Kayak transport on electric vehicles

[Jim Snyder]

I'm starting this thread to see if anyone has experience carrying kayaks on an EV. A quick search of the internet suggests expecting a 25 to 40% loss in range, depending on driving habits. We have just ordered a Bolt EUV and I will be posting my experience here when it arrives. I've also done a lot of research recently on the economics of EVs and solar and would be happy to discuss it with anyone thinking of going this route.

[Dan Foster]

We've been very happy with the performance of our Nissan Leaf. EV range falls off in the cold and if you floor it on the interstate, but it's been easy enough to anticipate that and plan accordingly. We haven't mounted a roof rack or carried kayaks on ours, but our neighbor has, and I'll try to ask about her experiences.

I'm also happy to discuss the joys and occasional pitfalls of electrifying all the things (Nissan Leaf, Husqvarna Automower, Mitsubishi mini-splits) with anyone contemplating an upgrade.

[Jim Snyder]

Can we keep this topic to evs and kayaks though? Also remember, unless you're producing your own electricity or somehow sourcing renewable, you're driving a vehicle or running a chainsaw on nuclear, natural gas, or coal. 

[billvoss]

So far the Wednesday Lunch Paddle on 5/11/2022 is the only paddle where my new Tesla Model Y Long Range hauled a kayak on the outside.  The round trip was well within the car's range.  I still had 30% charge when I got home and charged the Tesla as usual.  I did find the modern driver assistance features and the lack of engine vibration made the trip much more tolerable than it would have been in my old CRV.

My main "issue" had nothing to do with it being an EV.  Changing from the Thule Square bars that I've used forever, to the Tesla wing has proved a pain.  I'm happy with my bow and stern tie downs, but still not entirely satisfied with how my kayak rack fits on the wing bar.

The other issue is EV specific.  Without the noise from an internal combustion engine to drown it out, the wind noise from carrying a kayak at interstate speeds is more noticeable.  Fortunately turning up the radio volume has made that at most a minor inconvenience.

The most useful trick I figured out before ordering the Tesla was to use A Better Route Planner to preview my typical long trips with the different vehicles I was considering.  Under advanced settings I specified a lot of battery degradation to simulate carrying a kayak.  I quickly discovered that in New Hampshire charging a Tesla would be easy, while any other brand could be challenging.  I now understand that NH put so many restrictions on their initial solicitation for DC fast charging using the VW settlement money that they received ZERO qualifying proposals.  The second NH proposal garnered 43 qualifying proposals currently being evaluated by the state.  Until some of those proposals are implemented, NH has fair coverage with Tesla DC fast charging sites, but almost no other fast charging north of Manchester.

I am definitely very happy with my EV purchase.  I cannot imagine wanting to go back to an ICE vehicle in the future.

[billvoss]

1 hour ago, Jim Snyder said:

Can we keep this topic to evs and kayaks though? Also remember, unless you're producing your own electricity or somehow sourcing renewable, you're driving a vehicle or running a chainsaw on nuclear, natural gas, or coal. 

From an environmental perspective, the most important aspect of EVs is just how incredibly efficient electric motors are compared to internal combustion motors.  My Model Y is rated by the EPA at 122 MPGe.  That totally blows away any comparable internal combustion engine vehicle.  Even if I charged my Tesla with nothing but electricity generated in Coal Fired power plants, studies show it would produce less CO2 than a comparable ICE vehicle over its expected lifetime including manufacturing emissions.

Fortunately, the New England grid currently produces around half of its electricity from a combination of Nuclear, Hydro, Wind, and Solar, with most of the rest coming from natural gas, and almost nothing coming from Coal.  Even better, the grid is expected to become greener over the expected lifetime of a car purchased this year.

Beyond that some areas have community solar projects, and most areas have "green energy" plans which buy Renewable Energy Credits to offset the CO2 from any non-green sources they use.  You may also be able to install solar on your own property, and then agonize over whether to swap your totally green energy for totally dirty energy by selling your Renewable Energy Credits.

Bottom line, Battery Electric Vehicles and Battery Electric Tools currently have fewer CO2 emissions than their internal combustion engine equivalents for anyone connected to the New England power grid.  In many cases, battery electric also means more torque, less vibration, and more reliable as well.

P.S. @Dan Foster when I next see you on the water, I would be very curious to learn about your automower.

[prudenceb]

So what happens if you're in your EV and you're in northern Maine (maybe the wilds of Northern Maine) for a kayaking trip and you didn’t do the best job in the world estimating your kayak-on-the-roof battery degradation…and the car runs out of juice and glides to a silent stop in the middle of nowhere?  What next?  I guess a long tow…assuming your phone is able to get service there to call for one.  Seems most folks I know who have an EV live in a two-car household, where the other vehicle is not an EV.

Not ready to turn in my one-car household's thus-far trusty Subaru just yet…
 

[Jim Snyder]

1 hour ago, prudenceb said:

So what happens if you're in your EV and you're in northern Maine (maybe the wilds of Northern Maine) for a kayaking trip and you didn’t do the best job in the world estimating your kayak-on-the-roof battery degradation…and the car runs out of juice and glides to a silent stop in the middle of nowhere?

That's why you wear a tow belt, Prudence!

Seriously, I'm committed to smart trip planning and will occasionally still use the truck if I don't think I can manage it. For most of my trips I think it will work.

[Jim Snyder]

2 hours ago, billvoss said:

You may also be able to install solar on your own property, and then agonize over whether to swap your totally green energy for totally dirty energy by selling your Renewable Energy Credits.

The truth is, if you don't sell those RECs the utilities get them for free. We've been solar since we built our house in 2013. We have banked enough kilowatt hours to drive 22.000 miles by my calculation. I will probably add about 3000 watts of array to try to get to net zero.

[billvoss]

2 hours ago, prudenceb said:

So what happens if you're in your EV and you're in northern Maine (maybe the wilds of Northern Maine) for a kayaking trip and you didn’t do the best job in the world estimating your kayak-on-the-roof battery degradation…and the car runs out of juice and glides to a silent stop in the middle of nowhere?  What next?  I guess a long tow…assuming your phone is able to get service there to call for one.  Seems most folks I know who have an EV live in a two-car household, where the other vehicle is not an EV.

Not ready to turn in my one-car household's thus-far trusty Subaru just yet…
 

First off it is really really difficult to "accidentally" run out of charge.  All modern EVs give you lots and lots of warnings.  When they get really low, they also start informing you that they are doing things like restricting your top speed, or limiting climate control to save energy and increase range.

In the case of a Tesla, if I am in northern Maine I am also going to be using Tesla's in car navigation.  The navigation system automatically shows my estimated arrival state of charge, and my round trip estimated state of charge.  If I don't have enough charge to reach my destination, the navigation system automatically adds the needed charging stops to my trip unless I turn that feature off.  I have seen on YouTube Tesla cross country drivers say it is easier to drive across the more vacant parts of the country in a Tesla than in an ICE car because the Tesla does all the calculations for them, and they don't have to calculate gas stops where gas stations are sparse.

However, supposing I didn't use the navigation system, and decided to push on and ignore all those early warnings because I was sleepy and running late.  I'm down to where the low on gas light would turn on with an internal combustion engine car in the wilds of Northern Maine at night.  I don't need to find a dedicated EV charger, an open gas station, or a tow yet.  I just need to find someone willing to let me plug into a standard electrical outlet like I would plug a lamp into.  If they will let me plug in, I could use my so called "granny lead," a low power charger that runs off a standard plug.  Low power chargers are available for all EVs.  Most/all? manufacturers either bundle them as standard equipment, or offer them as an option.  After market models are also available.  The granny lead won't charge me up very fast, maybe 3 or 4 miles of charge an hour.  I might be sleeping in my car that night if I really goofed up, kicking myself for not topping off in Bangor or Ellsworth at a Tesla supercharger.

By the way, 15 amps of electricity from a standard outlet for an hour is under 2 kWh, so less than 40 cents of electricity.

Historical note:  When cars first became popular in the US, thanks to rural electrification EVs were more popular in rural communities where gas stations were few and far between.

Now if you drive a Tesla and like me want to be prepared, besides getting the Tesla Mobile Adapter "granny lead," you would also purchase the Tesla NEMA Adapter Bundle.  While a standard 15 amp 120 outlet only provides a Model Y with 3 or 4 miles of range, if I can find a campground with electric power for RVs, or even just someone with an electric dryer plug I can reach I can charge a lot faster.  Using a 14-50 or 6-50 outlet, the model Y gains about 29 miles of range per hour of charge.

By the way, if I'm going to northern Maine, I'm probably going to make a reservation at a campground that can promise me a site with a 240 outlet.  Besides letting me charge my EV, it will also let me sleep inside my car running in Tesla's "camp mode."  Camp mode lets me run the climate control all night and sleep at whatever temperature I prefer, having the display show video of a campfire is also an option!

[Pintail]

<Changing from the Thule Square bars that I've used forever, to the Tesla wing has proved a pain>

Excuse the hijack; but Billy's point (see quote) is, indeed, valid: Thule have seen fit to manufacture equipment (bars and suchlike) that can last almost a lifetime if you take good care of them (as I do); but now, having changed vehicles recently, I find that the podium feet and adapters are no longer made to fit my bars -- major cost ahead, I fear!  Damn!

Sorry: you may go back to mainstream of the thread (I think it was already veering off-course...?

[Ken]

9 hours ago, Pintail said:

<Changing from the Thule Square bars that I've used forever, to the Tesla wing has proved a pain>

Excuse the hijack; but Billy's point (see quote) is, indeed, valid: Thule have seen fit to manufacture equipment (bars and suchlike) that can last almost a lifetime if you take good care of them (as I do); but now, having changed vehicles recently, I find that the podium feet and adapters are no longer made to fit my bars -- major cost ahead, I fear!  Damn!

Sorry: you may go back to mainstream of the thread (I think it was already veering off-course...?

I have the old square bars without the ratchet grove on the bottom, won't fit the new feet.  It would have been about $600 for new feet and bars for my Camry.  I used foam blocks and about eight tie-down straps until I had a chance to swap my kid the Camry for the Venza for the summer.  Yeah, still hijacking the thread; back to EVs...

I still don't drive enough to make it worthwhile buying an EV at the present time.  I've considered keeping the venza for AWD in snow, trips to the dump, long trips with boats and lots of gear; and then getting something super efficient like a Bolt for day-to-day driving.  The killer is there is almost no break for insuring a second vehicle.  It'd add $600-800/year to add the second vehicle to the policy which would be more than I'd save on fuel.  To lose the Venza and buy an electric with equivalent capabilities would be like $60K.

I'm still wondering if there will be a breakthrough in eFuels and we'll eventually have renewable carbon neutral fuel.

 

-K

[Jim Snyder]

Finally got my Yakima rack installed and went to the local pond to cool off with some rolling practice. Ready to go on a longer trip to assess the effect  on range of the kayak on the roof. 

I'm anticipating getting some grief from people I've teased about having bad color combinations of cars and kayaks...?

[Jim Snyder]

Update: 

I did my first ocean trip today, Canterbury to Odiorne and back. I did pretty good on the way there but it was pretty much downhill and with a pretty  consistent 10-12kt tailwind. I got 4.2 miles per kwh which is actually above average for the Bolt. By the time I finished my 102 mile round trip I was down to 3.7 m/kwh which means I was down to 3.2 on the return trip. The bottom line is if I can get 3.7 on my 65 Kwh battery my effective round trip range leaving a 10% cushion would be 106 miles. The only place I go commonly that challenges that range is Lane's Cove. Beyond that I need to find some good fast chargers on my routes. 

Of course game changes during the winter but maybe not that much since I don't paddle below 30 degrees. 

I've noticed that trips to the ocean are generally downhill on average and uphill on the way home. That means you can't get overconfident just because you did well on the way there. 

I wonder if our gas vehicles get the same 10% or so reduction in efficiency with a boat on the rack. 

[prudenceb]

My Crosstrek gets about 35 mpg (and sometimes more if I'm a bit below speed limit) without boat and about 31-32 with boat.  So, yes, about 10% reduction for my old-fashioned car.

[billvoss]

18 hours ago, Jim Snyder said:

The bottom line is if I can get 3.7 on my 65 Kwh battery my effective round trip range leaving a 10% cushion would be 106 miles. The only place I go commonly that challenges that range is Lane's Cove. Beyond that I need to find some good fast chargers on my routes.

At first I read your post as meaning you could only drive 106 miles leaving a 10% cushion, and I was shocked. 

Then I compared the EPA ratings on my Model Y and your Bolt EUV and decided you meant you could drive about 212 miles a day with a kayak on top while still having a comfortable cushion when you got home.  Next I confirmed it when I did the math (65 Kwh - (10% of 65 Kwh)) * 3.7 miles/Kwh = 216.45 miles.

My June electric bill was charging me $0.202/Kwh.  So that 216.45 mile trip would cost less than $12 in electricity.  I know you have Solar, so you may be spending even less.

The other wonderful part of charging at home is that every morning you wake to a "full charge" and the EV is ready to do it all again.  I was one of those drivers who liked to keep their fuel tank at least half full, just in case.  I love how I leave the house with a "full tank" every morning these days.

Personally, so far, only my round trips north of Franconia Notch, and my trip to Bangor have required charging away from home.

P.S.

For anyone looking for fast chargers along a route, or contemplating an EV purchase, I definitely recommend https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ and the associated phone app to see when and how long you would need to charge.

[Jim Snyder]

So I know Tesla has their  own program but for others DC fast charging is sort of expensive. I had a not kayak related trip to northern Vermont, almost to Canada. The only fast chargers were in the St Johnsbury area. I wasn't confident I could get to my destination and back to St Johnsbury so I stopped on the way up to top up. So here's the thing, some chargers you pay by the kilowatt hour and some you pay by the minute. Generally the kwh is between $.35 and $.50. At $.35/kwh if I'm doing the math right it's roughly equivalent to paying $3.50/gallon for for gas. And if you pay by the minute and want to get a full charge, it starts to slow down at 60% and slows down more as the charge approachs full. I may have paid almost $.80/kwh to get enough to get to my destination and back home. 

I'm wondering which will advance faster, availability of charging or proliferation of evs. For now, charging at home with solar is best. 

 

 

[billvoss]

DC Fast Charging is like filling up with gas at a highway service plaza, not the frugal choice in most cases.

DC Fast Charging also suffers from wildly varying regulations in different states. Some states mandate that DC Fast Charging must charge by kilowatt hours, some mandate that they must charge by time, and some even regulate the specific price that must be charged. Some states allow utilities to charge DC Fast Charging sites "demand" surcharges which can significantly push up the site's electricity costs, while some states prohibit the practice, or exempt EV charging from "demand" surcharges.

The cheapest way to charge is of course "free" charging. Some EV purchases include some complimentary DC Fast Charging. However, most "free" charging is the slower level 2 charging with power levels similar to an electric drier or oven. Usually companies or organizations are providing "Free" charging as an employee and/or customer perk, or to make a "Green" statement. Level 2 charging is so inexpensive, it can be a cheap form of PR.  Similar to the "free shipping"  that Amazon made so popular.

Fortunately, when FREE is not convenient, most EV owners charge almost exclusively at home. In the past 30 days the only time I have DC Fast charged was the trip from NH to RI and southern MA when I bought my Virgo. That represented just 4% of my charging over those 30 days.

[Jim Snyder]

3 hours ago, billvoss said:

Level 2 charging is so inexpensive

Not that inexpensive. Assuming 100% efficiency, (getting one kWh of charge for every kWh consumed), if I average 4 miles/kWh when the utility rate reaches $.24/kWh that's $2.40 to go 40 miles. An efficient gas powered vehicle is currently spending $4.something to go 40 miles. So yes, it's cheaper than gas, but gas is likely to come down some and electricity go up. They're not all that far apart. Charge your car with solar if you can!

The free level 2 chargers are great but unless you can use them overnight, like at a motel, they're not much of a solution. Recently on that trip home from Vermont I thought I was cutting it close so I plugged in for free at an outlet mall about 12 miles from home and ran some errands while eliminating any doubt about making it home.

I can picture a lot of people's eyes glazing over reading this thread if they even read it. This is definitely not for everyone. In 25 years, (I'll be 94!) we may look back at EVs as a cute "bridge technology" to something that really solves our environmental problems. I'm not optimistic.

[billvoss]

53 minutes ago, Jim Snyder said:

Not that inexpensive....

The free level 2 chargers are great but unless you can use them overnight, like at a motel, they're not much of a solution. Recently on that trip home from Vermont I thought I was cutting it close so I plugged in for free at an outlet mall about 12 miles from home and ran some errands while eliminating any doubt about making it home.

Did the outlet mall make money, despite paying for your "free" charge, by inducing you to spend some money while charging?  By your description, I'm guessing they only spent a dollar or two on your "free" electricity.

Does the outlet mall make more money, averaged over all the transactions from all the EV's that spend time getting a "free" charge, compared to what they would make if they spent the money on some combination of Coupons, Google Ads, TV Ads, Radio Ads, Billboards, and US Postal Fliers instead?

5 hours ago, billvoss said:

Level 2 charging is so inexpensive, it can be a cheap form of PR. 

I'm confident the outlet mall put out a press release when they installed the chargers.  I'm confident that Plug Share sends them some EV customers who would not otherwise stop.  I strongly suspect the decision to offer "free" charging is paying for itself.