Lake Sessions -- what would you like? (esp less experienced paddlers)

[djlewis]

We're noticing fewer beginners and not-particularly-experienced paddlers coming to the Mystic Lake Sessions. I'm not sure why, but on the theory that it's at least partly that we are not serving their needs, let me...

(a) ask for feedback -- what would you like to see at a weekday evening lake practice session (all levels, actually, not just beginners)?

( propose a connected series of classes in sea kayaking basics, assuming there is sufficient interest (indicated by posting here or e-mailing me at djlewis-at-triadic-dot-com). These would be during the regular Tuesday evening sessions at Mystic.

--David

[kevinfre]

I'm new and have been to a couple of Mystic sessions but probably won't go to many more just because it's a 1 hour drive from my office. Given that, the thing I'd obviously love to see would be a practice session in the Nashua-Lowell-Methuen area (I live in Andover, work in Nashua). However, Cathy Foley has mentioned that she scouted lakes in that area without any luck, and I wouldn't want to draw off attendance from the Great Pond sessions that she does have going. Unfortunately, Great Pond isn't any more convenient for me than Mystic. Maybe I should just move ;-)

Assuming that I do somehow make it to more practice sessions, the things I'd want to spend the most time on are basic strokes and rescues. I especially need to improve my reverse stroke, since I always drift to the left.

My $.02.

Kevin Fredette

Red Current Designs Sirocco

[subaruguru]

Hi David,

Well last week's Karen & Bob coincident rolling class surely drained most of us away, and left me disappointed in my lack of success, too.

I'd like to learn to roll this month (sweep or c-c...whichever works!) and maybe scull for support (I'm always amazed at your ability therein), and am available to help newbies with rescues, basic strokes, etc.

See ya tomorrow.

[Gillian]

Ernie, Kevin and I are most likely going to make it tomorrow too - I'm working on my roll and I know Kevin is working on sculling for support so maybe we can all give each other a hand with that tomorrow

[EEL]

>We're noticing fewer beginners and

>not-particularly-experienced paddlers coming to the Mystic

>Lake Sessions.

I might just be that there are fewer. I've heard the boat market has fallen off quite a bit over the past couple of years.

Seems to me that a mix of events are needed for beginners to maintain interest. Lake practice/skill sessions are obviously invaluable and members of the club do yoeman duty helping there. However, it seems to me there also needs to be trips at which beginners would feel reasonably at ease so that they can put what they have learned to practice so to speak. This assumes people buy boats to go out and do things as opposed to practice skills on a pond. While the number of SNG trips this year has been high and varied, I suspect new members might be reluctant to go on them as they may be unsure of their ability to do the trip, etc. Perhaps they need to be encourgaed they can indeed go on some of the SNGs.

As a beginner, that is how see/saw it.

Since I live far away and have a lake in my backyard so to speak, I'll never go to a weeknight sessions, but sounds to me you are doing what I would like to do if I did. I trust some time is spend just playing in the boats and taking time to experiment with strokes as opposed to working on rolling and rescues.

Ed Lawson

[Gillian]

"However, it seems to me there also needs to be trips at which beginners would feel reasonably at ease so that they can put what they have learned to practice so to speak."

Definitely agree . . . there have been a couple level 2 trips but I even noticed on the Brackenbury Cove trip, it was all folks who have been in the club for awhile. Kevin and I have also done a couple level 2 SNG's around the Salem area but haven't really met any new paddlers . . . . if you new guys are out there, anything you need to get on the water we'll help!!!!!!

[EEL]

> if you

>new guys are out there, anything you need to get on the

>water we'll help!!!!!!

Like lead them through rocks before, during and after surges?

Seriously, there have been two SNG trips out of Odiorne in Portsmouth and down the coast to Rye harbor. I assume that is a L3 trip, but it is only 10NM or so and the condx on each have been benign. Assuming folks have a decent boat for the ocean, would these have been fine for beginners with some skills developed at the lakes session? I suspect so in retrospect and certainly the usual suspects at these SNGs includes experienced folks who could help them out of problems.

I wonder if new paddlers are avoiding trips because SNGs are often unrated and/or they think an L3 trip is going to be too difficult and/or have an exagerated concept of what an L3 trip is like. I understand an L3 trip could be difficult, but that is not a given simply because a trip is listed as L3. For example, this Sunday condx while going around Gerrish were basically akin to being on a lake, but it is a L3 trip for reasons other than anticipated condx. A review of buoy info would enable people to see whether it was reasonable for them.

Then again, I'm irresponsible.

Ed Lawson

[gyork]

Ed, I agree, and therefore am irresponsible too? I think the best way to "get one's paddle wet" is to spend more and more hours on the water, whether it be rivers, ponds, lakes or calm, protected sea. That was my approach when I started, and I joined as many SnGs and calendar trips as I could reasonably do. You're right about the "safety in numbers" concept, and most of the SnGs that I have participated in have been in benign conditions. Perhaps those who list a SnG could encourage, and welcome inquiries from, newcomers in their message.

Gary

[Gillian]

Ha Ha very funny . . . I only force people through rock gardens on their second trip out, not their first But seriously I agree that experience is the only way to do it . . . the first ocean trip from Marblehead to Salem Kevin took me on a few months ago drew more than a few chocie words from me But going on the SNG's in a group of experience paddlers turned a white knuckle trip a few months ago into feeling really comfortable out there so maybe on the next SNG we can really encourage newer member to come join the trip.

[bob budd]

This thread has gone well astray of its stated purpose but chaos is what makes the world go around.

A new paddler shouldn't go on a trip assuming numbers alone will take care of their needs. They should know who they will be paddling with and be comfortable paddling with them, know they will be accounted for, etc. In the club there are members with varying levels of awareness, nuff said.

There is no reason why one can't do due dilligence on weather, etc. and stretch your limits. One should also realize that things can and do change rapidly and adjust accordingly. I've been out to the Graves on a day when anyone who could cover the distance would have made it.

[Gillian]

Bob, you make a good point and this thread has gotten off track . . . maybe we should wait to hear more from the newer members about what they need which was David's original post

[djlewis]

>maybe we should wait to hear more from the newer

>members about what they need which was David's original post

Actually, I'm fine with everybody pitching in, though I was hoping to hear from newer and/or would-be members with less paddling experience. But maybe we just don't have many at the moment!

Anyway, what I'm getting from others is a desire for help in rolling and wetback sculling for support (my term for a balance brace type scull for support vs just going down maybe halfway on the sculling paddle, but not all the way into the water).

That's good to know... but it presents a problem. Teaching rolling (and that kind of sculling) is a much different matter than being able to roll yourself. Rolling is such a "quirky" skill -- you either get up or you don't, and if you don't you still feel a million miles away; you can lose a roll; it's very dependent on a number of factors that have to come off exactly right, and a number of others which have some room for variation, etc etc.. It's not like, say, forward stroke or turning, which will get you where you want, even if inelegantly or inefficiently, and you can tune them into perfection at your leisure -- or not.

Bottom line, getting rolling advice from the average paddler on the water -- even a good roller -- is not likely to get someone from non-rolling to rolling, and I've seen it actually mess people up. I myself usually limit my advice to preliminary exercises, like hip snaps off the bow, and cases (like yours) where I spot a distinct flaw that I know something about. I'd like to get better at teaching rolling, so having a guinea pig is nice. But I really worry that I could cause more harm than good, so when I do venture farther, I'm very alert and careful to stop if it is not going well. Learning to teach rolling really should be done with an accomplished mentor.

So, what to do??!!

Anyway, I'm still very willing -- even anxious -- to teach a connected sequence of classes on basic skills: exits and entries, assisted and solo, forward stroke, sweeps, draws, various turns, stopping, etc etc.

Anybody interested?

Or maybe, it could be with somewhat experienced paddlers, and we skip the really elementary stuff. But it never hurts to review that material -- good refresher and you always hear something new to you.

--David

[kevinfre]

>if you

>new guys are out there, anything you need to get on the

>water we'll help!!!!!!

To that end - if anyone wants to post a L2 SNG for 8/5 (this Saturday), 8/19 or 8/20 you can count me in. It would be my first ocean trip. I posted a message on the "Private Trips" forum a few weeks ago describing my current skill level such as it is. Gillian & Kevin responded but our schedules didn't work out - maybe we can try again? The ice cream cone offer from my other message still stands. Any takers?

Kevin Fredette

[ExGMan]

I've been in the paddling game for slightly over a year, so I certainly qualify as pretty new at this. As my skills have developed (or not as the case may be), I find the pieces I've seemed to miss are 1) sculling for support and 2) bracing. I do think that shallow water, i.e. near beaches or in a pool would be ideal for learning and practicing these this types of techniques, because the inevitable dunking would be more easily remedied than repeated practices of t-rescues or paddle float self-rescue. Also, despite reading a few books on these subjects, I know some veteran paddlers could be very helpful regarding basic techniques, pointers, etc...things that are not immediately apparent in reading materials.

Also...as an afterthought, I found a lengthy piece online from Mariner Kayaks (I think). The piece (below) seems to point in the direction I'd like to go regarding practicing skulling and bracing:

"Those who come to sea kayaking by way of river kayaking have an advantage in that whitewater conditions have forced them to develop several reflexive paddle braces. As a result they are not dependent on the inherent stability of the kayak to keep them upright. The high and low brace are the most important physical skills in kayaking. You should work at developing them. The high brace is basically a bracing forward stroke and the low brace is a bracing reverse stroke. Practice in warm shallow water where you won't be afraid to capsize. Throw yourself progressively further and further off balance and use your paddle to recover. Once you've gotten the idea, have a friend or two stand at the end(s) of your kayak and purposely try to capsize you. You should be able to remain upright no matter how hard they try.

Also practice a sculling high brace and alternating between a high and low brace to support you while you lean over to one side. When you've practiced this enough you'll find you can slowly lean your body over until your ear is in the water, then slowly bring yourself back upright. If done quickly you can manage it all with a single sweep. Work on your bracing strokes and you may never have to resort to an Eskimo roll."

Comments certainly solicited...

Thanks -

John

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

One has been posted...

[mariagwyn]

I am posting twice on this topic, as I think the topic is worth an answer, as well as the tangent. So, Topic:

As a beginner/intermediate, I can only echo the sculling, braces, and eventually a role, though I agree that rolling may take more particular work. However, I would like to develop skills that can help me be more adept and surfing through rocks (see comments about this Saturday's SnG). I also want to learn that groovy thing where you move your Kayak sideways without dumping myself over.

I am not as interested in wet-exits as I do that rather well. Rescues might be more helpful, but I would rather focus on figuring out how to stay in my Kayak.

Maria

[mariagwyn]

I am posting twice on this topic, as I think the topic is worth an answer, as well as the tangent. So, the Tangent:

I went on Saturday's SnG at Odiorne, and had a great time. I am probably somewhere between a Lvl 2 and Lvl 3 paddler, depending on endurance and the height of the waves (I have a short boat, gets tiring in heavy conditions). I also enjoyed surfing the rocks, though my boat has a few more scratches, but no holes. I would do it again. However, it was not what I expected.

I am one of those people hesitant to go on an SnG b/c I am not sure the level of the trip, my own level, and I don't want to hold more experienced paddler's back. The reason I went on this particular SnG was the key phrase "leisurely pace." I am not a racer. Given the location, I figured I could bail if I needed to without holding anyone else back. I must admit that someone on the SnG thread mentioned being excited about surfing, which caused me to hestitate, but I did it anyway. I don't mind open ocean, surf, rocks, as I want to learn all these things, and I was delighted at the opportunity. I wouldn't have tried it had I not been in a group where there was clear willingness to offer tips and help out if necessary.

So, if the post for a SnG can include some idea of Level can be given, an idea of the possible options (i.e., rock gardens and surfing if desired but not necessitated by circumstance), and a clear indication that beginners are welcome, all these would help in encouraging those of us who hesitation.

Of course, now that I have actually gone through some rocks, and surfed a tiny bit, I am much more willing to jump in and see what happens in the future.

Maria

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Hey Maria,

You might like Sat.'s upcoming SNG. Check it out when you have a chance.

[vincent]

I'm a beginner-2nd full season. Probably on L2 for skills. I would love a series type of instruction. I have taken an intro class at CRCK but need to learn more bracing/support stuff. I feel I should learn how to avoid capsizing-then learn to roll.I would also like to learn and practice a correct forward stroke. I would like to have assisted rescues down perfectly. I understand the lean thing but havent really used it much-so do I know it? Why do I turn when I paddle backwards? Hmmm...I was only going to mention the bracing when I started.

I have been meaning to go to Tues. practices (I live around the corner) but work or weather gets in the way. I think Ill be there next Tues. Hopefully, Ill be a member by then.

Vin

[EEL]

> I

>also want to learn that groovy thing where you move your

>Kayak sideways without dumping myself over.

>

Hmmm. That is likely the only thing I could show someone how to do...if you mean a sculling draw. Well, a hanging draw too I guess. Anyway, next time we meet on the water, just ask and we will spend some time playing with it. It is amazing how useful and just fun it can be.

My basically ignorant opinion is that early on it is better to play/learn strokes, especially braces and steering strokes of all kinds in varied circumstances than focus with obsession on rolling. Rather think of rolling as just another stroke in the quiver. Better to be comfy and loose in your boat than tense and needing to rely on roll.

Ed Lawson

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Ed,

Good not to be obsessed with anything; however, may people are much more at ease in a boat if they know they can roll if need be.

[albaz1369]

I am a new member, probably novice level 1 experience, (as low as you can be rated) this is my first year at kayaking and enjoy it. I go to deer island and spend about an hour on the water about 3 times a week, basically I am building endurance and try to stay out longer each time and go out further each time. I am fairly confident in my kayak but have gotten concerned when I was hit with some unexpected swells. I would like some more practice in wet exits and unassisted reentries. I tried rolling and all I got was exhausted. I was successful a couple of times but was not consistent. learning to roll would be good but I am not going to be a fanatic about it. I think its more important to try and stay upright in the first place. (especially now that they found a shark in the area I kayak) I was at the lake tuesday Aug2 but only met a couple of other newbies. we were thinking we were in the wrong place. I will return next week. Hope to see you all there. Be safe Al Baz

[djlewis]

Hi, Al:

You were at the right place. However, I cancelled the session because of a pollution alert for the lake, or actually, the beach at the north end of the lake -- Sandy Beach, Winchester.

Please watch the NSPN general forum for such announcements on the day of a practice session. I personally aim to have a decision by 3:00 PM. Other reasons for cancelling are thunderstorms and sometimes there is nobody available to lead, though we always try to have backup.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

--David.