And So It Begins

[RogerPollock]

>in the meantime, if it doesn't violate club by laws amend the calendar section so that it isn't JUST official trips...that way you have something on the board to generate interest - or what about setting up a private trips calendar that members can access so that they can post their trips and there will BE SOMETHING to generate interest to the casual lurker/dropper in? set it up side by side in the calendar section?>

I mean, DUH!! A private trip calendar! This is such a hugely simple, in your face, obvious solution to some complicated problems . . . it's beautiful. Is this the first time this has ever been suggested?

Nancy further down the thread says, >Some of us cannot go on a (private) trip planned at the last minute.>

Would the board consider doing this?

[jeffcasey]

private trip calendar:

I'm on board with that. Nice idea.

renaming "private" trips:

I know the reasons we went this route, but it wouldn't hurt for the board to revisit this and give it a gentler name as well.

[bob budd]

>I am a new member and have not had the opportunity to paddle

>with any of you, yet. I am not really sure what the

>distinction is between an "official club trip" and a

>"private trip" other than the official trip has a trained

>(certified?) leader and is planned ahead of time.

An official trip assumes a "trip leader" is leading the trip. Said leader was trained using the club curriculum or otherwise determined to be competent to lead such a trip. The leader has a pittance of forms to fill out, is expected to screen candidates based upon their honest appraisal of their abilities, choose a route with alternatives for predictable circumstances, etc.

>If that is correct, then is the "leader" of the private trip at some

>risk (not covered by ACA insurance)?

This is the crux of the debate on training. The insurance is intended to cover the leader, but civil litigation is the business of greys.

> The advantage of an

>"official trip" for me would be that it is planned ahead of

>time. Some of us cannot go on a (private) trip planned at

>the last minute. Couldn't we get around that by having some

>"private trips" that are planned ahead of time?

"Private trips" are sometimes planned weeks or even months in advance. See Ed Lawson's thread for instance. Most day trips aren't planned too far in advance because we try to judge the prevailing conditions and make midweek decisions regarding conditions, etc. I would not assume that a "private trip" has less planning. Instead, it is up to the discretion of all participants in a "private trip" what they do if you aren't comfortable going where they plan to go. This is at the heart of the common adventure model, each person being responsible for themselves. Since the participants are also human beings, they are likely to make modifications to their expectations for new paddlers, at least for one or two trips.

>The term "private trip" may put some people off. If you do

>not know people in the club, the use of the word "private"

>may be intimidating.

We needed to come up with a name. I suppose they could try to think of another.

>As far as your view of people wanting to be on a trip with a

>competent leader, I care more about the capabilities of the

>people in the group as a whole and hope that they would be

>honest about their level of proficiency when choosing a

>"rated" trip. I do not see "private trips" with ratings.

>Why not?

"Private trip" postings are at the discretion of the poster. I try to explain what we are doing and where are going. I think its up to the paddler to do the research to find out if they belong. Of course, they can send me a message if they wish using the e-mail icon and I will answer their questions. Others are likely to do the same. As far as planning, we are often paddling in known waters and thus have a knowledge of alternatives for the unexpected.

>-Nancy

What does everyone know you as?

[RogerPollock]

>Most day trips aren't planned too far in advance because we try to judge the prevailing conditions and make midweek decisions regarding conditions, etc.

True.

And if there were a "private trip" calendar, one could even post a standard day trip, say, a month in advance, giving people a much longer look at it and more time to reserve space on their own calendars and look forward. I think this is a big advantage of the "official trip". Of course, if conditions were a blow out, you call if off and post something the night before. If conitions are maringal, it's each individuals call.

Be cool to be able to look a month view, see what's posted, be able to click on a link to the thread on the message board and see who's signed up, and what being discussed about the trip.

Given what Nancy says, and I bet she speaks for a good silent majority, it would be an interesting experiment, you know, in the interest of science and stuff.

[Brian Nystrom]

It was one of the things that was very clearly spelled out by the risk/liability consultants we hired. If you put all the trips on the same calendar, people will assume that they are all club sponsored or at least tacitly endorsed by the club, regardless of anything else you say about them. Legally, it puts you at the mercy of any unqualified person that calls a trip, does something stupid and gets someone hurt. The term "Private Trip" was what they recommended. Keeping them off the calendar and putting them in a separate forum was what they recommended. If the club members or the Board don't think that's important, that's fine, but if that's the case, why are we paying for insurance?

[bob budd]

You seem to have missed the part about it being a separate calendar.

If the club takes further steps toward supporting "Private Trips" they may assume more liability for the outcome of these trips. Setting up a separate calendar might appear to be such a step. Otherwise I think if it makes it easier for people to participate except as follows.

As private trips are primarily set up and executed in a short time frame the calendar may not help alot. Those who post a private trip also might not bother to post it on a calendar so the efficacy of the practice may be limited. The content of the post is largely the discretion of the paddler who posts it so putting additional demands upon these paddlers might mean they won't bother to post their trip at all.

If nothing does change those interested in a private trip can read the thread and follow a few simple steps to participate as others do today. In most cases the e-mail icon allows a participant to privately contact the person who posted. One can post a public question as a reply to the post.

[RogerPollock]

>As private trips are primarily set up and executed in a short time frame the calendar may not help alot.

Might not. Or it just might. What's the harm in finding out? Unless it requires massive capital, time, and efofrt?

>Those who post a private trip also might not bother to post it on a calendar so the efficacy of the practice may be limited.

This is the 21st century. This is a cyber based club. There must be some easy and inexpensive mechanism to automatically link the two together.

>The content of the post is largely the discretion of the paddler who posts it so putting additional demands upon these paddlers might mean they won't bother to post their trip at all.

See reply 1 & 2.

[Nancy Hill]

Roger said:

"And if there were a "private trip" calendar, one could even post a standard day trip, say, a month in advance, giving people a much longer look at it and more time to reserve space on their own calendars and look forward. I think this is a big advantage of the "official trip". Of course, if conditions were a blow out, you call if off and post something the night before. If conditions are marginal, it's each individuals call."

That is a great idea. Much easier to look at a calender than try to find an old message. If I knew of something ahead of time that interested me, I would make sure I did not make other plans for that/those day(s). It is also nice, as Roger says, to have something to look forward to.

-Nancy

[Brian Nystrom]

Free forum software, such as the package we use, is not as flexible or full-featured as we might like, and certain things just aren't supported. That's why the forum is as it is. There are several changes that have been discussed over the years, but the software doesn't support them. Considering what it costs, it's a great product, but as they say, "beggars can't be choosers".

If we want to pay for forum software, we might be able to find something more flexible, but then it becomes an issue of time for the Webmaster to configure it and integrate it into the site. It's not just a matter of pushing a few buttons. The complex, highly-integrated forums that you find on commercial sites are supported by paid IT personnel that cost many times the annual income of the NSPN.

My new employer, Ektron (www.ektron.com), sell a package that would allows us to have all the Message Boards, Blogs, Calendars and Wikis that we could possibly want, plus a LOT more, but it would be pointless for the club to drop $5K or more on CMS software for a site this size.

[djlewis]

>Free forum software, such as the package we use, is not as

>flexible or full-featured as we might like, and certain

>things just aren't supported. That's why the forum is as it

>is. There are several changes that have been discussed over

>the years, but the software doesn't support them.

>Considering what it costs, it's a great product, but as they

>say, "beggars can't be choosers".

Our forum software is an older version. It's long since been totally rewritten, and the new version is also free...

http://www.dcscripts.com/

My understanding is that the barriers to change are the technical effort needed to install and configure it and to convert all our old stuff, plus probably the membership's resistance to any kind of change other than the latest NDK model ;-)))

Anyway, free is a nice ideological statement, but doesn't really make much practical sense (in the low $100s range) when you consider how much time and energy goes into installing, configuring and maintaining the software over the years. In fact, when things go wrong, we have had had to pay the DCForum author to help fix it, so it really hasn't truly been free.

But all in all, DCForum/DCScripts is decent package, despite being free. It's a ton better for our needs than, say PHPBB, which is the widespread low-end/free solution. I agree with Brian that it doesn't make sense to spend $1000s for a professional package.

--David.

[RogerPollock]

I don't have the technical knowledge to debate what you're saying or offer alternative. There may be somebody out there who does. Again, I think if there's a will there's a way . . .

[Brian Nystrom]

...won't make up for lack of built-in capability. A Pinto (I'm dating myself) will never be a Ferrari.

We have very capable volunteers maintaining the site, but they also have to find time for little things like making a living, spending time with their loved ones and paddling their kayaks. Major site re-designs and software deployments are not trivial matters. Being a webmaster is also one of those thankless, behind the scenes jobs like keeping the electricity on and the water flowing. People expects things to magically work exactly the way they want to, but don't understand what's involved in making that happen. Demanding too much of volunteers leads to burnout. If the club really wants to do a site re-design or forum software upgrade, we should consider compensating those involved for their work.

[alcoons]

>The clubs membership has dropped dramatically since 2003. I

>recently shared some of these statistics with the board and

>I know they are working very hard to correct the issues that

>have caused the decline. Absolutely the #1 reason is lack of

>"official" trips by the club. Much of the membership has the

>expectation that in participating in such trips, they are

>being led by a competent leader who has had some training.

>

I would suggest that an equal reason for dissatisfaction is the lack of Show & Goes/Private Trips. When I first joined the club a few years ago, I could go on either an "Official Trip" or a "Show and Go" every weekend during July-September. Now there are few "Show and Goes". I have found that the only way I can plan to paddle during many of the times when I am free is to try to post one myself.

I sure would like to go to more new places with new people (Al Coons is boring and tends to go to places he knows) and push my limits more often (which I cannot do safely as the "unofficial leader" of a "Show and Go". Yes there is some responsibility when you post a "Show and GO").

I agree with others that the title "Private Trips" is misleading. Since these trips are not part of the mainstream messages or the calendar, many paddlers who would like to join one simple do not see them posted.

I love this club. I appreciate what all those who take leadership positions try to do and how so many of you have helped me. However, my sense is we need to strip off the extra layers and get back to paddling first of all. We will loose some wonderful things, but we are trying to be too much and the result is a loss of what brings us together the most: paddling.

Note: I believe many of those who are the most active posters here are experienced kayakers who have a group they can often paddle with...often from the club...and often without having an official or private trip. Many of them give a great deal of time to the club and o others. However, the group that most needs more trips of each kind are those we are unlikely to hear from here.

Al Coons

Eddyline Nighthawk

Red/White

[RogerPollock]

>I would suggest that an equal reason for dissatisfaction is the lack of Show & Goes/Private Trips.

Beg to gently differ a little there, Al. Review a month's worth of S&G's, and there's a quite a lot, not even considering it's winter. Actually, I think there are far more than when I first joined. Granted it's some of the same people posting, but who cares? They're paddling. Take advantage. Go with.

>I sure would like to go to more new places with new people (Al Coons is boring and tends to go to places he knows) and push my limits more often . . .

The way the club's set up now, S&G's are the place to push it, and we do. We surf, rock-hop, play in current. Come along. You can push it as much or as little or as gently as you like. So far, anyway, we've always come back unscathed, and certainly we don't indend otherwise.

>Note: I believe many of those who are the most active posters here are experienced kayakers who have a group they can often paddle with...often from the club...and often without having an official or private trip. Many of them give a great deal of time to the club and o others. However, the group that most needs more trips of each kind are those we are unlikely to hear from here.

It's an unfortunate fact that many of the experienced kayakers do their paddling without making it available to the public. There's a lot others could learn from them. They have their reasons though, and it's their choice, I guess. Of course, our reasons and our choices say a lot about us, but . . . There are two of us, anyway, who've posted, say, 80% of our trips together, sadly to find, often, that few if any come along. Maybe it's us. Maybe we're uglier than we realize. Maybe the calendar idea whould help?

Come along. We want to meet and paddle with new people, too.