Re-entry and Roll

[Dee Hall]

Not to be too provocative here, but has anybody had any real-life experience where this was the best choice of recovery from a wet exit? As I see it, a re-entry and roll puts you in a more vunerable position than before you capsized because now the boat is much less stable and you still have to pump it out. So whatever capsized you in the first place is even more likely to capsize you again. The one exception I might see is if you have a foot pump.

[Bill Gwynn]

I suppose in the conditions you describe this may be true, although when I tip over it's usually because I did something stupid and not just the conditions. Some other exceptions I can think of are: If it was a big boat wake that tipped you, the hazardous conditions no longer exist. Yesterday my brother and I were out at Dread Ledge Cut in Swampscott riding some awesome waves, and after a couple of wet exits the waves just pushed us through the cut to where there were no more waves, so re-enter and roll worked here. Another alternative is to re-enter and roll with the paddle float on to provide the stability you need to hand pump. I guess another factor is the boat itself, some boats hold more water after a re-enter roll than others. My Capella held lots of water after a re-enter roll, but handled pretty well. My Avocet retains less water, but is more difficult to manage. For me, I would rather re-enter and roll (paddle float optional) than the standard paddle float re-entry (which I find difficult).

[Dee Hall]

Under all but one of the conditions, a pump-and-dump (to empty boat first) and cowboy re-entry would be better (faster.) As far as using the paddle float during iffy conditions, I would rather pump-and-dump and use the paddle float to re-enter on the back deck (also faster.)

If conditions are too bad for using a paddle float, they are too bad to be out alone in without a bomb-proof (if such a thing exists) roll.

[Suz]

IMO, a cowboy re-entry is impractical in conditions. In most cases it is considered a fun thing to do. Besides,it isn't in my repetoire, but re-enter and roll is. Throw a paddle float on and you can then re-enter, roll and then pump. It is hassle to remove the paddle float but not impossible.

Note that it is possible to re-enter and then put your skirt on and then roll. A bit more fiddly but less water in the boat. It is probably worthwhile practicing.

Suzanne

[Bill Gwynn]

I should definetly spend some time on the Cowboy re-entry. I can do it OK on flat water, but have never tried it in "conditions".

Ps...anyone going to Chebacco skills tonight? I guess theres a chance of T-Storms.

[sings_evil_twin]

easily enough... Go out in conditions, with partners, and attempt whatever solo rescue/recovery you want to try in those conditions. Your partners can bail you out if the experiment proves less than successful. If you can't do it, then you can't rely on them on a solo paddle in conditions. Don't go out in those conditions alone.

sing

[Dee Hall]

>IMO, a cowboy re-entry is impractical in conditions.

Yeah, this is what I was told too. However, the only conditions under which I haven't been able to do it first try was at the end of the first day of trip leader training when I was almost too tired to get my weight up onto the boat. I doubt that I would have had the strength to roll my water laden boat or pump it out either. I have even cowboyed a couple of times during surf breaks. Having surfed with a full boat, I consider a re-entry and roll under such conditions very impractical.

However, I am still looking for real-life experiences. I guess this would mean someone who was alone so an assisted rescue wasn't an option and a re-entry and roll got them back into the saddle. I have not had a capsize when alone.

[Gcosloy]

Could you explain to this newbie what a re-entry and roll is. I think I know what each is but not both together. For example if conditions are rough and you capsize, that usually doesn't mean exiting the boat. If you do a wet exit and then re-enter I would think you are still in the capsized position. Unless I've missed something, please explain??

Also a cowboy re-entry can safely and easily be accomplished with sea-wings or attachable sponsons. I know this item is extremely controversal, but it is a legitimate option.

Gene

[bob budd]

Re-entry and roll means you are out of the boat, either by choice or otherwise (playing with Mr. Burnett?). Generally you slip into the boat as far as possible with head above water. Then you dunk your head and gripping the combing finish the re-entry. From here, you roll up as if you never exited the boat. It is often easier to do the maneuver with a bit of water in the boat, the lower in the water the boat is easier it is to get back in. As mentioned elsewhere more water has a downside. I find that as I slide in it is not difficult to re-enter as far as possible without adding water, though water does sneak in during the maneuver. Reattaching the skirt is something I hadn't thought about/wasn't brought up when I learned. You scoop water into the open cockpit when you roll up otherwise. I second the notion of practicing with spotters.

[jeffcasey]

I disagree, Dee. As somebody who has failed to get a bombproof roll after 5 years of trying, I don't let it stop me from paddling, even solo in conditions. I have consequently made sure that I have several solo recoveries, and practiced them in conditions.

Cowboy is (my opinion) a party trick for most boats & paddlers. It is fun to try, often works in flat water, but is silly to depend on.

The traditional pontoon paddle-float rescue can almost always be made to work, but is very risky to rely on in conditions...a lot can go wrong, and usually does in big swells, especially with any break. I don't let that stop me from practicing it or teaching it, but it should not be the first line of defense in conditions.

The re-enter and roll with a paddle float **always works**. Even bozos like me who can't get a reliable roll (yet?) can roll with a float on. True, if the conditions are bad, you are not as stable with a flooded boat, but paddling flooded and pumping between braces should also be practiced.

None of this is gospel, and I've heard arguments against pieces of it from many paddlers who are much wiser and more experienced...but it is what I have ended up with. Comments?

[Paul Sylvester]

I have had to use the R&R in conditions to get out of a tough spot real quick. Sometimes your buds can't get in to tow you as quick as you would like so you R&R, then go to a safe zone asap. Then you can swim and do a normal rescue in a safe area. This should be practiced in conditions.

[Dee Hall]

This makes sense. As long as one has a possibility of getting the boat out of the conditions quickly, then it definitely worth trying.

[Dee Hall]

>I disagree, Dee. As somebody who has failed to get a

>bombproof roll after 5 years of trying, I don't let it stop

>me from paddling, even solo in conditions. I have

>consequently made sure that I have several solo recoveries,

>and practiced them in conditions.

>

I didn't mean that one shouldn't got out in conditions alone if one doesn't have a bombproof roll. I meant that one shouldn't go out in conditions if one doesn't have a reliable self-rescue.

>Cowboy is (my opinion) a party trick for most boats &

>paddlers. It is fun to try, often works in flat water, but

>is silly to depend on.

>

I certainly wouldn't want to depend on it, but I wouldn't want to depend on a re-entry and roll either.

>The traditional pontoon paddle-float rescue can almost

>always be made to work, but is very risky to rely on in

>conditions...a lot can go wrong, and usually does in big

>swells, especially with any break. I don't let that stop me

>from practicing it or teaching it, but it should not be the

>first line of defense in conditions.

>

I heartily agree that the paddle-float rescue can almost always be made to work and should be practiced by everyone. One should also try it using only one hand in case of a shoulder or arm injury. Also, one should know that the rigging on their back deck will work well with a paddlefloat outrigger.

>The re-enter and roll with a paddle float **always works**.

>Even bozos like me who can't get a reliable roll (yet?) can

>roll with a float on. True, if the conditions are bad, you

>are not as stable with a flooded boat, but paddling flooded

>and pumping between braces should also be practiced.

>

I really wouldn't want to put myself into this position. Each time one capsizes and has to start pumping out the boat again, one gets colder and more tired. Of course, our Impex boats have a lot of cockpit volume to pump out. I may feel differently after I move that front bulkhead.

[jeffcasey]

agreed.

as to the cockpit volume, i keep mine packed with foam behind the seat and against the front bulkhead. this eliminates footpegs and drops the pumped volume way down. someday (!) i'll get around to moving the bulkheads to where god intended them.

[Brian Nystrom]

The R&R works when a paddle float rescue or a cowboy won't, due to conditions. Yeah, it leaves a lot of water in the boat, but it gets you back into position to paddle in a hurry. If you're in conditions so severe that will capsize you frequently, no self rescue - or assisted rescue for that matter - is going to help you. In my experience, capsizes are usually caused by unexpected wave actions, paddler error or both and are rarely serial in nature. Typically, you can get to safer water, if need be.

Regardless, this discussion points out the very real dangers of paddling alone in challenging conditions. It doesn't take but one minor mishap to turn a fun day into a nightmare when you have no backup. While one should be prepared to self rescue, it's better to eliminate the possibility of needing to, through exercising good judgement, skills development (bracing, rolling) and paddling in a group.

[cathyfoley]

I have practiced this in flat water and rough water and firmly believe this is one of the best self rescues there is. You can be back in the boat very quickly. I have never once not been able to rescue myself with a paddle float/re-enter and roll. It takes a small amount of confidence to go back under water and slide into the boat, but it takes much less energy than a normal paddle float self-rescue. And if you are a "well rounded" individual such as I, climbing up over the back of a deck isn't the the easiest of task in rough water. Re-enter and rollwith a paddle float is my self-rescue of choice.

[Guest guest]

WRT staying upright emptying your boat in rough water: Once up, leave the float on the blade and use it as a strut/outrigger to brace you up (loom across the back of your shoulders, right arm outstretched along the loom with hand gripping at the normal grip position at the float end), while you pump with the other hand. One hand pumping? Yes. Push the float down to the intake end and trap it beneath your thighs for counter traction while you pump away. Situate the sprayskirt so as to deflect re-entering of sea water. Of course, waves breaking into your open cockpit will pour some cold water on this effort. In a tough spot it's worth a shot.

Carl