Learning to roll

[Guest guest]

Last night at the Chinatown pool session, Dee was spotting glenn and I as we tried to roll my boat, and gave us a very excellent tip of using a paddle float inflated and attached to one blade. Many of you may already know this technique, but it was new to me and extremely helpful. It slowed my impatient self down to get the right timing, and gave me a feel for what it felt like to roll without spazzing and sinking the blade.

I also tried to make sure I didn't grip the paddle too hard to get myself to stop muscling the boat up. As I came up I tried to end up looking at my paddle blade that was poised above the water like I was going to harpoon whatever just made me roll. This helped because it got me to keep my head down that direction. We reduced the air little by little from the paddle float as I practiced, and then removed it. Whee, suddenly I could roll the boat.

Anyone have other tips for learning to roll?

--b

[BOB L]

Congratz on the roll.

Bob Lambert

[stnoonan]

Hi Bethany,

I found that it was easiest for me to learn a sweep roll prior to a c-to-c. Everyone can do a sweep above water, so it is a natural progression to do the same thing when attempting a roll.

My hull design allows for a full lay back on the rear deck and I can nearly get the boat over without the paddle, with just a lay back and a twist of the hips. If you have a low rear deck, you should also try a sweep roll.

When you do get a roll down (no matter which type) I think it is important to stick to that one for a while until it becomes instinctual before adding more rolls to your quiver!

[eneumeier]

Bethany is too modest to mention also that she almost nailed the hand roll Saturday night. :-))

>I also tried to make sure I didn't grip the paddle too hard

>to get myself to stop muscling the boat up.

This is a good tip for me. When I have used the paddlefloat method I find myself hanging on for dear life, which only teaches me to put too much weight on the paddle so when I remove the float my paddle dives, fast.

I want to thank my spotter of the evening, Christopher Godfrey, for the loan of his very soft shoulder. He was teaching me how to scull and stood in deep enough water so that I could put my head on his shoulder for support, as needed, while I concentrated on my paddle and relaxing. No other instructor had used that method with me before, although I don't know whether Christopher invented it. I found it very helpful.

Actually, these different and creative ways of teaching people come up with reminded me of an article I read about why there are so few American baseball players in the major leagues and so many from poor countries. The author hypothesized that the pervasiveness of Little League baseball, where kids are taught how to stand at the plate and how to swing, etc., has actually reduced the amount of creativity and "finding what works for them." In poorer countries, kids still have to figure things out for themselves and, hence, develop some uniquely effective ways of doing things. It was an interesting article that challenged a lot of "conventional wisdom."

Liz N.

[djlewis]

Congratulations to you and to the helper Dee! It's always great when a suggestion pays off like that. (Marjorie gave me a couple of those that got me over the hump.)

Yes, a slowly reduced paddle float helped me too. But ultimately, I had to learn to glue my head to my shoulder despite all habits and instincts to the contrary. And actually working with the paddle float sometimes let me get away without that.

Next question -- is there a similar trick for sculling support? I'm having a fairly tough time mastering that, despite a pretty reliable roll, in the pool at least. I made some progress last night with Chris (thanks, Chris!).

At one point we tried a paddle float, but it did not help much. I'm now thinking of a long, deliberate sweep roll with the paddle fairly far out, then just kinda slow almost to a stop in the middle, and reverse paddle direction into a scull. Will that work, assuming I do more or less the right things with body and arm position? Slowing a C-to-C or short-sweep roll did not help much at all, perhaps because it happens too fast and seems to depend too much on momentum.

--David.

[Guest guest]

From the last Chinatown pool session, many, many thanks go to roll master Sing. He has been patiently (this man has patience, believe me) been teaching me over the weeks the benefits of not just to roll but also to scull. The purpose of learning dual techniques simultaneously is that if you blow your roll, you can always scull, get your breathe, relax, then try to roll again. The dual technique cuts down on the panic when you blow a roll. Initially it is more demanding on me to learn both roll and scull simultaneously; but, what Sing is teaching is priceless if not life-saving. One more testimonial on the value of pool sessions-les

[Shane]

Congrats Bethany on your roll - that's a big deal! Keep working it!

This past year, I pretty much worked on the roll entirely (now working on the offside - yuck) at the expense of everything else. One learning for me was to quit when you get tired though. When I'm driven to get something down, I tend to not notice my noodley (?) arms and everything goes to squat including my confidence. If NSPN gets Bob Foote back, he really helped me put it all together, especially the confidence thing.

Lastly, getting the extended paddle roll was very simple and quick and gave me a very reliable (calm water) roll when my C-to-C failed. I've never had to use it for real, but it's at least in the "bag of tricks". I've got a goofy but good video that I learned it from if you want to borrow it - just let me know.

Way to go - CONGRATS!

_Shane

"Would a knife help protect you against a ‘curious’ shark? I don’t know but I would like the option." - Trevor Gardner

[Guest guest]

That's good advice, thanks. Which video do you have? We have the Performance one (which in order to understand we were rolling around upside down on the floor crashing into each other and laughing our heads off).

--b

[Shane]

I have three:

1) "Grace Under Pressure" (VHS) - EXTREMELY mega-goofy, but excellent at documenting the the C-to-C roll. Recommended to me 2 years ago at Maine Outfitters.

2) "First Roll" (VHS) - Not quite as goofy, but still way up there. Excellent documentation on the extended paddle roll. <--- This is the one I was referencing above.

3) "The Kayak Roll" (DVD) - A new one for me - haven't sat all the way through it in detail. I think it talks about the sweep or screw roll, but seems to have good analysis on cause-effect mistakes.

Let me know if you want to borrow any - no worries!

_Shane

"Would a knife help protect you against a ‘curious’ shark? I don’t know but I would like the option." - Trevor Gardner

[Guest guest]

http://www.qajaqusa.org/common_images/gp_straightjacket.mpg

Take a look at this..........

[John Leonard]

>http://www.qajaqusa.org/common_images/gp_straightjacket.mpg

>

>Take a look at this..........

That is just SO wrong!

[Guest guest]

http://www.qajaqusa.org/common_images/gp_roll_hand_brick.mpg

Ok look at this...

[Brian Nystrom]

That's 17.6 pounds, American!

[eneumeier]

Then again, come to the Reading Pool session on March 7 and see what our own Sanjay Gulati can do.

Liz N.

[kattenbo]

The key things to take away from these videos (cruise the site - there are lots more) is that successful rolling is mostly about body control, not the paddle. The paddle is an aid, but focusing on what you are doing with the boat is even more important.

Keith

--------------

Still paddling Romany's -- the best all round boat (for me) on the water

Still using skinny sticks -- 'cause they're so much fun

Still think folks should use whatever puts the biggest smile on their face.

[stnoonan]

This technique will come in real handy whenever I paddle with my very best brick. I would hate to lose it.

[markstephens]

I've been using a paddle float to learn to roll this winter and, during a routine equipment check today, found a hole in my float and some other serious abrasions as well. I don't know if it is getting dragged over hardware on the boat, pool copings, or what. Then again, I lent it out to a whitewater boater to try last week

Tried patching it with DAP and a bicycle repair patch. Fortunately, one side is still solid and I never inflate both sides anyway, but these floats are not heavy duty vinyl. In a normal self-rescue they aren't coming into contact with anything but the paddle and the water, but it would be nice to see such an important piece of safety equipment overbuilt a little bit.

Mark

[djlewis]

I think the overbuilding of inflatable paddle floats is having two chambers, but needing only one. Given that, you might not want to rely on it with one chamber definitely questionable.

--David.

[Shane]

If your really geeked about using a float as an aide to learn a roll, you may consider using a 3" foam block with a slit in it.

I have to agree with the other posts about whether this is a great way to learn though. I think a dedicated spotter helping you (and the boat) get the moves right is definitely preferred but different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

_Shane

"Would a knife help protect you against a ‘curious’ shark? I don’t know but I would like the option." - Trevor Gardner

[markstephens]

I think a dedicated spotter helping you (and the boat) get the moves right is definitely preferred

No disagreement there, Shane, but it is also a definite luxury. I haven't got any "buds" to spend the time teaching me, or spotting me, so I'm doing the best I can. The foam block is an option, but the nice thing with the float is that you can gradually wean yourself off the support by letting out the air little by little. You would need a whole portfolio of foam blocks of different thicknesses to match that.

Hey, if learning to roll costs me one paddle float (and a bunch of pool fees), its a good deal!

[Shane]

No doubt Mark - I may be guilty of using a float once or twice myself. :|

Gotta use what you got; hopefully no hard feelings.

_Shane

"Would a knife help protect you against a ‘curious’ shark? I don’t know but I would like the option." - Trevor Gardner

[Dee Hall]

Some will argue that one should learn to scull before learning to roll. If you can scull well enough to bring your head up for air, there is no nead for a spotter. However, for most people sculling seems to be more difficult than rolling.

-Dee

[djlewis]

>...for most people sculling seems to be more difficult than rolling.

Why is that? Sculling for support is part of the BCU 3 criteria, but rolling is only half so...

>>Sculling for support. The paddle to be kept low, nearly horizontal, with evidence of confident committal to the paddle.

>>Rolling. The candidate should come up within three attempts, during each of which the assessor may guide or hold the blade of the paddle, but not touch the boat or paddler. A half roll is acceptable (i.e. down and up on the same side).

Or maybe the sculling for support in BCU 3-star does not require you to have your shoulders in the water, merely to be well leaned with support from the paddle.

BCU folks -- can you help?

But still the original question -- why is a full scull for support usually harder to learn than a roll? One odd theory I have is that the teaching techniques for it are not as well developed, and that's because it doesn't have the obvious dramatic appeal of a roll. Rolling is an integral part of whitewater kayaking, so it gets a lot of play that way. But is the full scull for support as important or even useful at all for whitewater? I tend to doubt it, but I don't really know.

Thanks. --David.

[Guest guest]

David- I think that sculling for support is harder to learn for several reasons. You may well have a point that the teaching techniques are not as well developed, and aids like the paddle float assist do not work as well. In addition, I think that edge control on your paddle is more essential and needs to be more nuanced, since you are sweeping backward as well as forward. Time and patience are also elements, as you are spending much more time edged past the point of final stability, and so may have a tendency to rush. A roll is a pretty quick event, but sculling for support if done correctly should not be a blink of the eye. Finally, I think that because sculling is slo-oo-ow, students often feel their body starting to sink away from the surface before the lift of the paddle sweeping back and forth becomes evident, panic and lock up their hips and torso, lift their heads just a little bit and so drive the edge of the boat down. As for BCU, my assessors have been quite insistent on my ear, elbow and shoulder being in the water on both sides to qualify as acceptable technique. Others may have had different experiences...

Alex L

[djlewis]

>Finally, I think

>that because sculling is slo-oo-ow, students often feel

>their body starting to sink away from the surface before the

>lift of the paddle sweeping back and forth becomes evident,

>panic and lock up their hips and torso, lift their heads

>just a little bit and so drive the edge of the boat down.

Hmmm... sounds familiar. ;-(

>As for BCU, my assessors have been quite insistent on my ear,

>elbow and shoulder being in the water on both sides to

>qualify as acceptable technique. Others may have had

>different experiences...

I find it hard to believe that 3* would require only an assisted roll, with three tries, on one side, but insist on a full scull on both sides. Further evidence is what the BCU 3* test notes say (at http://www.bcu.org.uk/pdfdocs/1-4%20star%2...ed%20kayak.pdf) ...

>>...low and high sculling for support on both sides.

>> Sculling for support. The paddle to be kept low, nearly

>> horizontal, with evidence of confident committal to the paddle.

Does it make sense to say the paddle has to be low and nearly horizontal for a full wet-shoulders scull? If your outboard elbow is under water, the paddle could scarcely be anything but low. A too low (that is, diving) paddle is more likely the problem (and I speak from experience there).

Also, as I'm beginning to understand (thanks to Mike Crouse this very afternoon!) full sculling for support is more a matter of body and boat position, with very little paddle pressure needed. So does it make sense to speak of "confident committal to the paddle"? In fact, that sounds more like a good committed lean with an ongoing scull to keep braced, as opposed to a quick slap and hip-snapped recovery. Also, the BCU speaks of both and high and low sculling, and it seems to me the only kind of wet-shoulders sculling possible is high.

Sorry for the intense textual exegesis of the 3-Star Gospel of BCU. But I may have convinced at least myself that those who interpret that passage as wet-shoulders sculling are stretching things. Actually, it may be even more than that. Arey the taking one technique -- sculling with significant paddle support -- and substituting a rather different one -- wet-shoulders sculling along the lines of a balance brace with light sculling?

Of course, they are the bosses, right?!

Anybody recall what Nigel Foster said in his 3-star class last summer? He did mention this issue, but the exact expression escapes me.

--David