ;-) That event requires that you be done in under 6 hrs. Anything over 5hrs looks like an embarrassment, esp. in a Doug Bushnell built tandem. We're not racers. Compared with present company, we really have not done all that much kayaking and don't get out all that often. We've put a lot more effort into learning rolling, surfing and deep water rescue ("safety skills") than putting in a lot of fast miles. We are able to sustain 5mph on flat water. We are able to surf, brace and roll in the boat also. Where we seem to be failing is that our forward stroke goes out the window in rough conditions with this boat. It is a bit of a nervous boat with limited stability and I end up trying to keep steady and balanced with my lower body and paddling with just my arms and shoulders. ...and not even doing that very effectively. I think I need to get better at bracing and balancing with the paddle while doing a proper forward stroke (with full body) so that I can be less tense and twitchy in rough water. If we can't do better than yesterday when the Blackburn comes around, Doug might demand that we return his boat and stop embarrassing him. :-) Cheers! Ty Ty, It doesn't look like your going to embarrass anybody. I think that you had a great plan in learning how to be safe in the boat 1st then learning how to get the speed. Many people attempt the Blackburn that built a lot of speed and mile on flat water but can't deal with the conditions. They loose a lot of time scrambling back into their boats or looking for assistance. Keep up the good work I am sure that the speed will follow. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Well said, Jason.... I was taking a break between little sprints in my new Think FIT quasi-ski on the Mystic yesterday when Mark J of CRCK poked me from behind with a very old Hawaiian round-bottomed K1 he had trained on years ago. Needing to paddle forward to reduce tippiness we rounded the Lake again at the top of my new comfort zone: 5-5.5 mph (it had been only 4.5 the last outing). I asked him if he was at "good speed" or just paddling "with me". He just smiled. As I was putting in after 2 hours (with sore back) I watched him sprint away at considerably higher speed with surprisingly little effort. Yet he couldn't easily set his wrist-mounted stopwatch when stationary without precarious tippiness! I had been told that the only way to get into fast cruising stability with these tender hulls is with considerable PRACTICE. Keeping the Epic mid-wing shorter seems to perhaps reduce "tripping" when turning or in a beam gust, too. Will I ever hit 8 knots in this quasi-ski? Will you ever win the Blackburn? Who cares, eh? Have fun. Ern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyson Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 Needing to paddle forward to reduce tippiness we rounded the Lake again at the top of my new comfort zone: 5-5.5 mph (it had been only 4.5 the last outing). I asked him if he was at "good speed" or just paddling "with me". He just smiled. As I was putting in after 2 hours (with sore back) I watched him sprint away at considerably higher speed with surprisingly little effort. Yet he couldn't easily set his wrist-mounted stopwatch when stationary without precarious tippiness! Question: Does the stability come from water speed on the hull or does it come from being able to brace a bit on each stroke? Having been lacking others to learn from (until finding this group) I've used books and trial and error. However, I can't figure out to what extent I'm supposed to stabilize at speed with the paddle and to what extent its supposed to come from the hips. I had been told that the only way to get into fast cruising stability with these tender hulls is with considerable PRACTICE. Working on it! I'm thinking that there may be value in running down to CRCK to rent a "tippy" solo for a day and put some miles on that out in open water. Will I ever hit 8 knots in this quasi-ski? Will you ever win the Blackburn? Who cares, eh? No suspense on the Blackburn. I just want to be able to hold my head high while saying that I completed it. Cheers! Ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Does the stability come from water speed on the hull or does it come from being able to brace a bit on each stroke? I have no idea about a K2, but here are some random thoughts about paddling what I think are tender boats that may apply or not. Its what I think about the subject which may not work for you. It always helps to be moving. Don't think of it in terms of stability; think of it as a dynamic situation. When you walk or scramble across a boulder field, you do not carefully balance yourself at each step or on each rock. You are constantly moving and adjusting. In a tender boat, let it move and dance; just stay loose and keep yourself over the boat. If you try to keep the boat "stable", you will just constantly "chase" the boat trying to keep it "stable" and make things worse while fatiguing you body and mind. Try paddling a solo with your legs flat on the hull , feet just gently touching the foot pegs, off the thigh braces, and back away from backband so you have little direct contact with boat. Focus on staying loose and over the boat while it bounces around. Of course there will be times when a brace or a supportive stroke will help or be needed. Once you mind is free of need to stabilize the boat and you body is in snych with "riding "the boat, the fun begins and you can paddle the boat without distraction. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
florriej Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I have no idea about a K2, but here are some random thoughts about paddling what I think are tender boats that may apply or not. Its what I think about the subject which may not work for you. It always helps to be moving. Don't think of it in terms of stability; think of it as a dynamic situation. When you walk or scramble across a boulder field, you do not carefully balance yourself at each step or on each rock. You are constantly moving and adjusting. In a tender boat, let it move and dance; just stay loose and keep yourself over the boat. If you try to keep the boat "stable", you will just constantly "chase" the boat trying to keep it "stable" and make things worse while fatiguing you body and mind. Try paddling a solo with your legs flat on the hull , feet just gently touching the foot pegs, off the thigh braces, and back away from backband so you have little direct contact with boat. Focus on staying loose and over the boat while it bounces around. Of course there will be times when a brace or a supportive stroke will help or be needed. Once you mind is free of need to stabilize the boat and you body is in snych with "riding "the boat, the fun begins and you can paddle the boat without distraction. Ed Lawson Wow, that is such a helpful description, thank you! Makes me see that I mostly "chase" my boat trying to be in control. Didn't know what else to do, great to understand more about what good paddling is! Florrie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyson Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 In a tender boat, let it move and dance; just stay loose and keep yourself over the boat. If you try to keep the boat "stable", you will just constantly "chase" the boat trying to keep it "stable" and make things worse while fatiguing you body and mind. That sounds like just the sort of Zen I'm trying to learn. :-) Try paddling a solo with your legs flat on the hull , feet just gently touching the foot pegs, off the thigh braces, and back away from backband so you have little direct contact with boat. Focus on staying loose and over the boat while it bounces around. I'll give that a try. Thanks! Once you mind is free of need to stabilize the boat and you body is in snych with "riding "the boat, the fun begins and you can paddle the boat without distraction. Almost sounds like a line from "The Matrix". ;-) Cheers! Ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Does the stability come from water speed on the hull or does it come from being able to brace a bit on each stroke? Fine description from Ed.... I think of each stroke, especially if at quick cadence, as providing a broader geometry...like a catamaran, wherein the stability is provided by these outer pontoons as the hull becomes, as Ed noted, lighter on its "feet". If you're paddling at very low cadence it can feel more like a series of mini-braces, which certainly was inevitable for me at the beginning of the curve. Wing paddles semi-automatically combine to create a widening "V" shape that indeed enhances this stability as long as the V stays wide...otherwise one can "trip" easily over an errant buried blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob C Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Does the stability come from water speed on the hull or does it come from being able to brace a bit on each stroke? Sit upright to keep your hips loose for balance... keep paddling -- the force on the blades in the water while paddling adds stability. Winged paddles -- great for racing, not-so-great for bracing because of their aerodynamics. If you roll with wings, just make sure that you keep the blade at a climbing angle or it will dive. Cheers, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyson Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 Sit upright to keep your hips loose for balance... keep paddling -- the force on the blades in the water while paddling adds stability. We'll be taking a clinic at CRCK this evening that might help and we are renting a couple of skinny solos (not sure exactly what) to take out onto Ipswich Bay (or something like that) tomorrow. Hopefully we can improve our technique because that will help our pace a lot more than strength or endurance at this point. Winged paddles -- great for racing, not-so-great for bracing because of their aerodynamics. If you roll with wings, just make sure that you keep the blade at a climbing angle or it will dive. We're not using winged paddles. Emilie didn't get a feel for them the one time we tried them and since we do mostly mixed fun/touring, a race paddle may not be the best choice for us. However, I'd think that so long as you got the angle of attack correct that a winged paddle would do a powerful (use way too much paddle) lay-back/greenland roll. :-) Thanks for all the pointers guys. It will give me stuff to think about as we try to learn this. Cheers! Ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emilie Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 If you try to keep the boat "stable", you will just constantly "chase" the boat trying to keep it "stable" and make things worse while fatiguing you body and mind. IMHO it also makes the front paddler sea sick. Emilie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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