help with layup materials

[glad]

I am considering getting the new Force 3 HV and am considering different materials.

I've read the IMPEX product literature on carbon kevlar, k-lite, and kevlar but it is pretty limited. I could use some help with the pros and cons.

I don't mind sacrificing a little flex were I to get all kevlar since I was told this only matters if you are racing.

Since the time I really end up hurting myself is hauling the boat, I was looking for low weight. I probably would not do much rock-gardening in that boat. But I will likely be dragging it on the shore.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Karen

[risingsn]

I am considering getting the new Force 3 HV and am considering different materials.

I've read the IMPEX product literature on carbon kevlar, k-lite, and kevlar but it is pretty limited. I could use some help with the pros and cons.

I don't mind sacrificing a little flex were I to get all kevlar since I was told this only matters if you are racing.

Since the time I really end up hurting myself is hauling the boat, I was looking for low weight. I probably would not do much rock-gardening in that boat. But I will likely be dragging it on the shore.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Karen

Hi Karen, Force 3, nice boat. I have a carbon/kev Avocet. I have found it to be basiclly bullet proof. My only recommendation would be to get a full keel strip. Enjoy the new boat,Chuck.

[PeterB]

If you don't do the kind of kayaking that punishes hulls (rock gardening, hard launchings and landings etc) , kevlar would probably be okay. But I would highly recommend a keel strip! I've been enormously impressed with how much general hull abuse can get sucked up by the keel strip. , especially in landings, dragging a boat up through the sand etc. However much extra it costs , it's worth it, IMO.

[EEL]

I've read the IMPEX product literature on carbon kevlar, k-lite, and kevlar but it is pretty limited. I could use some help with the pros and cons.

I am a fan of the Force series and Impex is known for being responsive to problems, but I have seen some negative comments about the k-lite layup. Do not know if they were valid/odd events or not; but checking with someone with experience with that layup would seem prudent.

Ed Lawson

[glad]

I like the keel protector idea since I needed to put a strip on my Romany after a few years of abuse.

Who does that? I thought I saw it on Kevin's B's boat.

I will likely be landing in some surf on gravel/rocky berms.

[Deb Millar]

I like the keel protector idea since I needed to put a strip on my Romany after a few years of abuse.

Who does that? I thought I saw it on Kevin's B's boat.

I will likely be landing in some surf on gravel/rocky berms.

I have keel strips on both my RomanyLV and ExplorerLV.

The Explorer came with a fiberglass strip, the Romany has one of the new "truck bed" keel strips.

I've been very pleased with the one on the Romany as it's stood two years of rock and surf abuse, although I don't often drag my boat up a rocky beach.

Carl Ladd at Osprey Sea Kayak (www.ospresyseakayak.com) put the one on my RomanyLV.

Deb M

[EEL]

Who does that? I thought I saw it on Kevin's B's boat.

You can order one as an option, or, as Deb mentioned, you can have it done afterwards.

I should have mentioned this before, but depending upon your size, the standard bulkhead location on a F3 is well forward compared to where you are likely to have footpegs set. While you can place sticky bags of gear ahead of the footpegs to use the space, a more elegant solution is to order the boat with the bulkhead moved back to put that space in the forward hatch area. That also creates the option or ordering without footpegs and using foam instead.

Even if you don't go looking for them, rocks and rough landings are a stable of paddling around here so keel strips make sense.

Ed Lawson

[jdeforest]

Not to butt in, but has anyone that's paddling a "Truck Bed" liner keel strip seen a drop in speed due to drag? I have gone back and forth on the idea. I've read a couple of articles on the rubber strip, all positive.

Justin D

[glad]

You can order one as an option, or, as Deb mentioned, you can have it done afterwards.

I should have mentioned this before, but depending upon your size, the standard bulkhead location on a F3 is well forward compared to where you are likely to have footpegs set. While you can place sticky bags of gear ahead of the footpegs to use the space, a more elegant solution is to order the boat with the bulkhead moved back to put that space in the forward hatch area. That also creates the option or ordering without footpegs and using foam instead.

Even if you don't go looking for them, rocks and rough landings are a stable of paddling around here so keel strips make sense.

Ed Lawson

Great idea about moving the bulk head. I'd like to leave a little space for the occasional longer legged friend especially with the HV but more cargo space for camping would be a big bonus.

I had a bad experience stowing a crazy creek chair in front of my foot pegs. It trapped my ankles after sloshing up around the inside of the coaming in a surf landing. Not a pretty sight being dragged around by both ankles as the boat got pounded by th incoming waves.

What are peoples' experience with Kevlar?

Karen

[spuglisi]

Great idea about moving the bulk head. I'd like to leave a little space for the occasional longer legged friend especially with the HV but more cargo space for camping would be a big bonus.

I had a bad experience stowing a crazy creek chair in front of my foot pegs. It trapped my ankles after sloshing up around the inside of the coaming in a surf landing. Not a pretty sight being dragged around by both ankles as the boat got pounded by th incoming waves.

What are peoples' experience with Kevlar?

Karen

Karen,

I have a wilderness tempest in kevlar. I can't speak to other brands but the tempests (in kevlar) have had a lot of problems with leakage around the hatch rims and cockpit coamings where they attach to the deck. I just had mine resealed (under warranty) and the dealer that facilitated the repairs (but didn't actually do them) said that he doesn't sell kevlar boats because he feels that there will always be problems due to the flexibility. He conceded that they have greater abrasion resistance but thought that to be their only advantage aside from a modest weight reduction. That is, of course, only one man's opinion.

I've had my boat for about 3 years. I haven't done a lot of rock play in it but it's been banged and scraped against rocks...and dragged up the beach with only superficial gel coat scratches. Aside from the leakage problems (other brands may not have the same track record) I've been happy with the boat.

[Deb Millar]

Not to butt in, but has anyone that's paddling a "Truck Bed" liner keel strip seen a drop in speed due to drag? I have gone back and forth on the idea. I've read a couple of articles on the rubber strip, all positive.

Justin D

I haven't noticed any change in speed on my RomanyLV, although the Romany has a reputation for being "slow" any way. My husband also had the spray-on/truck bed keel strip on his TempestPRO165 and he hadn't noticed anything different in the speediness of the boat afterwards. He presently paddles an Avocet and will probably have the spray on strip put on this spring.

As I said, this particular keel strip has worked well for me in rocks.

Deb M

[jason]

Great idea about moving the bulk head. I'd like to leave a little space for the occasional longer legged friend especially with the HV but more cargo space for camping would be a big bonus.

I had a bad experience stowing a crazy creek chair in front of my foot pegs. It trapped my ankles after sloshing up around the inside of the coaming in a surf landing. Not a pretty sight being dragged around by both ankles as the boat got pounded by th incoming waves.

What are peoples' experience with Kevlar?

Karen

My Shadow is Kevlar boat (not an Impex box, thus your results may very), given what I know now I will not purchase another Kevlar boat.

I taped a rock this weekend and the section where I repaired with fiberglass had no issue but just ahead of it was a 4" rip in the kevlar. I don't know if my boat isn't aging well but the original (kevlar) sections of the boat don't seem to hold up.

The difference between a Kevlar and a fiberglass boat is only ~3-7LBS (You can have a larger range in the same boat depending on the manufacture). Not having the foot pegs should save you about a pound. As for the other 2-6LBS you may think if it's really worth the extra costs and the babying that you may need do to the boat?

-Jason

[Bill Gwynn]

I have a Kevlar Avocet. My experience is that the Kevlar itself holds up very well to abuse. But, the flex of the layup leads to lots and lots gelcoat repairs and spider cracks everywhere. So, for big impacts, the kevlar layup will stay intact, but the area affected will be much larger with more gelcoat damage, whereas a standard layup may actually hole, but the damage will be in a smaller area.

[Suz]

I am considering getting the new Force 3 HV and am considering different materials.

I've read the IMPEX product literature on carbon kevlar, k-lite, and kevlar but it is pretty limited. I could use some help with the pros and cons.

I don't mind sacrificing a little flex were I to get all kevlar since I was told this only matters if you are racing.

Since the time I really end up hurting myself is hauling the boat, I was looking for low weight. I probably would not do much rock-gardening in that boat. But I will likely be dragging it on the shore.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Karen

Karen,

I don't think you are ready for a kevlar boat yet. I think you would be when you are ready to stop camping and launch/landing in surf and although you say you won't do "much" rock-gardening in the boat, it doesn't take much to damage it - ask two of my companions this weekend who have holes in their boats. We weren't really playing in the rocks, just paddling through and around:) I really wasn't planning on it with my brand spanking new 161 and just mistimed due to my being reluctance to get scratch my new boat.

Get a boat you don't have to baby, get a factory keel strip as they look better than the spray on ones (although I haven't seen one by Impex). Learn to drag your boat by the cockpit rather than the front toggle - this distributes the weight more evenly and means that you won't go through your stern keel strip as quickly. When camping, empty your boat before dragging it up on the rocks into mesh bags - one per hatch - three trips and you are done and then drag/carry it up. If you are not alone, ask for help to carry.

Buy a good quality easy to use kayak cart for most of the hauling around, get one of the load bars on your car to assist there. Plan where you leave your boat around the house so that you aren't always moving it and keep it at a good height to lift it up and put it down.

Personally I don't feel the cons of the Kevlar lay up are worth the minimal weight savings.

What are the weights of the boats in the two lay ups you are considering?

I really only recommend the lighter lay ups for people who have back problems and really stay out of the impact zone.

Suz

[Deb Millar]

Karen,

I don't think you are ready for a kevlar boat yet. I think you would be when you are ready to stop camping and launch/landing in surf and although you say you won't do "much" rock-gardening in the boat, it doesn't take much to damage it - ask two of my companions this weekend who have holes in their boats. We weren't really playing in the rocks, just paddling through and around:) I really wasn't planning on it with my brand spanking new 161 and just mistimed due to my being reluctance to get scratch my new boat.

Get a boat you don't have to baby, get a factory keel strip as they look better than the spray on ones (although I haven't seen one by Impex). Learn to drag your boat by the cockpit rather than the front toggle - this distributes the weight more evenly and means that you won't go through your stern keel strip as quickly. When camping, empty your boat before dragging it up on the rocks into mesh bags - one per hatch - three trips and you are done and then drag/carry it up. If you are not alone, ask for help to carry.

Buy a good quality easy to use kayak cart for most of the hauling around, get one of the load bars on your car to assist there. Plan where you leave your boat around the house so that you aren't always moving it and keep it at a good height to lift it up and put it down.

Personally I don't feel the cons of the Kevlar lay up are worth the minimal weight savings.

What are the weights of the boats in the two lay ups you are considering?

I really only recommend the lighter lay ups for people who have back problems and really stay out of the impact zone.

Suz

My first kayak, a CD Slipstream, was kevlar and I won't go that route again. The savings in lbs, which really only amounts to 5 -6 lbs, isn't worth the $500+ extra price tag. I also was fairly light for this boat to begin with, and, unless I loaded it down with gear, I found myself getting blown around a bit in wind or current. At that point in my paddling career I wasn't terribly proficient to begin with, but I don't think the lighter layup helped much.

As for handling the boat itself: I used to be able to get my RomanyLV (a relatively "light" FG NDK) on and off the car when we had Thule stackers or the saddles, but now that we have the Malones, I really can't do it easily. In fact, the first time I tried, I dropped the boat onto a rock in our driveway and put a nice hole at the top of the bow. While the NDK layups tend to be pretty tough, the length of the drop from the top of my car to the ground didn't help much. I shudder to think what would have happened had the boat had a thinner layup.

I have a weenie tendency to paddle with friends or with my husband, so there is usually someone around to help me lift the boats over a rocky shoreline and I don't end up dragging my boat. Not only does dragging your boat around contribute to some potentially nastiness on the hull, it can also force grit, small pebbles and other "stuff" into the skeg opening. Since having a skeg that won't drop (or pull up) isn't a whole lotta fun sometimes, I try and not get junk stuck up in it. With the exception of the Romany which has a rope skeg, I've always had wire skegs and I've never had jamming problems but then I'm pretty careful when landing/launching. When a sandy, rocky landing or launch can't be avoided, I always check the skeg as soon as I can.

The only thing I have in my cockpit -- and this is dictated by my foam seat and backrest -- are my feet, my legs, and my hips. Admittedly I have a slight fear of entanglement should I need to wet exit, but I really don't like to have stuff rolling around in there, unless it's unavoidable, which it usually is.

'"get a factory keel strip as they look better than the spray on ones "'

As I wrote earlier, I have both a FG factory-installed one and a spray on. Aesthetically, it doesn't matter to me how it looks. I don't have an issue with the latter as it works and, color or texture aside (mine is black which works with my boat ), to me that's what's most important.

Ultimately, the choice to get a kevlar boat for the reasons you've mentioned is yours, but I think you've gotten some good advice here.

Deb M

[Phil Allen]

I've got a older Impex kevlar Currituck, and my wife has a newer Impex Montauk in Carbon/Kevlar. If you were spending extra money for a lighter boat, I would definitely go for the carbon kevlar, not just kevlar. I get lots of spider cracks in the gel coat as the kevlar flexes pretty well. That deformability has probably minimized some holes in the boat however. If my memory serves, Impex doesn't recommend keel strips, and for me, the only place where it might be helpful has been on the sharp edges of the skeg box (where I'm always patching chips). If you go the carbon/kevlar route it will save ~8lbs on the boat.

Also, Impex has a web board like this one where you can ask question like this.

Phil

[Paul Sylvester]

I get lots of spider cracks in the gel coat as the kevlar flexes pretty well. "I'm always patching chips"

With the money you are spending on kevlar does it make sense to look at wood strip designs? Light, strong and I never had to install a keel strip on a epoxy layup and the designs have come a long way.

Just a thought........

[Pintail]

Karen, I always thought Impex boats were already very light, compared with those British dreadnoughts...

So: regular lay-up plus factory keel strip (never mind what they recommend: <you> are the customer). If you really feel like investigating kevlar: Joel Thomas still has one or two in stock, I think (NESC, Rowley).

By the way: someone is advertising a lightweight Nordkapp LV on the "for sale" board: why don't you investigate <that>?

[subaruguru]

I'm rather amazed at how strong the C/K layup is on my Force5. Judy and I dropped it from a roof rack onto cement in 20F cold and I was surprised that there was no damage whatsover to the hull! This is in sharp contrast to the fragility I experience with a clear C/K hull on a P&H Cetus. I'd been told that P&H's engineering and QA were matchless, but the rumor of they're using an eastern euro factory for clear layups being somewhat compromised may be true...whereas Impex seems to have matured to a level equalling the best.

So in my judgement the Impex requires no keel strip whatsoever, whereas the P&H could definitely use one (as Peter's has). To that end I fashioned a short stern-end strip of epoxy-soaked 2" wide industrial black velcro for repair and reinforcement, but as Suz quipped "It looks pretty shitty!" Oh well....

It's my undersatnding that Impex still uses a GLASS deck because it's easier to contort, and C/K only in their hulls, but this Force5 hybrid weighs in at only 52 lbs (same as the clear carbon Cetus!), and of course the Force 3 will be commensuredly lighter.

Hope this helps.

Ern

[glad]

I am considering getting the new Force 3 HV and am considering different materials.

I've read the IMPEX product literature on carbon kevlar, k-lite, and kevlar but it is pretty limited. I could use some help with the pros and cons.

I don't mind sacrificing a little flex were I to get all kevlar since I was told this only matters if you are racing.

Since the time I really end up hurting myself is hauling the boat, I was looking for low weight. I probably would not do much rock-gardening in that boat. But I will likely be dragging it on the shore.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Karen

Also, what do you think of the k-lite layup?

It could be my imagination but I always felt my fiberglass force 3 was noticeably lighter than my carbon/kevlar. As Dee mentioned, maybe it wasn't to spec.

[PeterB]

Karen,

If you’re already willing to spend the extra $$ for kevlar, or carbon/ Kevlar , another way of looking at it:

For close to that same amount, you could get a fiberglass boat, with a keel strip, custom front bulkhead, foam insert & no footpegs* (way more storage room in front compartment , less to pump out in cockpit if flooded) and still have $$ left over to think about something like a Hullavator, or other stuff that will help you move the boat around on land more easily.

(While we're at it): My guess is with a foam seat, no footpegs, and maybe even custom carbon/kevlar bulkheads (?) you'd cut down on some weight.

(and while we're still at it) Mr. Sylvester might be onto something. You might even consider the incredible wood strip or stitch & glue Guillemot Night Heron.

http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/kayak/8/view

[EEL]

(and while we're still at it) Mr. Sylvester might be onto something. You might even consider the incredible wood strip or stitch & glue Guillemot Night Heron.

And there is even one for sale nearby for $1,800.00 by Nancy Hill of Pond Scum fame.

http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandC...ig.pl?read=3580

http://picasaweb.google.com/nanchill/Heron...feat=directlink

Not sure cockpit size would be right, but worth checking out. Definitely light and tough.

Ed Lawson

[bob budd]

...but if you really want to know about k-lite a quick google said it was a C-K weave and (if correct) would be more like C-K than Kevlar flex/spider-wise, also mentioned were prominence/visibility of scratches on the snazzy clearcoat hull when dragged on the sand, etc. There is a k-lite Currituck on the board (under classifieds - Jan/"blindside"), maybe there valuable anecdotes to be had.

[Brian Nystrom]

Reading Impex's description of the K-Lite layup, it sounds like it's their most durable option, in addition to being the lightest. Note that they refer to it as an "expedition layup".

I like the idea of epoxy-based boats - especially if they're post-cured - as the difference in strength and resilience compared to polyester and vinylester boats is substantial. Using UV resistant vinylester with glass instead of gelcoat as an outer sacrificial layers makes a lot of sense, as it add strength, stiffness and abrasion resistance that you don't get with gelcoat. This is something that Nick Schade (of Guillemot Kayaks fame) has promoted for years. The only downside I can see to it is that scratches will show more, especially when they expose the glass layer.

One question I have is how durable it would be long-term if it's constantly exposed to sunlight. UV inhibitors don't last forever and epoxy is UV sensitive, so I would make it a point to store it under cover. I wouldn't think normal use would pose any problems, but it would be a good idea to ask Impex about this. Perhaps it would be prudent to have the hull re-coated with automotive clearcoat or exterior varnish every few years, just to make sure that it's adequately protected from UV.

[PeterB]

I like the idea of epoxy-based boats - especially if they're post-cured - as the difference in strength and resilience compared to polyester and vinylester boats is substantial.

As an aside:

My understanding is that the carbon fiber paddles (e.g. Werner high end blades like the Cyprus, Kalliste etc.) are made with epoxy, not polyester & vinyl ester. As a paddle blade has relatively little material, it is still cost-effective to make them this way, where the amount of epoxy ( way more expensive than polyester ) for an entire boat would translate into a pretty significant upcharge. Otherwise, I think most composite kayaks would use epoxy. But, contrary to stories of carbon being brittle, my Werner carbon fiber blade (Ikelos) is incredibly durable, perhaps due to the epoxy. It would be dandy to enjoy those same qualities extended to an entire kayak hull. If that's what Mr. Schade does, one more reason to consider those incredible Guillemot boats.

(But, hey, Impex is great too)