Leaky Hatches Poll

[Dee Hall]

Dan Lacey wrote as part of another thread:

"Ok,I have to be honest. I really like my Explorer. Aside from the useless seat arrangement,I haven't had any serious issues. Sooo..there's a little water in the forward hatch, that's normal isn't it?"

This is a good question that I don't remember being answered during the time I have been reading the board. I know, I know, we should never rely on dry hatches and put our stuff in dry bags and add flotation, etc., but should a modern boat be expected to have dry hatches?

I think the question can best be answered by seeing how many members find water in their hatches after rough water play. I think it would be best to list each boat, how many dry hatches and how many wet hatches it has. Anonymous boats are ok too. I will try to start it off.

Currituck w/VCP hatches:

2 dry hatches after repairs to huge holes in bulkheads from previous owner

1 slightly wet hatch which was bone dry before the fire (don't ask)

Dagger Baja w/knock off of Kajaksport hatches:

1 somewhat wet hatch

1 dry hatch with undersized and therefore very tight cover

[Shane]

Bren and I both have CD Andromedas - our experience so far with them is very consistent.

All Kayaksport hatch covers:

Front hatch: dry

Day Hatch: Extremely dry

Rear Hatch: very small/slight leakage

I figured the quality of the seal has something to do with the size of the hatch cover?

_Shane

"Would a knife help protect you against a ‘curious’ shark? I don’t know but I would like the option." - Trevor Gardner

[stnoonan]

Boreal Ellesmere:

2 wet hatches; one very much so. Kayaksport covers. It was discovered at the workshop this weekend that at least two of the three Ellesmeres there had major cracking in the hatch rings, and in my case, gaps in the seal under the rings, both of which were letting water in. I filled my cracks and voids with 5200 and hopefully that will be the end of it.

My vote is that, yes, modern boats should be built with dry hatches.

[alcoons]

Eddyline Nighthawk

Not a drop inside during the first season - even after a serious 1/2 roll onto the beach.

Al

[Guest guest]

My Ellesmere is this the one of the three at the workshop that has no leakage. But, it is quite new and the other two at the workshop where a few years older. Mine don't leak. This is my second Ellesmere. The first one didn't leak unless the hatch covers were not seated just so.

I've owned two CD Gulfstreams, both have been dry, but I understand that has not been the experience of others.

I would like, however, to put in a plug for Boreal and encourage anyone with a problem with their boats to contact Boreal rather than suffer in silence. I recently e-mailed them with a back band problem. Not only did they telephone me about it, they quickly sent a replacement part and detailed instructions for installation. I cannot tell you how they bent over backward to make certain I had what I needed. What a refreshing change from some of the other manufacturers out there.

Jill

[Guest guest]

P&H quest: bought new dry all three Kajaksport

Seaward foster Shadow bought new: day hatch always bone dry. Other two (vcp ovals) vulnerable unless care is taken to get the ovals well aligned.

Q500 bought used front hatch wet, rear hatch dry do not buy a q500 if you want to become a performance kayaker.

I'll review the explorer and pintail hatches/cargo spaces when I replace the covers as I bought both of these boats used and they need it.

I have never seen more than two quarts of water in any storage compartment of my boats ever. Even the used ones where the previous idiot owner had drilled two tiny holes in each of the hatches.

[ccarlson]

Boreal Ellesmere:

Front hatch dry, day hatch dry, rear hatch dry except on the occasion that I don't seat the cover properly. I did have to fit a bungie ring on the rear oval hatch to keep it consistently dry... I think the cover may be slightly distorted (used boat). All Kajaksport.

CD Solstice ST:

Front hatch dry (VCP 7" round). Rear hatch occasional minor leakage (maybe a quarter cup) during lots of reentry practice where the somehwhat flexible plastic hatch cover (CD proprietary design) oilcans a little and distorts the seal a bit. In normal use, rear hatch dry.

So, have never experienced the dreaded flooded hatch syndrome... not complaining!

[Bill Gwynn]

Front - Dry

Day - Dry

Rear - <1/2 cup

P&H Capella (Kevlar)

[gerry s]

Hand built wood strip

both hatches bone dry

Gerry S

Woodstripper

[markstephens]

I tend to suspect that any water in my bulkheads is coming from the cockpit through the (foam) bulkhead walls, rather than through the hatches. With a nylon sprayskirt, and size 13 feet, I often have some water sloshing around the cockpit. So I wonder how folks know that their hatches are leaky versus their bulkhead walls. I suppose with fiberglass bulkheads this is unlikely?

A related issue to this came up this weekend regarding possible bulkhead implosion with airtight bulkheads due to extreme temperature changes (from warm to cold), i.e. - when leaving the outfitting workshop for example and taking the boats back out into the cold. I noticed many boats arrived on Saturday without hatch covers, presumably because of this potential problem. However, I don't remember anyone taking off their hatch covers before leaving the 70-80 degree swimming pool last weekend at the Chinatown pool session and taking boats back out into the basically zero degree weather. What am I missing?

Mark Stephens

Surge, Usually Bone-Dry Front and Aft.

[Shane]

I didn't put the cockpit cover my boat after the workshop for the way home, because I wanted it to ventilate (I worked on putting a foam bulkhead in).

If it were really cold outside and there is some water in the boat, I probably would hesitate and choose not to take my hatches off due to the water freezing inside - perhaps that is the reason from the pool?

Normally though, I strongly prefer a good "blow dry" of my boat's inners on the way home from paddling and so I leave the hatches off. That is of course, unless it's raining.

_Shane

"Would a knife help protect you against a ‘curious’ shark? I don’t know but I would like the option." - Trevor Gardner

[Suz]

VCP Argonaut - VCP hatches with the inset rim -all dry hatches when "double" sealed.

If I don't pull the the covers off before leaving a warm area to a cold, the hatches get way too tight for me to remove at all. The hatch covers indent and they become impossible for me to remove at all. This even happened when taking the boat out of a 20 degree unheated garage and went to a zero degree outside - took me a 10 minute fight to get one of the covers off.

Suzanne

[B]

NDK Explorer - all compartments are bone dry.

CD Gulfstream - a little leaky in the fore and aft compartments.

B

[Michael_Crouse]

Foster-Rowe Shadow

VCP oval hatches and day hatch

All dry when double sealed

The VCP hatches are a pain to get on and off but they work.

CD Gulfstream

Kajak Sport hatches, round front, day hatch, and oval rear hatch

They leaked like crazy, I removed the hatch rings, cleaned them up and reinstalled them, now they're nice and dry

If you saw the original install you would have thought that sealant costs $1000 per ounce! It wasn't the hatches fault, they weren't installed correctly.

A very old Mariner I (west coast boat)

front screw hatch and a large rear hatch that has a plastic and a neoprene seal

Both dry so far but I haven't done nearly enough testing

[BOB L]

Cappella both hatchs always wet after any type of exit and reentry. There are holes put in by the factor in each of the bulkheads dead center of each bulkhead. I check they were on the new in the showroom ones also.

Bob Lambert

Blue Cappella

[tvcrider]

Nigel Foster Silhouette (by Seaward)

2 VCP oval hatches and day hatch

Bow and day hatch dry when properly "double-sealed"

Aft oval hatch - 3 to 4 tablespoons of water after rolling practice.

Comments/Observations: Initially I made a rookie mistake in installing my VCP hatch covers. I was taking on water through both oval hatches after extensive rolling practice. I mentioned this to a more experienced paddler and they observed my installation technique. Others have mentioned making a "double-seal", which involves pushing the outer edge of the VCP cover tight against the hatch ring. I was not doing this. I was just putting the hatch covers on more like Tupperware lids. Snap and go! Making a proper double-seal immediately fixed the leak in my bow compartment. I still take on about 3 tablespoons of water in my aft compartment after multiple rolls, but I had been taking on more. I have not been able to track down that last leak. I tried filling the aft compartment with water and slowly rolling the boat 360 degrees, but no leakage was evident. Later in the spring when it warms up I will have to exchange some notes with Sir Brian to see if I can determine exactly where this last bit of water is coming from.

Joe Galloway

"The older I get, the better I was."

[Dee Hall]

>I tend to suspect that any water in my bulkheads is coming

>from the cockpit through the (foam) bulkhead walls, rather

>than through the hatches. With a nylon sprayskirt, and size

>13 feet, I often have some water sloshing around the

>cockpit. So I wonder how folks know that their hatches are

>leaky versus their bulkhead walls. I suppose with fiberglass

>bulkheads this is unlikely?

>

To see if water is coming through the bulkhead, fill the cockpit with water while you are at home. You will see the water leaking in.

[Brian Nystrom]

...of the commercial boats I've owned and worked on, all but one have had leaks of various types. I've had VCP and proprietary rubber hatch covers, and Bowmar and Beckson deck plates. Here are some things I've learned.

1) Don't assume that all leaks are due to poorly sealed hatches. I've had boats that leaked through:

- The bow/stern toggle holes. The end pour was too small and the toggle rope hole was drilled behind it, into the compartment.

- Bulkheads. Poor sealing around the edges of foam bulkheads, gaps and pinholes in the fiberglass seal on glass bulkheads.

- Recessed deck fittings, through the screws or pinholes in the fitting itself.

- Deck mounted bilge pump. The one in my Nordkapp always dripped on my knees.

- Deck mounted compass, through the screws or pinholes in the recess.

- Skeg boxes or fittings. The common causes are poorly installed skeg boxes, inadequately tightened clamps or deck fittings (rope skeg) and poorly installed/sealed skeg box fittings (cable skegs).

- Cracked hatch rims. One thing I learned at the workshop is that this is a problem whether the rim is attached with screws or simply with sealant. Sean demonstrated that finding cracks is easy using a flashlight from inside the hatch rim.

- Improperly sealed hatch rims. Never assume that the factory used enough sealant or epoxy, or that it bonded properly.

2) Breather (vent) holes in bulkheads REDUCE leakage. This may seem counterintuitive, but it makes sense if you think about it. If you put a warm boat on cold water and your hatches are well sealed, it causes low pressure in the compartments, which will tend to draw in air and/or water from any minor fissure and from around the hatch cover. Breather holes eliminate pressure differentials, preventing that from happening. They also eliminate the possibility of damage to the boat when it's cooled or heated rapidly (cool garage, hot day), or driven to altitude where the outside air pressure decreases.

All that's necessary is a tiny hole in each bulkhead, 1/32" is enough. With foam bulkheads, I simply poke a thin wire (bicycle spoke) through, then insert a piece of the tubing that comes with spray lubes. I locate my breather holes an inch or so above the center of the bulkhead, based on the premise that the potential water level in the cockpit is likely to be higher with the boat upright than with it inverted.

I have put breather holes in every boat I've owned (plus several others) and have never seen any leakage that could be attributed to them.

3) Screws through the hull or deck are ALWAYS suspect. All it takes is a bit of sealant under the screw heads to eliminate this problem, but that's apparently too much to ask of some manufacturers. Screws with rubber seals should be checked, as the seals can rot and/or split.

4) Hatch seals can be improved.

- Bungee loops around VCP and Kajak sport hatches improve the seal and can also function as attachment points for hatch tethers.

- Leaky deck plates can be made watertight by wrapping tape in the O-ring grooves, under the O-ring. This creates a tighter fit, but it may necessitate lubricating the O-rings with silicone spray in order to reduce friction during installation. Use only SILICONE spray.

- Double sealing VCP hatch covers can make a big difference. Unfortunately, it can also be difficult to do on boats where the hatch hole in the deck is too small or the hatch ring is mounted off center. It may be necessary to carefully trim the hatch cover flange in order to be able to double seal it.

[Tom Miner]

NDK Explorer - all compartments dry

Rear compartment leaked before sealing skeg cable fitting w/ silicone

Tom Miner

[Richard N]

Cracked Rims:

It was interesting to note that cracked rims were more prevelent on boats with thin flexable decks. It could be that the cracks are a result of flexing caused by internal and/or external pressure.

Breather Holes:

Although I was initially impressed by the reasoning to put breather holes in bulkheads, my current feeling is that it defeats the safety feature of a watertight chamber. For sure, a small breather hole will equalize the pressure. But, if you hole your boat, a breather hole will enable a watertight chamber to quickly flood with water. Although hatch covers are relatively easy to open from the outside, they are almost impossable to dislodge under internal pressure. IMHO a more prudent (costly) alternative is to have a second set of covers with breather holes. The covers would only be used for transport or storage.

Example: Imagine a cup of coffee with or without a breather hole in the lid!

Although my Romany is only one year old, I have not experienced any appreciable leaking. Except for a few drops (maybe as much as a tablespoonful) that occasionally leak from the skeg box cable connection, the tightly sealed compartments are always dry.

Richard

Living to learn.

Romany White, Blue trim

[Guest guest]

Pursuit, twin of Currituck

Front and rear Dry

Day was wet, dry/damp after a little silicon

Wilderness Systems Epic, a cup or two everywhere

Wayne

[mskulick]

99 VCP Pintail-all dry*

03 VCP Avocet RM- all dry*

03 NDK Explorer- all dry*

03 P&H Sirius- both dry (no day hatch)*

Note all are VCP except fore and aft round (Kajaksport)

on the Explorer.

*All are dry only when "double-sealed"

After a lot of rolling, I get a very slight amt of

water in the aft compartment of the Explorer from

the skeg tube. The double sealing on the Avocet is

very difficult on a cold morning. I usually help

Michele with the hatches, even when she insists she

doesn't need the help!

The 303 happens after every trip when the hatches are

stored. (I take them off the boats stored in Mother-

in-law's garage, as I have heard the auto exhaust

can have an adverse effect on the rubber.) The 303

seems to act also as a lubricant of sorts and does

make it easier to remove and install the hatches.

I think at least one of the kayaks has vent holes in

the bulkheads, though right now I can't remember which

it might be. Seems like a good idea.

Mike.

[Dee Hall]

>Breather Holes:

>Although I was initially impressed by the reasoning to put

>breather holes in bulkheads, my current feeling is that it

>defeats the safety feature of a watertight chamber. For

>sure, a small breather hole will equalize the pressure.

>But, if you hole your boat, a breather hole will enable a

>watertight chamber to quickly flood with water. Although

>hatch covers are relatively easy to open from the outside,

>they are almost impossable to dislodge under internal

>pressure. IMHO a more prudent (costly) alternative is to

>have a second set of covers with breather holes. The covers

>would only be used for transport or storage.

>Example: Imagine a cup of coffee with or without a breather

>hole in the lid!

>

A small breather hole above the water line will permit only the smallest volume of air to pass through, and that is only when there is a significant pressure differential across the bulkhead. If you get a hole in your boat below the waterline, a much higher pressure differential will be a function of the depth of the water at the

hole. If the new hole is small, water will seep in as a result of the high differential and the breather hole will have negligible effect.

If the hole is large, a high differential pressure will not exist for very long as the sloshing of the water under a sea kayak will allow air to be quickly exchanged for water. Again, the effect of the breather hole will be negligible.

The point made earlier about the air in the hatch cooling is quite valid. The cooling air will drop the pressure inside which will suck water that is around the hatch cover in through the seal. It is something that I hadn't considered before. I will be adding breather holes to my bulkheads.

[Richard N]

>A small breather hole above the water line will permit only

>the smallest volume of air to pass through, and that is only

>when there is a significant pressure differential across the

>bulkhead. If you get a hole in your boat below the

>waterline, a much higher pressure differential will be a

>function of the depth of the water at the

>hole. If the new hole is small, water will seep in as a

>result of the high differential and the breather hole will

>have negligible effect.

>

>If the hole is large, a high differential pressure will not

>exist for very long as the sloshing of the water under a sea

>kayak will allow air to be quickly exchanged for water.

>Again, the effect of the breather hole will be negligible.

Dee:

Although the amount of water passing through the breather hole will not be great. The real problem is that a breather hole enables a holed chamber to easily fill with water up to the height of the breather.

Basic physics dictates the following:

The size of the breather hole does not effect the amount of water that will enter a holed chamber. It only effects the speed (gph).

A very small pin hole in a coffee lid allows the contents to flow at a considerable rate.

Assuming no other leaks in the chamber, a breather hole at the water line will allow water to enter the chamber slightly above the height of the breather hole. Then, because of the added water in the holed chamber, your waterline will be lower thus forcing water through the breather hole into the adjoining chamber. Water will enter the holed chamber at the same rate as water passing (under pressure) through the breather hole.

A breather hole below the water line will cause water to flow into the adjoining chamber until the pressure is equalized. If you have a breather hole in a cockpit bulkhead (not a sealed chamber), water will continue to squirt through the breather hole into your cockpit.

Richard

Living to learn.

Romany White, Blue trim

[eneumeier]

This is the best thread we have had on this board in a long time. Thanks Dee, for starting it. Are you going to total the results?

Gulfstream 2000 (Kevlar): CD installed the hatches correctly, a good thing given the extra cost of kevlar. I did have a small (as in tablespoons) leak in my back hatch. It drove me NUTS. I wanted it DRY. Mike Crouse's problems lead me to test my skeg box, cables, etc. ad nauseum. In the midst of the summer drought I wasted huge quantities of water in my driveway. I finally found the problem: one of the deck fittings lacked an O ring. Drip, drip, drip. NO MORE.

My day hatch leaked a bit also, after 2 years or so. One of the screws holding the rim had loosened.

Final and more significant issue for CD boats (and Mike Crouse's bigger complaint): the seal at the bottom of the bulkhead between the cockpit and day hatch failed, letting water into the day hatch. I had to clean it out and reseal it, which was harder than it sounds.

Can't talk about Viviane, yet.

Liz N.