rick stoehrer Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 little wind chop on saturday and it was fun enough to grab and surf (they weren't moving very fast as compared to fully formed swell we see) but still...you have to catch them! we all have the low and slow and middle gears...those forward strokes we do mile after mile as we go along our merry way BUT to catch surf we need fast, fast power. doesn't have to be pretty or need to be most ergo efficient; nothing you'd ever do for any distance cause you're only going to need it for 20-25 feet at a time (maybe) but for those few feet you need to spin that paddle fast, fast, fast and MOVE the boat. SPRINT speed. next time you're out...try it. just lay on the speed for a few boat lengths...don't worry about torso rotation, don't worry about form (other than form enough to NOT injure yourself - strong joint alignment) just do some sprints....do a couple sets....get a feel for it. then next time you feel that stern come up a bit, try it...lay it on and catch a wave....maybe you move so fast you end up ahead of the pocket...slow down a bit, lean back and let it catch up...let IT move the boat...maybe you feel the stern come up, lay on the speed and you feel and see the wave roll toward the bow so now you can see the hole you're trying to drop int...right...in....front....lean forward, lay on a few of those fast ugly strokes and see if you drop in...if you do, great! if not, let it go, there's one right behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 Get thee behind me, Satan. Last year, I made the mistake of watching the Dale Williams surf sequence of Vol I of "This is the Sea" and watched people like Shawna Franklin sprinting to catch waves. Bad idea - it totally infected my forward paddling form all summer. Lots of bending elbows, arm paddling. I got chewed out by Steve Maynard during an aborted (no wind) 4* in Bar Harbor in Sept for my forward stroke. And to think that at the beginning of the season last year, I had a decent forward stroke going. It took me a remedial fall session up and down the Charles a gazillion times (next to some serious racers) to cure me. I'm not going back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 Get thee behind me, Satan. Last year, I made the mistake of watching the Dale Williams surf sequence of Vol I of "This is the Sea" and watched people like Shawna Franklin sprinting to catch waves. Bad idea - it totally infected my forward paddling form all summer. Lots of bending elbows, arm paddling. I got chewed out by Steve Maynard during an aborted (no wind) 4* in Bar Harbor in Sept for my forward stroke. And to think that at the beginning of the season last year, I had a decent forward stroke going. It took me a remedial fall session up and down the Charles a gazillion times (next to some serious racers) to cure me. I'm not going back! John, nothing wrong with a bent elbow (especially with a wing paddle): "Pushing with a bent elbow is the part of the stroke that helps you take advantage of your rotation during the power phase. You want to push with your top hand as though you are throwing a crossing blow, elbow bent ninety degrees, with the stroke ending up with you looking just over the top of your forearm. When you incorrectly push straight ahead instead of pushing across, then the path of movement for the blade is an arcing movement that pushes up and down on the surface of the water, rather than down the long of axis of the boat. If you push straight ahead with your top hand, all you are doing is lifting water with the blade and pulling the boat down deeper--a huge impediment to efficiency." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 When you incorrectly push straight ahead instead of pushing across, then the path of movement for the blade is an arcing movement that pushes up and down on the surface of the water, Unfortunately, this was exactly the bad habit I picked up from that DVD - when I watch it now, I wonder, "What was I thinking?" I guess copying the stars isn't always the best thing to do. Fortunately, there were some K1 guys on the Charles who straightened me out - including the "boxing punch" aspect of it. I typically have my elbows bent at about 120 degrees now, and try to sweep wide along the edge of the wake. No doubt I can use more forward stroke coaching, but it was a big improvment for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 Get thee behind me, Satan. Last year, I made the mistake of watching the Dale Williams surf sequence of Vol I of "This is the Sea" and watched people like Shawna Franklin sprinting to catch waves. Bad idea - it totally infected my forward paddling form all summer. Lots of bending elbows, arm paddling. I got chewed out by Steve Maynard during an aborted (no wind) 4* in Bar Harbor in Sept for my forward stroke. And to think that at the beginning of the season last year, I had a decent forward stroke going. It took me a remedial fall session up and down the Charles a gazillion times (next to some serious racers) to cure me. I'm not going back! do i understand this...you watched a dvd and then applied the tools (strokes) he was using to catch surf to your every day paddling? and the charles river folks on their lovely flat brown water were curing what aspect of your ocean going "lets hop on that wave" stroke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 do i understand this...you watched a dvd and then applied the tools (strokes) he was using to catch surf to your every day paddling? Something like that. Pretty stupid, huh? Actually, Maynard straightened out the stroke, and there were a bunch of K1 guys on the Charles who helped reinforce this for me. So - yeah, brown water, but really really fast brown water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 Something like that. Pretty stupid, huh? Actually, Maynard straightened out the stroke, and there were a bunch of K1 guys on the Charles who helped reinforce this for me. So - yeah, brown water, but really really fast brown water. not stupid just not a big enough view maybe...like that elephant joke... i would posit that the forward stroke you use 99% of the time and the forward stroke you use to try to accelerate onto a wave/swell are different. sounds like that's what those gents explained to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 So, what form would you use to sprint to catch a wave? Keep the torso rotation, but throw in more arm action? "don't think, it can only hurt the team" (from Bull Durham) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 So, what form would you use to sprint to catch a wave? Keep the torso rotation, but throw in more arm action? "don't think, it can only hurt the team" (from Bull Durham) that's exactly right, nuke...don't think. take everything you focus on while doing a good forward stroke over the course of the day....and put it in a little box to be opened when you come off the wave! the how isn't nearly so important as the do...you have to be able to get a lot of rpms outta the blade...you have to be able to put some power into those strokes, you have to only be able to do that a dozen feet or so at a time....so whatever is fastest, most powerful and THERE...arm paddle? you bet! worry about pretty and sustainable later...time and place. this is a different tool than the all day lovely forward stroke...different applications. (ps 20 year anniversay of that movie this week...can't hardly believe it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Schade Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 next time you're out...try it. just lay on the speed for a few boat lengths...don't worry about torso rotation, don't worry about form (other than form enough to NOT injure yourself - strong joint alignment) just do some sprints....do a couple sets....get a feel for it. I beg to differ. When you want to lay on the speed quickly you want to make every stroke count. Swinging your arms fast and slapping at the water isn't going to do it as well as winding up your torso, planting the blade deep and concentrating all the power in your abs and legs into the water. One good powerful stroke, executed flawlessly, is worth 3 sloppy quick splashes at the water. By concentrating on perfect form you will accelerate faster, come up to speed quicker, and catch more rides with less effort. The better your form is, the easier it will be and the more rides you will catch. Take a look at these guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kchej3XjvYA Notice they are using full torso rotation, and driving with their legs. Their cadence is faster than most of us can sustain, but their form is good. Next time you are out, try laying down 5 perfect strokes with 100% power and see how you do. BTW, it will probably hurt more than a sloppy stroke, that is because you are doing a lot more work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPSheehan Posted June 20, 2008 Share Posted June 20, 2008 Here's another good video showing a Sprint kayaker in training. Notice the torso rotation as well as the arm extension and leg work. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I see some differences between Rahue's stroke and the second one - but I need to digest this a bit longer - there's a question about upper arm positioning that I've been perplexed about - they seem to have slightly different techniques. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 OK, so I don't contract or extend my arms as much as Rahue or the guy in the second video so much. Part of that is just to force myelf into more torso rotation, and not rely on my arms at all. Having said that, Rahue seems to bring his upper arm more across his chest at about shoulder height, and the guy in the second video seems to not cross it so much, and extends it forward more. Any wisdom on which is better? I'd probably go more with Rahue's form, because it looks like it has more power (and, yeah, I'm influenced by the fact that he won the K1 gold). Right now, I've gotten my forward stroke so ingrained in muscle memory that I think I'd just go with the stroke as it is when catching waves. I did this yesterday and found my stroke is pretty much the same as when I'm on flat water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 Having said that, Rahue seems to bring his upper arm more across his chest at about shoulder height, and the guy in the second video seems to not cross it so much, and extends it forward more. Any wisdom on which is better? No. Nor did I sleep at a Holiday Express last night. OTOH, there have been some extended discussions about how paddles work and how to make them work on the Qajaq USA site. While more focused on GPs and GP stroke technique, lots of stuff about wings and EPs too. These at times are so technical as to be esoteric, but I suspect you would enjoy and find them informative. Links below. The points I found interesting were that a paddle is actually a lever by which you move the boat and it should have minimal movement during the stroke except to extent it pivots on fulcrum point. The wet hand is the fulcrum point and the dry hand needs to move in a manner than maximizes the force that can be applied to the lever with minimal slippage. Also the amount of force applied depends upon inserting and maintaining the blade in the water with minimal disturbance so it can provide as solid an anchor for the lever as possible. Personally, I find it very hard to know what is working well without a GPS and heart rate monitor. When I get the paddle into the water silently and it maintains a solid "stuck in the mud" feel, I find the effort required for normal multi-hour cruising is reduced to the point I feel it is almost effortless, but I am going .3Kts faster or more than with a noisy paddle and trying to "move" it to go fast. Since we all have unique bio-mechanical issues, I think it best to emulate, but not imitate when it comes to paddling techniques so that you discover your own style that works best for you. Best of all, you derive this from just playing about in boats. To say there is bit of reading here is an understatement, but the discussion level is very high and often by folks who paddle a great deal. http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=3;read=68156 http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=2;read=68326 http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=2;read=68221 http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=2;read=68158 http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=3;read=68041 http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=3;read=67964 Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 No. Nor did I sleep at a Holiday Express last night. OTOH, there have been some extended discussions about how paddles work and how to make them work on the Qajaq USA site. While more focused on GPs and GP stroke technique, lots of stuff about wings and EPs too. These at times are so technical as to be esoteric, but I suspect you would enjoy and find them informative. Links below. The points I found interesting were that a paddle is actually a lever by which you move the boat and it should have minimal movement during the stroke except to extent it pivots on fulcrum point. The wet hand is the fulcrum point and the dry hand needs to move in a manner than maximizes the force that can be applied to the lever with minimal slippage. Also the amount of force applied depends upon inserting and maintaining the blade in the water with minimal disturbance so it can provide as solid an anchor for the lever as possible. Personally, I find it very hard to know what is working well without a GPS and heart rate monitor. When I get the paddle into the water silently and it maintains a solid "stuck in the mud" feel, I find the effort required for normal multi-hour cruising is reduced to the point I feel it is almost effortless, but I am going .3Kts faster or more than with a noisy paddle and trying to "move" it to go fast. Since we all have unique bio-mechanical issues, I think it best to emulate, but not imitate when it comes to paddling techniques so that you discover your own style that works best for you. Best of all, you derive this from just playing about in boats. To say there is bit of reading here is an understatement, but the discussion level is very high and often by folks who paddle a great deal. http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=3;read=68156 http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=2;read=68326 http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=2;read=68221 http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=2;read=68158 http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=3;read=68041 http://www.qajaqusa.org/cgi-bin/GreenlandT...ge=3;read=67964 Ed Lawson So here is may take on the forward stroke... it is the most difficult stroke to master. I came to this conclusion after taking a class w/ Karen Knight & Bob Foot about 8 years ago. During the class she related an incident in one of her classes for "experienced" guides, she asked them (about 10) to demonstrate a forward stroke w/ body rotation. None could do it. I have been working on it ever since. Two years ago @ the Sweet Water Symposium I was fortunate enough to get a private lesson w/ Jan Kleck, an L5 coach out of San Diego. This lesson was for a high angle stroke but should work for all, just adjust the level of your hand. One thing that she said was that you arms just connect your body to the paddle, nothing else. I plant the blade in the water (quietly, very big w/ Karen Knight), from their it is all body rotation, my high hand crosses in my line of sight parellel to the water. Watch your paddle & you will see that the blade stays perpendicular to your boat. It was a quantum leap for me. Next step was the Core Paddling coarse that Ben Lawry teaches, another quantum leap. We can chat about this all day & watch videos but until some one w/ great experience can place your hands in the proper position on the paddle & show you step by step how you body should unwind it will be almost impossible to put it together. My advice, contact Ben ( www.seacliffkayakers.com ). Well, there is my 2 cents ($3.95 w/ inflation) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcohn Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 The points I found interesting were that a paddle is actually a lever by which you move the boat and it should have minimal movement during the stroke except to extent it pivots on fulcrum point. The wet hand is the fulcrum point and the dry hand needs to move in a manner than maximizes the force that can be applied to the lever with minimal slippage. Also the amount of force applied depends upon inserting and maintaining the blade in the water with minimal disturbance so it can provide as solid an anchor for the lever as possible. You have cleverly selected the wrong "expert" opinion to believe. KB is only an expert on any topic in his own mind. In these discussions, you need to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. The much more authoritative statements probably flew right over your head. I assume a similar expert told you that a sailor would yell "starboard" at anything moving on the water. Has one of the other sailors in NSPN set you straight yet? Ralph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 The much more authoritative statements probably flew right over your head. Would you kindly specify which you consider to be such. Ed lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Thanks for the links, Ed (I think). I started to look through these links, and there's a ton of stuff about things I always wondered about - vortex creation, angle of attack. I may spend an entire season digesting this stuff and playing. I do wonder whether there is some point of diminishing returns in reference to authority - whereas getting a lot of viewpoints, and then getting out there and paddling a bunch might not be the best way to find an efficient form. The reason I mention this is because I helped coach my son's track team this year, and I saw a large variation in running styles that had their origin in different body types. (e.g. one leg is longer than the other and affects the stride). As a coach, I'd only go so far in working on the running style - I'd give the kids some hints of things to work with and let them try it out. When I did found that I was doing too much arm paddling, after working on my form, I found that I ended up with a more powerful stroke. I also like Rick's suggestion to sometimes let go and see what happens. One of the things that I love about kayaking is that I'm always learning new stuff, always experimenting. It's a wide open sport, and I haven't even touched the worlds of greenland or wing paddles (yet....I'm thining of trying greenland this summer). Onward thru the fog! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Onward thru the fog! Boy, there was a great deal of that last week around Stonington when the low settled in and stayed for days. Fortunately not too thick and sea state essentially calm. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted June 23, 2008 Author Share Posted June 23, 2008 When I did found that I was doing too much arm paddling, after working on my form, I found that I ended up with a more powerful stroke. I also like Rick's suggestion to sometimes let go and see what happens. you know i was thinking about what i typed and saw nicks post and i have to say that perhaps i didn't express myself very well. my point is move your boat. move the paddle...have different gears...have a low and slow all day stroke but have a "holy crap, lets move" stroke too. yes, torso rotation is good and while none of us are olympic athletes on k1's in flat water rotating your torso around is the most efficient, best way to move your boat forward - i wholeheartedly agree and if my stroke is any indication i apparently do more than talk this point as i tend to have a faster pace, high angle stroke...so, yeah....this seems to be a "good" thing. those guys in that video are the high end of that point, but to some degree we can all do it. all i'm really saying? move your boat fast...have a sprint speed...rotate and paddle as fast as you can but perhaps if you're at the point where you still have to "think" about it at that moment...stop worrying/thinking so much and just try to move the boat fast...by applying that "oomph" at judicious points in your day, you may end up over all working less as you'll catch that swell, or that wave and end up with some free mileage, or if it's what you're into, you might just being able to catch that occassional "whopper" that leaves you grinning and wanting more. gears=good. ...and ed - hope you had a great time in stonington! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 I hear ya, Rick. But, I have to "think" on this one - can't be Ebby Calhoun "Nuke" Lalouche.... I'm thinking that my lower gear is just torso rotation, and the higher gear has some arm work thrown on top. Anyway, I'm gonna give it a try the next time I'm faced with some tasty waves (which, unfortunately ain't today). "I just want to help the team, and the good lord willing, things will work out." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted June 23, 2008 Author Share Posted June 23, 2008 I hear ya, Rick. But, I have to "think" on this one - can't be Ebby Calhoun "Nuke" Lalouche.... I'm thinking that my lower gear is just torso rotation, and the higher gear has some arm work thrown on top. Anyway, I'm gonna give it a try the next time I'm faced with some tasty waves (which, unfortunately ain't today). "I just want to help the team, and the good lord willing, things will work out." if we get a break in the weather this week (or not...so long as it isn't thunderstorming out) i'd like to get out one night after work. if you can make it up to the northshore this way maybe we can get on the water and exchange ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 I hear ya, Rick. But, I have to "think" on this one - can't be Ebby Calhoun "Nuke" Lalouche....I'm thinking that my lower gear is just torso rotation, and the higher gear has some arm work thrown on top. Anyway, I'm gonna give it a try the next time I'm faced with some tasty waves (which, unfortunately ain't today). If we’re only talking eight or nine (?) strokes or less , I would guess this surf zone speed burst is not necessarily less efficient if done with some arm paddling , as long as the blade follows the same path through the water as with torso rotation, and you have enough strength in the arms to do it. For any extended period of time, however, it’s inefficient since the strong core muscles are, of course, not engaged. So, if this gets you a handful of super fast efficient strokes, then, okay, as long as it then doesn’t “infect” the rest of your paddling. Also, probably less advised for paddlers lacking Conan-like arm strength. But given the excercise regimens described in another thread, I suspect some of the principal contributors to this thread fall into this well- muscled category. For my part, as I am in the embryonic stages of “getting it” with torso rotation and the various ingredients that make up a not-awful forward stroke, I’m inclined to stick to that and not go back to arm paddling, but I have been critiqued that my RPMs need to increase at that surf-zone moment of truth, so I will try to do it with a standard forward stroke just revved up. If that doesn’t do it, I’ll mess with torso rotation abridgement once I feel confident that I’ve got the forward stroke rotation committed to muscle memory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcohn Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Would you kindly specify which you consider to be such. Ed lawson John Winters is very knowledgeable on these topics, his comment First the paddle functions as a rather special kind of lever called a couple. Understanding this will help in any calculations you decide to do when based upon forces acting on the shaft through the hands and how they relate to propulsion. contains far more insight into the relevant mechanics. Ralph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Schade Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 If we’re only talking eight or nine (?) strokes or less , I would guess this surf zone speed burst is not necessarily less efficient if done with some arm paddling , as long as the blade follows the same path through the water as with torso rotation, and you have enough strength in the arms to do it. As you say, the efficiency of the stroke will likely be dependent on its path through the water. But, a sprint is all about power. That means getting your torso involved. Arm paddling is fine if you need really fast cadence for some reason, but using your torso will produce the most power for the quickest acceleration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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