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Posted (edited)

Any guidance appreciated...I am hoping that the Nystrom or the Sylvester will read this...I am trying to make one of my Greenland paddles look nice again, after time has taken its toll on its appearance. The paddle is a Cricket, varnished at the factory or their workshop.

Question: after sanding (mostly, the not-very-good second coat I applied a season or two ago) must I remove <every> vestige of varnish first? I have a suspicion that the (inlaid) tips are epoxy-coated.

Thanks!

Edited by Pintail
Posted

Assume it has some dark water spots?

Chips and multi colored?

Even if you sand it bare you may still have some black stains where water has seeped under the varnish. Those would show under new varnish. Black stains can be bleached out or minimized with some success.

Sanding bare and oiling is a good option.

What is the patina you wish to see? Or do you want it to look new?

Posted (edited)

Paul, I am going to call you "Speedy Gonzalez" in future! Thanks for the immediate response, old pal!

Actually, there really are no dark spots -- it is more a case of my having graunched the edges from time to time and of covering places where the varnish had worn away from rubbing against decking or suchlike. I had decided that an oiled finish is really nicer-looking and have just re-done my Sawyer, which was oiled from new (I do not employ pure linseed; but dilute it roughly 50% with turps.)

Thank you!

Edited by Pintail
Posted

Linseed oil never really dries to a hard finish. A better solution is to either add some Japan drier to the oil or use a brand like Watco which has the necessary driers already in it.

Posted

Gene, with all due respect, who said anything about wanting a hard finish? Not at all. I always thought that the intention was to get the wood <impregnated> with oil, hence the dilution with turpentine. If left to its own (pure) devices, surely linseed dries to a thin, "plastickey" crust on the surface -- almost useless?

Posted

Gene, with all due respect, who said anything about wanting a hard finish? Not at all. I always thought that the intention was to get the wood <impregnated> with oil, hence the dilution with turpentine. If left to its own (pure) devices, surely linseed dries to a thin, "plastickey" crust on the surface -- almost useless?

Christopher,

Any of the oil products that have some drier will dry to a soft lustre not hard finish-linseed by itself can always remain sticky. You can also dilute the Watco or whatever with turpentine if you want better penetration. Bon chance!

Posted

Let's correct a few things here.

Diluting oil or varnish does almost nothing to improve penetration, except on end grain. There's very little of that on a GP (shoulders and tips are about it), so you're better off not diluting it, as it just makes the resulting finish more porous. I must confess however, that I really love the scent of linseed oil thinned with turps... :blink:

Linseed oil does cure to a hard finish, but not a glossy one like varnish. Because it does not build to a thick film like varnish, it will never seem to be as hard and it is not as protective. However, it is flexible, so it will never crack like varnish can, which makes it idea for items like GPs that flex a lot. Since it seals the pores in the wood and it's also somewhat breathable, water cannot become trapped under it and cause dark staining (mildew).

Boiled linseed oil from the big box stores contains driers and there is no benefit to adding more. Raw linseed oil does not contain driers and takes a very long time to cure. Unless you're paranoid about the minute amount of cobalt that will be in the finish on your paddle, there's no point in buying raw linseed oil (I don't chew on my paddles much, so I'm not worried). There are polymerized oils that do not contain toxic driers and still cure quickly, but they're hard to find locally and somewhat expensive.

You can greatly enhance the durability of linseed or tung oil by mixing it 50:50 with varnish (either natural resin or polyurethane varnish works). You still get the satin sheen and soft feel, but it lasts longer.

With tung oil (my personal preference over linseed) make sure you buy 100% tung oil. Most of the "tung oil finish" products on the market (Formby's, Minwax, etc.) are actually wiping varnish and contain little or no actual tung oil. You pay a premium price for a product that's mostly just mineral spirits.

As for the specifics of Christopher's paddle, I agree with Paul. Sand it to bare wood, then apply either oil or an oil/varnish blend. The pores in the wood will probably still be mostly sealed by the factory finish, but that's probably a good thing in the long run.

Posted

To add a wrinkle to the discussion ... I'm noting a few comments elsewhere online to the effect that LAMINATED greenland paddles shouldn't be refinished with oil, the argument being that the varying woods and glue involved need something more protectant such as epoxy, spar varnish, etc.. I'd be grateful for any thoughts you paddle wizards may have on this.

Posted

The concern with laminated paddles is that if the wood is allowed to absorb water, the laminations may expand to different degrees and eventually damage the glue joints. The glue itself should be waterproof, so it should not be directly affected by moisture.

If you want the look and feel of an oil finish, I strongly suggest using an oil/varnish blend for extra durability. If you're diligent about maintaining it - which is easy to do with wipe-on, wipe-off finishes - I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't work fine. If you neglect it, you're likely to have problems in the long term, but that's true regardless of the type of finish.

If you want to use epoxy, remember that you need to varnish over it to protect it from UV exposure. You must also maintain the integrity of the finish so that water doesn't get trapped under it. Overall, maintaining an epoxy and/or varnish finish is more complex and more work than using an oil or oil/varnish blend.

Posted

Thanks so much, Brian! And I note your earlier post in this thread describing an oil/varnish mix. Just to follow up, so I'm clear about it: do you recommend self-mixing it, and if so at 50:50? Or is there a pre-mixed blend (Formby or other) that you'd trust? Thanks ...

Posted

I mix my own so I can be sure of what I'm using. With commercial "oil finish" products, you really have no idea what's in the can other than a lot of thinner. My personal preference is a 50:50 blend of pure tung oil and a natural resin varnish like Epifanes, but polyurethane varnish works fine too and is probably a bit more durable. You may be able to find natural resin varnish at a big box or hardware store; just look for oil-based varnish that doesn't say "polyurethane" on the can. Boiled linseed oil is a good alternative to tung oil, it's available everywhere and it's inexpensive. Don't use raw linseed oil, as it takes forever to cure.

As I mentioned above, oils and varnishes cure when exposed to oxygen so either keep your components and mix in the smallest containers you can find or use an oxygen blocker. It doesn't take more than a few ounces of finish to apply multiple coats to a paddle, so you don't need to mix a lot.

If you really want to see the beauty of the wood grain, sand the paddle to 400 grit (or even 600 grit) after you remove the old finish (I typically sand a new paddle with 80, 150, 220 and 400 grit). Apply the first coat of your blend with a rag, let it sit for ~5 minutes, then wipe off the excess. For the next two coats (at 24 hour intervals), use a piece of 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper to apply the finish. It will remove any roughness from the first coat and help make the surface even smoother. Apply the last coat with a rag again. The detail you'll see in the grain is amazing! If you're more interested in utility and getting the job done quicker, just sand through 220 grit, apply 3-4 coats at 24 hour intervals and call it done. It will still be beautiful and feel great in your hands.

To maintain the finish, wash the paddle down with fresh water, allow it to dry, sand it lightly with 220 grit and apply another coat or two.

IMPORTANT WARNING: Whenever you use rags to apply an oil or varnish finish, you must be VERY careful when disposing of them. If you ball them up and/or throw them in a trash can, the curing oil/varnish can create enough heat to START A FIRE. I recommend spreading them out on the ground or hanging them to let them dry at least overnight. This is not an idle warning; I have tested this personally with rags I used to oil kayak frames. When you see a balled up rag start to smolder and smoke after an hour or so, then open it to find that it's all charred inside, it gets your attention

Posted

You're welcome!

One thing that I forgot to mention is that if you're going to coat the tips with epoxy for increased durability, do that before you apply any other finish. Otherwise, you won't get a good bond between the wood and the epoxy.

Posted

I am going to hi jack this topic sort of !!

Brian,

I have had an awful time with stain holding on my pressure treated wood deck. I would go with trex style but it would be 4 k for my size deck.

I am thinking of some combination of pine tar, linseed oil and turpentine. Similar to the deck coatings on the old sailing ships.

Any thoughts on what would be a good combo?

Do you think I could mix a white pigment into a linseed oil and turp mixture and then paint on? I would just want a hint of white and not looking for much color.

In talking to the paint/ stain rep that came and looked at my deck ( the last 250$ stain job just peeled up) he said that marine finishes do not have to meet the low voc requirements that residential products have to meet.

I do not know of any marine stain that would be appropriate but would consider buying any decent protector. Just have lost faith in the present low voc products.

thoughts?

thank you

Posted

That's an interesting question and somewhat out of my realm of expertise. It makes sense that anything that works on a wooden ship deck should work on a land-based deck, but oil finishes are not terribly scuff resistant. Perhaps the addition of pine tar would improve that. I wonder if a 3-way blend with some polyurethane varnish might be more durable? My best suggestion would be to purchase a small quantity of each and do some test panels. Leave them outside for the rest of the summer and see how they fare.

As for tinting, the standard tints used for epoxy and gelcoat should work with anything oil-based and a test panel or two would help you to figure out how much you need to get the desired color. Commercial paint tints should work too, but they are coarser and tend to settle out of suspension and accent surface irrgularities (like wood grain), where the finer tints don't. Another option is to use artist's oil paint as a tint. It's very fine-grained and stays in suspension well (I've used it on skin boats). It's also thinner than epoxy/gelcoat pigment, so it should be easier to use. I guess it depends on the look you're trying to achieve.

Posted

Not too concerned about scuff resistance. More interested in the best oil that will soak in and give some water repellency for a few years then coat again. I'll try some samples and see how they fare. thanks,

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