bilge pumps

[Guest guest]

Originally, I was planning to put a foot pump in my boat for hands-free emptying of the cockpit. First I noticed that I would have to bring a hose to behind the seat to get most of the water, and then I found out that I would lose a lot of storage space. I abandoned that idea.

Then I started thinking about an electric bilge pump. I think that I have resolved all of my original concerns about an electric system, however a friend tells me that I don't need either if I have a reliable roll. Do other experienced paddlers agree?

[Guest guest]

Yes Wendy. Anytime Peter Pan gives you advice, take it - from peanut butter to boats, that Peter certainly knows his way around.

You a little bored there, sparky?

[Guest guest]

Wendy,

Best to have a backup, even a backup to another backup. If you have a bombproof roll, you may still need to pump someone else out or help speed it along. That would call for a hand pump or an electric pump. The foot pump would be entirely yours.

sing

[Guest guest]

Most paddlers, (especially womanly paddlers, Wendy) end up moving the bulkhead toward the seat in order to accomodate a foot pump. Thus the storage area in the front hatch is increased. There be a few paddlers who would store a collapsed kayak cart or something else in the cockpit, but most of us NSPNers would avoid it like the plague, (entrapment hazard).

Adding a foot pump or permanent electric pump does add non removeable weight to the boat. Hmmmm. I confess sometimes I think a foot pump and a hand pump clipped to the back of my boat (with a fastex buckle tied around a deck fitting) might be a good thing. As it is you will find me with a single hand puump.

Good luck and good paddling to you!

[Brian Nystrom]

I would never think of a reliable roll as a substitute for a bilge pump. While the former can reduce the need for the latter, it can never eliminate it. There are plenty of ways to get water in your cockpit other than a wet exit (rough water launching comes to mind). When you need a pump, you NEED a pump. Unless, that is, you can figure out a way to empty your cockpit by rolling.

The advantage of a foot and electric pumps is that you have both hands free to use the paddle for locomotion or bracing while pumping out the cockpit. It strikes me that although skilled paddlers may not need a pump often, they're probably more likely to be in serious conditions when they do need one, making a hands-free pump even more desirable. If I paddled solo, I would consider it a necessity.

[Guest guest]

I didn't mean not having a pump at all, I meant not bothering to purchase and install a hands-free system.

The launching issue is a good one. Unless I can do a seal launch, I launch with my sprayskirt off and put it on after I get past the break line. My arms are just too short to knuckle my way down the beach.

The paddling alone is another good point.

[donperry]

There was a thread a while back about modifying an Atwood WaterBuster for use in kayaks. It seemed like a good plan for hands-free water expulsion with or without the spray skirt in place. I bought one but pigeonholed the installation project for the winter months. Now that winter is upon us, installing the electric pump is still a low priority project.

I’m skeptical about the real utility of handheld bilge pumps. The spray skirt has to be off and two hands are required to operate the pump. For larger cockpits a simple bailing container is faster and leaves one arm free to brace the unstable kayak. A good sponge or hand towel can remove the last of it. The sponge and container are useful throughout any trip while the handheld pump just seems to take up space. I think people buy them because they are there 'for sale' along with a false sense of security.

The spray skirt has to be removed to switch the WaterBuster on & off even if it is plumbed to discharge with the spray skirt in place. A sponge would still be needed for the remaining water. Clearly, having both arms free to paddle is better than an awkward one-arm & shoulder brace. The portable electric pump could make a big difference in bailing out someone else’s boat if they were incapacitated or needed both hands free to manage the waves.

[Brian Nystrom]

Handheld pumps are quite useful, but mainly when you've got assistance to steady the boat, so your full attention and effort can be directed toward pumping. For solo paddling, I can imagine many situations where you simply wouldn't be able to use one effectively. In such situations, bailing wouldn't be much of an improvement. Being able to seal the cockpit and maintain two hands on the paddle would be a real boon.

Well, I've be toying with the idea of modifying the Chimp pump I removed from my Pintail for foot use, then re-installing it. Perhaps it's time to give it a shot.

[Guest guest]

>Most paddlers, (especially womanly paddlers, Wendy) end up

>moving the bulkhead toward the seat in order to accomodate a

>foot pump. Thus the storage area in the front hatch is

>increased.

Yeah, but I was already planning on moving the bulkhead. The footpump was a secondary issue. The bulkhead needs to be 3-4 inches closer to the bow to fit a footpump in the optimum location.

[Jed]

Wendy,

Several years ago (when ordering the last kayak I would ever need) I was warned repeatedly against the expense, weight and complexity of a bulkhead-mounted foot pump. I was asked to consider how often I would need a hands-free pumping solution compared to how often I would have to carry my boat, since the weight of the pump would be felt each and every time I lifted the boat. The were additional warnings about a built-in pump not eliminating the need for a hand pump and then of course the cost of the pump itself as well as the way the pump defines the bulkhead placement. For those times when I was convinced I needed a hands-free option, I was advised that I should not be paddling alone in such conditions.

The above warnings came from the guy that was selling me the boat and stood to make a profit on the sale of this pump! This is a man who has forgotten more about paddling than I may ever know and yet I stuck to my guns and ordered the foot-pump. At the time I had delusions of paddling solo in epic winter gales. While I never expected to need the pump, on those rare occasions when it would be needed a hands-free option would be ideal.

Bottom-line, I did order the boat with the pump, but since I never really had a need for the pump I never bothered to set-it so it would work correctly. Even when I needed a hands-free option (once in 5+ years of paddling), the pump I used was a hand-pump wedged between my thigh and the side of the boat (with the spray skirt on, save for the lee-side of the cockpit) and I alternated between pumping with one hand and bracing with two hands. Now by my calculations, during those 2.5 years that I owned that boat, I have lifted/carried that boat more than a 1000 times, needed a hands-free option exactly once and even then found a way to pump out my boat with a hand pump. I eventually sold that boat, never having used the foot-pump in anger. Of the next 3 boats that I bought (each the last I would ever need), none of them was fitted with any built-in pump, nor would I order a boat with such an option in the future.

Consider for a moment that the ability to balance / paddle a swamped boat reduces the need for a hands-free pumping option. Now ask yourself how many "expert" paddlers bother with built-in pumps. Now I'm no expert and I've learned most of what I know the hard way so if you learn the same hard way by all means get the foot-pump. But if you are the type to learn from other's mistakes, then talk to some people who have the real-world experience to know what their talking about and consider all sides of the argument.

BTW, the guy who bought my "ultimate" boat (18 months ago) hasn't bothered to fix the foot-pump either.

Cheers and good luck!

Jed

"The ability to defend an opinion with absolute certainty . . .

. . . is inversely proportional to one's actual experience."

>Originally, I was planning to put a foot pump in my boat for

>hands-free emptying of the cockpit. First I noticed that I

>would have to bring a hose to behind the seat to get most of

>the water, and then I found out that I would lose a lot of

>storage space. I abandoned that idea.

>

>Then I started thinking about an electric bilge pump. I

>think that I have resolved all of my original concerns about

>an electric system, however a friend tells me that I don't

>need either if I have a reliable roll. Do other experienced

>paddlers agree?

[djlewis]

Apart from what you need for yourself in the way of a bilge pump, I think that carrying a small electric pump can make a difference when helping others.

When rescuing someone who is injured or finds normal "scrambling" rescues a problem (like paddlers with certain handicaps), we sometimes have a choice between a swamped boat rescue (like a scoop) and a drained boat rescue (like a T). The scoop may be a lot easier for the rescuee, but presents the extra problem of pumping out their boat afterwards.

Having a small, portable electric pump on hand changes the equation. You can very quickly start the pump on their cockpit floor, snake the hose over the coaming, secure their spray skirt, and the boat will essentially pump itself -- as fast the fastest hand-pumper -- while they paddle. So, swamped boat rescues become more attractive.

Of course, one might say that such a paddler should not be in conditions where hand pumping is a problem -- others can always raft up with them and do it, maybe two pumping at a time. So, this may just be a convenience solution. But I am intrigued by the fact that many MIKCo instructors carry WaterBuster pumps and apparently use them occasionally. Maybe Jed can shed some light on that.

For myself, my grand plan is to secure a WaterBuster behind my seat, attached with a velcro or fastex strap to the rear bulkhead in a position that will work to pump my own boat. Then, to use it for someone else, I just reach around behind, release the strap, and voila. I've simulated both turning on the pump and removing it from behind my seat, and it seems pretty easy. This may not work in boats with sloped rear bulkheads. (Of course, I haven't even found the occasion to replace my $^$#@!# backband, so this may be pie in the sky.)

--David.

[jeffcasey]

Many good arguments presented here, and in previous threads. I have no experience with powered pumps, but I can't ***imagine*** depending on a powered system, or a manual one with complicated moving parts, for essential safety. I am nervous enough depending on complicated technology in my cockpit for safety (a VHF radio and a hand-stroked bilge pump).

Jed's arguments about carrying around the dead weight for rare instances of extra safety are compelling.

David's arguments about instructors using pumps is perhaps missing the point -- instructors must deal with a lot more pumping from practice rescues than us mortals need for safety purposes....so the powered pumps become a convenience (analogy -- I can pump my bicycle tires with a hand pump, but the guys who work in bike shops use compressors).

[Guest guest]

Has anyone considered a deck mounted pump. It allows you to pump out the cockpit with the sprayskirt in place and you can always let go of the handle to brace. It doesn't interfere with storage space like a foot pump. Imho it is ideal for touring.

I have ordered a 'touring' kayak and have ordered it with a deck pump for the above reasons. When I order a play kayak I will order it with the foot pump because the issue of lost storage space wouldn't be important, and I would want both hands on the paddle in heavy waves or in rock gardens.

I would also carry a hand pump in case of problems, or to help someone else.

I consider that the foot pump and the deck pump are the safest systems. If the conditions are bad enough that I have to wet exit, then I want to be able to close the sprayskirt as soon as possible, and I don't want to have to raise the tunnel of my jacket and insert a hand pump. This would be very awkward in these conditions.

Dan

Aquanaut

Traffic Yellow over White

[Brian Nystrom]

...and IMO, they're not all they're cracked up to be, at least not as they're typically implemented.

They seem great when you jump in a dry boat with one and pump the handle one-handed. No big deal, right? Try it with water in the boat and it's a whole 'nuther story. The pump is much harder to operate and requires two hands if you have to empty any significant amount of water. That puts you right back in the situation of not being able to brace quickly, just as with a hand pump. I also found that the pump handle can be difficult to retrieve from its recess when wearing gloves, though that may vary from boat to boat.

There seems to be a simple remedy for all this and I'm surprized that nobody in the kayak business has done it. Make the handle with a U-shaped end, like an oarlock. That would allow the paddler to drop the paddle shaft into it and pump with both hands still firmly on the paddle (though moving the hands closer together would be advisable, in order to minimize stress on the paddle shaft). Bracing would require nothing more than lifting the paddle free from the handle, which would be largely automatic as the boat rocks on waves. One could still use the handle without a paddle in it, if desired. Who knows, maybe the Brit' boat companies will catch onto this by the 22nd century? ;-)

Another problem with some deck pump installations is that the pickup hose comes straight down from the pump to the hull. While this is great for pumping efficiency, it's also right where you're likely to kick the !#@$ out of it when wet exiting. It's also right where it can prevent the paddler from twisting around from face down to face up during an assisted re-entry. On my Nordkapp, I re-routed the pickup to a better location. It required more tubing, elbows and clamps, but it was out of the way.

In light of all this, foot pumps seem like a better solution.

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I had heard about the problem with the hose, but I am a Mr. fixit anyway, I will customize it as required.

Dan

Aquanaut

Traffic Yellow over White

[Guest guest]

>There seems to be a simple remedy for all this and I'm

>surprized that nobody in the kayak business has done it.

>Make the handle with a U-shaped end, like an oarlock. That

>would allow the paddler to drop the paddle shaft into it and

>pump with both hands still firmly on the paddle (though

>moving the hands closer together would be advisable, in

>order to minimize stress on the paddle shaft). Bracing would

>require nothing more than lifting the paddle free from the

>handle, which would be largely automatic as the boat rocks

>on waves. One could still use the handle without a paddle in

>it, if desired. Who knows, maybe the Brit' boat companies

>will catch onto this by the 22nd century? ;-)

I'm trying to picture this. Would the opening of the 'U' be facing the paddler? If it is facing upwards, I don't see how the paddle pulls up on the pump.

[Brian Nystrom]

Foredeck mounted pumps (as opposed to aft deck mounted Chimp pumps) do not use an up and down motion; they are operated by pushing/pulling the handle back and forth.

[Brian Nystrom]

It's not difficult to change the plumbing. The simplest thing to do is to route the hose staight forward to the bulkhead, then straight down. It won't get all the water out of the boat, but it will get most of it.

I routed mine forward slightly, over to the right gunwale, then back and down to the front of the seat. It was more complex and I'm not sure that it really gained me much.

Either way requires unscrewing the outlet on the pump and rotating it 180 degrees. That switches it from straight down to straight forward (it's a 45 degree angled outlet mounted on a 45 degree angled surface). It's easy to see how it works when you've got it in front of you.