Plum Island, June 4, 2006 (Long post)

[rwolson]

First, glad you're still here. Also, thanks for sharing your experiences, tips, observations, whatever. Great lessons for all of us.

I know the area from fishing by foot and boat. Do you think recent storms might have changed the sandbars and waterflow which might have caused problems?

[kattenbo]

Gene - I've stuck my responses below...

I was wondering.

>Did the choice of a hard chined boat make things more

>difficult in the conditions you were in? In my limited

>experience, soft chines seem to be more forgiving in

>broaching seas.

Possibly, a couple of folks have mentioned that hard chines can make the boat more twitchy. On the other hand, John's Anas Acuta is a hard chine boat and he was doing ok until he got looped - which had nothing to do with his hull shape.

I am sure the bigger effect was the amount of time in that boat in a variety of conditions. I had only owned the Q-boat for about 3 months or so and while I had had it out in higher winds (20kts) but smaller (2ft - 4 ft) more regular waves earlier in the year and been okay (went over once, rolled up), it's not the same as the 10 years I have in the Romany Explorer (soft chine). Being familiar with what you are paddling is crucial - and only comes from paddling in a variety of environments.

>Also, while you did have almost everything

>in the way of equipment and years of experience going for

>you, would the addition of a pair of inflatable sea sponsons

>that could be quickly clipped to the boat allowed one of you

>to re-enter Johns boat?

It's hard to say - I have not experience with that paricular piece of gear. I know there are people who believe strongly both ways.

Keith

[kattenbo]

Response below:

>Thanks for a very through report. Several questions come to

>mind. Your radio quit after two hours. Was this an equipment

>failure or did the radio battery not have a good charge?

>What brand radio was it? Was the second radio in a dry bag?

It was battery drain. The radio showed full charge when I launched, but drained over the time of use. I had not had it in the charger for some time. It is a Standard HX350S submersible that I've had for a while. The second radio was in a dry bag in the day hatch.

>Could you comment as to the wisdom of carrying gear on your

>person (or attached) versus stowing it. It strikes me that

>if you had lost the boat with the radio in stowage it may

>have impacted the outcome.

I believe you can only be sure of the gear you carry on you. My boat left in a hurry and I know of other paddlers in similar circumstances who have also lost their boats. While in our case I think the lack of the second radio would have made things slower, fortunately it probably would not have altered the final outcome - but that's only because USCG was already on station when we switched

>Would orange smoke have worked better than a flare? Can you

>think of a better way to retain the flares attached to the

>flare gun?

That's one of the questions I'm going to ask the USCG next time I talk to them. The flare seemed to be helpful the first time in generally pointing out our location. It strikes me that smoke would have helped as well once folks were in the area. But smoke is bigger to carry and also has limited duration - both is probably best (I've bought smoke).

I've seen flare pistols that have a clip to attach the flares to the gun - you'd have to try to see how that worked.

>Sorry to pose so many questions but I believe there are many

>ways to learn from your experience. Thankfully you walked

>away which isn't always the case.

[kattenbo]

>First, glad you're still here. Also, thanks for sharing

>your experiences, tips, observations, whatever. Great

>lessons for all of us.

Thanks - we really appreciate your comment and similar comments from everyone. Really.

>

>I know the area from fishing by foot and boat. Do you think

>recent storms might have changed the sandbars and waterflow

>which might have caused problems?

I'm sure the bars are changed from the reports from folks who know the area. It is apparently the nature of such locations to constantly change - generally in small increments under normal conditions and more dramatically in storms. I suspect it was more the general nature of the area and conditions than any specific change that caused the problems.

Keith

[B]

Keith and John

Your courage to share your experience is something to be admired.

Your friend always,

Bob

Bob Burnett

Seattle

Puget Sound Paddlers Network

[scamlin]

The current in Plum Island sound turns about an hour AFTER high water due to the size of the basin it drains. So at 10:30 AM was actually at the mid-point of the ebb.

Scott

[Brian Nystrom]

I think you're confusing NiMH (Nickel-Metal-Hydride) batteries with Lithiun-ion batteries. The former will self-discharge over time (~10%/month), the latter will not. Lithium-ion batteries are the best of the rechargeables that are currently available. They also have the longest life for a given size battery, with many radios claiming in excess of 20 hours, though that is under much lower usage conditions than Keith and John's predicament required.

[Brian Nystrom]

Your willingness to share this experience in detail is absolutely invaluable. The report highlights the effects of choices and decision making and the benefits of experience and preparedness. It also creates a strong incentive to all of us re-evaluate our own levels of same and our typical practices when out on the water. Complacency and overconfidence are insideous, easy to slip into and potentially dangerous. I'm not suggesting that you and John were suffering from either (you were simply overwhelmed by the conditions), but I certainly may be. It's time to take a hard look in the mirror.

Again, I'm glad you made it back in one piece and thanks for sharing this experience with us.

[djlewis]

Regarding Li-ion shelf life -- I frequently find my radio (ICOM M88) essentially fully charged even after several weeks on the shelf. I am always amazed when I put it in the charger and the green "is charging" light rapidly goes off.

--David

[EEL]

Your taking the time to respond to follow up questions is very impressive and your refusal to grap any one element and claim it was "the" cause is highly commendable. They have been quite valuable.

>

>It was battery drain. The radio showed full charge when I

>launched, but drained over the time of use. I had not had

>it in the charger for some time.

This highlights three issues:

1. When these radios have a little graph or icon for the state of the battery's charge, they are really reading the battery's voltage as opposed to the remaining charge/capacity of the battery. A trait, which has good and bad aspects, of NiCads is they maintain their rated voltage for a long time as the battery discharges and then they suddenly fall off at the end. So the voltage can still be good, but the capacity can be rather low which in turn means the radio's battery indicator is very imperfect measure of the status of the battery's charge status.

2. NiCads have a relatively high self discharge rate while "on the shelf" which means unless you keep track of when they were last charged and how much use they have had, it is impossible to judge charge/capacity status and likely result in a false sense of the battery's state.

3. Due to their characteristics, NiCads do not have a "memory" problem per se, but they do suffer from a variety of problems usually caused by improper charging which cause the symptoms that people erroneously refer to as a "memory" problem. So in a technical sense they do not have a "memory" problem, but they can have problems that are, as a practical matter, functionally the same to the user. Unfortunately, they inherently need regular charging and the odds are the more they are charged the more likely they will develop these problems due to the quality of the charging circuits used in consumer grade stuff.

So these three issues can result in a radio not lasting as long as expected and point to the need to pay attention to how and when it is used and the battery charged.

Ed Lawson

[Brian Nystrom]

"1. When these radios have a little graph or icon for the state of the battery's charge, they are really reading the battery's voltage as opposed to the remaining charge/capacity of the battery. A trait, which has good and bad aspects, of NiCads is they maintain their rated voltage for a long time as the battery discharges and then they suddenly fall off at the end. So the voltage can still be good, but the capacity can be rather low which in turn means the radio's battery indicator is very imperfect measure of the status of the battery's charge status."

Perhaps more important is how many of us look at the tiny battery indicator, or can even see it, for that matter. Icom radios can be configured to display the battery voltage in large digits at power up. This works well with Lithium-ion batteries. When my radio is fully charged, it reads 8.2-8.3 volts. When it gets down to 7.2 or so (the nominal battery voltage, IIRC) I recharge it. Sometimes, it takes months for the voltage to drop that low.

"point to the need to pay attention to how and when it is used and the battery charged."

Amen to that.

[WesPB]

Thanks for comprehensive report and comments.

Was wondering if use of GPS with coordinates may have sped up your location.

I know it is one more gadget that can fail but they have bailed me

out in mountain whiteouts when your location is not always clear.

thanks, Wes

[kattenbo]

>Thanks for comprehensive report and comments.

>Was wondering if use of GPS with coordinates may have sped

>up your location.

>I know it is one more gadget that can fail but they have

>bailed me

>out in mountain whiteouts when your location is not always

>clear.

>thanks, Wes

One of the transmissions we heard (couldn't tell if it was to us) was a request for GPS coord. Assuming the device was working, that we could hang on to it, operate it and read it then yes, it would have been useful in pinpointing our location. One of the reasons the helicopter was launched was because of "poor comms and uncertain location" - passing GPS coord would have addressed one of those issues.

Keith

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Keith and John,

I'll add my voice to the chorus of those who have expressed gratitude that the both of you came through that experience relatively unscathed. In regards to the radio in the day hatch, was it difficult to access in those conditions? I know quite a few people who keep their radio in that location for a variety of reasons and I'm just curious if that's still a sound idea in light of your recent experience.

[kattenbo]

>Keith and John,

>

>I'll add my voice to the chorus of those who have expressed

>gratitude that the both of you came through that experience

>relatively unscathed. In regards to the radio in the day

>hatch, was it difficult to access in those conditions? I

>know quite a few people who keep their radio in that

>location for a variety of reasons and I'm just curious if

>that's still a sound idea in light of your recent

>experience.

Kevin;

I'm not sure if John is monitoring the thread so I'll respond and see if he comments.

He succeeded, so it is a doable thing. He managed to get the hatch open enough to get at the radio, get the wrist strap on and re seal the hatch. I don't think he would have been able to do that had he been in the boat (reaching behind himself) in those conditions. I don't know if I helped by steadying the boat and if that made a difference as well.

I think the real question is not so much can I get it if I still have the boat as what happens if I don't have access to the boat. If my radio had been on my deck or in the day hatch it would have been gone.

Make sense?

Keith

[djlewis]

>I think the real question is not so much can I get it if I

>still have the boat as what happens if I don't have access

>to the boat. If my radio had been on my deck or in the day

>hatch it would have been gone.

This discussion puts an exclamation point -- for me anyway -- on carrying my radio in/on my pfd.

Whether it's in a dry bag or open to the elements is another question. I have an ICOM M88 and have never personally had it fail, nor heard of anyone else having one fail from any amount of submersion. So I keep mine on the shoulder strap of my PFD, ready for instant use without removing it from the mount. I also hold it in place with a light bungee loop (thanks for the tip, Brian) and tether it to the strap with a $3.00 badge reel, just in case.

--David.

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Keith,

Yes, my comment assumed of course that you still had a boat on which to open a day hatch I keep my radio (iCom m88) in my pfd without incident; however, several people including professional coaches claim to always keep them in their day hatch on the grounds that electronics don't fair well in a marine environment. I always found that to be a weak argument since I believe that radios are more likely to fail due to a manufacturing defect (which you'll discover quite soon) rather than constant exposure presuming they are properly cared for (rinsing, etc.)

[djlewis]

>several people

>including professional coaches claim to always keep them in

>their day hatch on the grounds that electronics don't fair

>well in a marine environment. I always found that to be a

>weak argument since I believe that radios are more likely to

>fail due to a manufacturing defect (which you'll discover

>quite soon) rather than constant exposure presuming they are

>properly cared for (rinsing, etc.)

I've only (? ;-)) owned two submersible VHF radios, but here is what I believe is the fairly definitive story about their submersability.

The Standard Horizon HX-460 (http://tinyurl.com/nzto3) has repeatedly failed in several ways because of submersion, for a number of NSPNers. It's a POS in my opinion and that of others. You can search NSPN threads for details. Also, someone disassembled one once and found that the water-proofing was not properly engineered. I guess you could call all that manufacturing defects.

In contrast, as I said, I've never heard of the ICOM M88 failing for any reason, let alone submersion. Mine has spent literally hours in the water and is fine. (http://tinyurl.com/lu6au)

So, take your pick -- I've made mine. But if someone claims that no VHF will fare well exposed to a marine environment, they are quite arguably wrong.

--David.

[RogerPollock]

I am generally the type to buy the cheaper thing thinking, “well, I’ll spend 'X' amount of dollars now ‘just to get me into it’ and I’ll upgrade later if needed.” And this is a philosophy which has failed me repeatedly when applied to kayaking. The cheaper things fail or wear out fast, and I end up paying twice (and nobody’s made of money).

So, this weekend as I stood shifting from foot to foot in West Marine, fretting and wringing my hands, considering the radios, I recalled my past experiences and just laid out the dough for the M88. No free lunch. And considering it might save your skin, or somebody else’s, better to go top shelf . . .

[JohnHuth]

Just out of curiosity - do you know what the long distance swell from the Atlantic was during that time?

You had NNE winds at 15 and an outgoing current - right?

[Brian Nystrom]

Keith and John's experience highlights the fact that when you need a radio, it MUST be right at hand. IMO, there is no valid argument for keeping a radio in and inaccessible location. I also feel very strongly that you MUST be able to operate the radio with ONE hand, as you need to hold onto your paddle (or boat) with the other. That's why I keep mine mounted on the shoulder strap of my PFD. Additionally, it puts it close to my ear, so I can hear it better over the sounds of wind and water.

If you haven't seen them already, I have pics of the mounting system I use in my Kayak Gear album on Webshots at:

http://community.webshots.com/user/brian_nystrom-reg

This system has been tested during rescues in rough water, surfing, etc. and has never let me down. BTW, ignore the HX-460 in the photos. I agree with David that it's worthless as a kayaker's radio. The one in the photos failed 5 times and is currently sitting in a box in pieces.

[Bill Gwynn]

Hi John,

I looked back at the data from gomoos and found that on 6/4/06 at 11am, the Mass Bay (A) buoy reported 8 feet at 6.2 seconds, wind - NNE at 21.4 Knots. The Western Maine shelf buoy was reporting 8 feet at 6.9 seconds, wind, N at 16.7 Knots. Interestingly, Cashes Ledge buoy was reporting 6.9 feet at 7 seconds, and wind was only 5.8 Knots, this was definetly a coastal storm, wind and waves were larger closer to shore.

They were pretty much at full ebb when they swam.

[JohnHuth]

OK, thanks. I did a little calculation. If the 8 ft. wave report was in "deep" water, in "shallow" water (say, 10 ft. depth), the height would be more like 12 ft. (that's because the wave velocity slows down in shallow water and wave heights increase accordingly).

If this is coupled with an outgoing current, you'd end up with very tall, very steep waves.

I'm also wondering whether the location played a role - with NNE winds and a pretty long fetch, there may have been a lot of cross-wash with swells from the Atlantic banging into the wind-driven waves.

Put it all together, and it sounds like very very difficult conditions.

(in hindsight, mind you!...)

[Nick Schade]

It has been my experience that the breakers you see near shore are typically not as big as the swells that are measured by the off-shore buoys. While a swell will stack up higher when it hits shallow water, there is a lot of shallow water between the buoys and the beach. Much of the energy has been lost before they get close to shore.

[JohnHuth]

Right - I was thinking about the front (seaward portion) of the bar, when they first start to hump up. It was a simple calculation - not a thorough analysis.