Sat 9/30 Circumnav of Cape Ann

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Planning on this trip this weekend but will depend on time, weather, etc. If interested, post here as want to firm up plans by Fri. am. If no takers, I'll plan to paddle elsewhere.

Circumnav of Cape Ann--the Blackburn route--L3/L4 depending on conditions...

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

UPDATE

Contemplating an 8:30am launch from the Greasy Pole to catch the outgoing tide on the Annisquam and continue the clockwise circumnavigation of Cape Ann. Should be a nice cool day for this type of paddle and the weather so far looks to be fair.

[Gcosloy]

Can't join you-paddling this saturday on the Monomoys trip. However, I've always wondered about this: You plan to launch at 8:30AM which is approx. 3 hours after high tide. Annasquam will be ebbing into Ipswich Bay quite nicely. Won't the Annasquam be dumping into Gloucester harbor as well? And if so how do you plan on paddling against the current through the Canal?

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

The forward stroke

[Bill Gwynn]

The current in the Blynman Canal doesn't exceed 3 knots, except maybe during a proxigean spring tide. Of course if there are lots of power boats stirring it up, it can be challenging. There shouldn't be much traffic, therefore not much of a problem passing through.

[cliffrezac]

I would be interested if I don't have to work Saturday morning except that the last time I showed up to one of Kevin B's sng's I was the only one there. You post at 9:20 am for a 10:30 am on the water sng that you decided not to go. It's an hour and a half drive for me. I got to stand around in a parking lot from 10:15 to a few minutes after 11:00 before deciding to move on. I was dissappointed and quite aggravated. Is this the type of commitment one should expect from folks who post trips on this site? I understand emergency, but unless I'm mistaken (wouldn't be the first time)- "I don't think I'll have time to do the paddle in NBPT today so unfortunately I'll be staying local." - doesn't sound like a last minute emergency.

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Cliff,

SNG's are just that, show and go's They are not formal trips and are opportunities to paddle offered at the whim of the one posting. 99% of the time they happen as scheduled, but sometimes things get in the way, and they don't have to be emergencies. Given the incredibly large number of SNGs I post, I'm not going to worry too much if I miss one or two. It's unfortunate that you had to travel so far to get there, but (1) I don't think I was aware of that and (2) my not being able to make it does not preclude you from paddling on your own.

I would also suggest that since I have not paddled with you before, that you realize that this is a L3/L4 trip as well as 23 miles in distance and take stock of your abilities to complete it.

[Gillian]

Wow, you sound like a blast to paddle with. Really. Can't wait. Please let me know next time you go.

[Gcosloy]

I don't have a dog or a paddle in this fight but I do have a suggestion. When the number of interested parties that post their intention to go is greater than one, other than the instigator;those that show, assuming they number more than one, can paddle on.

When it's down to just the instigator of the S&G and one other member, personal email should be used to verify who is showing before taking a long drive. When there are only two involved no matter how you slice it, it becomes personal.

Last season I instigated almost the same S&G and had to bail at the end. I and the others were in constant communication via email however and no one was disappointed.

[cliffrezac]

Kevin,

I wouldn't have posted a message if I thought I never wanted to paddle with you or others on this site. I'm not trying to start fights or make enemies, nor do I believe you are some horrible hurtful person. I just wanted to point out how it all comes across to some new person when this happens. At the same time, I understand that I'm not making any friends by doing this, but I sometimes have things pointed out to me that I don't necessarily want to hear at the time but may prove useful to me and often therefore others. I understand I'm sticking my neck out here and it's maybe even likely that I gain nothing and possibly lose opportunities to make good paddling friends - but I sincerely hope that's not the case. Trying to answer some points, you posted a response to me at 10:02 pm the night before, and I checked the site first thing in the morning again anyway to check for further updates. There were none by the time I had to leave, but I really didn't expect anything as the last message was at 10:02 the night before. You weren't aware how far the person was traveling is part of the reason that not showing can lead to dissappointment for this new person. If the person wanted to paddle on their own, they probably wouldn't have looked at this site in the first place. They wanted to paddle with the person who wrote show up here if you want to go paddling with someone. Not to say that the ninety-nine previous sng's aren't significant, as I'm sure it is very much appreciated by many, but it's not really something that fully excuses you from dissappointing someone that hundredth time, and it does nothing to affect their dissappointment at the time. I hope this doesn't come across all angry sounding, as I'm not angry, nor was I angry when I posted the first message. I'll be stuck at work until afternoon on Saturday, but hopefully I'll get to paddle with you some other time. Maybe you can smack me with a paddle or something when I'm not looking.

[bob budd]

Cliff, you are not out of line in expressing your feelings. That's how people communicate. Its good to point out to everyone what can happen when you don't show up as previously indicated. Browse the messages on the board, you'll find that now and then people vent their frustrations in a variety of ways.

Kevin also has a point that SNG "leadership" is really "instigatorship" and there is no obligation to contact persons if you bail at the last minute.

I collect last minute contact info from people I know are planning to join me and call if I have to cancel. You can read a phone number to someone else you have reached to put in a place a "phone net" and reduce the time it takes to reach everyone.

[donperry]

The southward current in the canal is no problem. But it buckles into standing waves under the drawbridge. I've paddled uphill under the bridge & I wouldn't waste any energy doing it again, particularly at the beginning of a long trip.

Launch from the high school ramp a few blocks away if you want to avoid the bridge.

[Gillian]

You can also choose to email someone personally by clicking the email icon next to their name. I believe this serves to solve any disputes or hurt feelings off-line unless it's something useful for the entire board membership to read.

[EEL]

>

>Kevin also has a point that SNG "leadership" is really

>"instigatorship" and there is no obligation to contact

>persons if you bail at the last minute.

>

The SNG trip situation this year suggests to me reconsideration of or at least some informal agreement about "ground rules" for SNG trips is in order. I understand NSPN as a club for a variety of understandable reasons believes it important to take a "hands off" approach to SNG trips and, consequently, it will not provide guidelines, etc. I also think Kevin in particular and a few others are to be commended for creating most the group paddling opportunities for club memebers who are not likely to go out on their own or with other paddling pals. So I don't want the following to be taken as carping at either, but as constructive criticism. Since there are no rules, guidelines, etc. for SNG trips at present, it is quite true that people posting SNGs can approach them as they wish.

That said, I believe SNG trips should not be viewed as the result of mere "instigatorship" and that those who post them have no organizational obligations. I believe this especially applies when SNGs start to be announced as trips where skills will be worked on and/or where some of the riskier facets of our sport like surfing and rock gardening are to be the focus. It appears inexperienced folks are seeing these trips as the main if not only pathway to gaining experience on the ocean, "for real", or whatever in many areas and, therefore, SNGs are quite important to them and it is understandable if they get irked when trips are cancelled for no particular reason or on a whim since they, for sound reasons, are not likely to stand on the beach and say, "Well, lets go and do it anyway." when the trip poster does not show up.

For good or ill and out of common courtesy, it seems to me anyone posting a SNG should make a good faith effort to show up at the launch site on time or announce a cancellation sufficiently in advance. On the other side of the coin, those who want to participate should let the poster know if they are going to be there or not as opposed to a vague post like "Sounds great and hope to be there if I cut the grass in time."

I don't know if more should be asked or expected on either side of the coin for SNGs. As SNGs drift further from the model of someone saying I'm going out to X or W and others are welcome to join to I'm posting a trip which will be for skills, or surfing or playing in rocks and those who want to try it out are welcome, it deserves some thought.

For the former style of SNG, I would evalutate the route/area by studying a chart, I would check weather and conditions, and then decide if I could (not should, but could) do the trip by myself. If yes, then I go feeling comfortable that I can be an active participant on the trip. IMHO, anyone going on a SNG should do the same and the poster should be entitled to assume the others have done so. In the latter style of trip, I might be more tempted to forego that analysis and rely upon others in order to gain experience. I think that is where the current SNG model starts to get questionable.

Finally, I think there should be a slightly more formal process for SNGs that assures adequate communication between participants and reasonable expectations as well which in turn means a poster of a SNG has some minimal responsibilites for getting the boats off the beach with the paddlers having an adequate understanding the trip to be able to make an informed decision to launch. Beyond that, everyone is utlimately responsible for themselves even if everyone will do what they can to aid others and accept the responsibility to help make responsible group decisions along the way.

Ed Lawson

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Since no takers as of this morning, I'll paddle solo or elsewhere....

[Gillian]

Ed, thanks for your thoughtful comments, Bob and Gene you too . . . I think you raise some interesting points about SNG's . . . we don't have as many formal club trips anymore for a variety of reasons so the SNG format seems to have become the primary method for getting out there and paddling. I think the issue seems to be the fine line of offering to lead SNG's vs. life that sometimes gets in the way and changes the plans. I like Bob and Gene's suggestion for exchanging phone numbers especially if someone is driving far or is a newer paddler who might not go out on their own. I think the toughest question is whether we want to start asking SNG organizers to start being more regulatory about the SNG - the last thing I would want to do is to discourage someone who posts SNG's to start re-thinking their decision because they're now under the kind of obligation that a formal Trip Leader is. It's an intersting situation to consider and the trick is to find a balance between encouraging people to get out their and paddle through holding SNG's without surrounding that person with the formality we see with Club Trips.

[RogerPollock]

Actually, this can't be the first time over the years such a thing has happened . . . Can see a definite benifit to a public airing - at least now that the meatball's been thrown . . .

[Gillian]

mmmmmmmmmmm . . . . . meatballs . . . .

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Roger,

Yes, the SNG format should be analyzed, including short notice cancellation; however, you DON'T do so with:

From cliffrezac's post: "Is this the type of commitment one should expect from folks who post trips on this site? I understand emergency, but unless I'm mistaken (wouldn't be the first time)- "I don't think I'll have time to do the paddle in NBPT today so unfortunately I'll be staying local." - doesn't sound like a last minute emergency."

One missed SNG and now committment to paddling is called in to question?! If you have a personal grievance, you contact the person privately as Gilly indicated, and then post a general question in the General Forum.

[Pintail]

Beckers,

If only you'd paddle Salem Sound on and make your circumnavigation on Sunday, I'd gladly come with you.

By the way (addressing someone else, whoever it was), the Blynman cut at full tidal flow is great fun: it's one local place where you find some standing waves to play in -- exagerated by any fishing boat that opens its throttles to accelerate against the tide!

Can you change your plans around, KB?

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

I've decided to paddle up north on Sat., so Sun. might be possible. I'll give you a call either tonight or tomorrow a.m. to see if we can set things up.

[bob budd]

I agree that Cliff's could have chosen a different set of words to express his sentiment. I wouldn't take it as personal Kevin. I think its important that his point be heard and discussed for the benefit both of instigators and instigatees.

[Gcosloy]

I paddle regularly with someone during the weekdays. He or I will usually send emails to establish launch location, time, etc. Whenever there is a question regarding commitment, since there is usually just the two of us, the telephone is used. I think the S&G protocalls should be similar to receiving a dinner invitation to someones home: RSVP is the rule and no shows without communicating ones change of plans is not really nice. On the other hand, while the invitation may be withdrawn, it needs to be for a credible, understandable reason.

I don't think the S&G format should be so loose that neither the instigator nor those that RSVP feel any real commitment to show. Some of the more wonderful paddles I've been on this year were S&G's. There was a great one last month leaving Conomo Point going out to the back side tip of Cranes and wending our way back via the "Snake River". There was no way I could have found this route were it not for experienced locals like Walter and others. My point is that it would be a shame if NSPN S&G's got the reputation of becoming "You show and take your chance!"

[Deb Millar]

Not to add any fuel to the fire (or sauce for meatball hurling), but we often show up for SNGs without posting publicly and sometimes without any private response to the "instigator". I don't know how many others do this, but I do know, having been pleasantly surprised by some of our fellow unexpected attendees, that we aren't the only ones.

While I understand one's frustration at driving a distance only to find no one there to paddle with -- and one's hesitation at paddling by one's self (my motto is: "go to sea in groups of three" btw (although I frequently make do in a group of two), but then I'm known for my slavish devotion to the tenets of the BCU (let's not go there.)and am not prone to see the wonders of solo paddling (let's not go there, either. I don't, other's might and it's a personal choice...) -- a SnG is just that: you show, you go or you might not, depending on your comfort level or if you have any partners to paddle with. I don't hold the "instigator" responsible if the trip falls through as that seems to be against the whole theory of SNG.

Perhaps the best system is to either post publically or privately to the organizer for communication purposes, which Kevin has been requesting people do, and if you don't, then you take your chances as to anyone being there at the launch site -- no blame attached to anyone. I also feel that he is doing "the right thing" by posting trip levels as defined by NSPN. This is only fair to both those paddling and those deciding whether or not they are up for the potential conditions, which, as we all know, can change and often do.

Gas can put away, sauce put back in the Barilla jar....

Deb M

[gyork]

I'm in agreement with Gene and Ed's sentiments. Rather than be referred to as a "leader" or "instigator", I'd suggest that the poster of a SNG be considered a "host" or "facillitator". As a poster of a SNG, I will do my best to accomodate others who have joined me. A posted SNG might read as folows: Subject Line-"SNG Oct 13, Casco Bay(Cousin's Island), 10AM"

Message Line-"Arrive 9:30 for 10 am departure from Sandy Beach in Yarmouth. CounterCW Great Chebeague, lunch at Bangs Island, return to Sandy Beach. HT-12N; LT-6AM. L3,~10nm. Reply to me via E"

Those who respond will let me know they will be there, or will have questions about the trip. I'll obtain contact info from everyone, including work/home phone, E, and cell number. I'll ask those who have signed up to let me know if they are NOT coming by ____am the day of the trip by calling my cell/home. I'll let all the participants know that my cell will be on until posted launch time, so that they can contact me if they are late/not coming. If they are not present and have not contacted me, I'll probably try calling their cell/home. I certainly won't be a/the leader, but staying close to the slower boats in the group. At the end of the day of paddling I'll usually be the last to leave.

Gary