USCG Auxiliary Response to Paddle Craft

[Div3SOPE]

order of precedence

overtaken vessel - called the stand on vessel

vessel not under command

vessel restricted in ability to maneuver - dont claim this in a kayak because it doesnt pertain

vessel constrained by draft

fishing vessel - nets and all

sailing vessel - under sail of course

power boat anything with a motor lowest priority!!

seaplane

so what do you think you are? (remember the book wants you to light like a sail boat, but is that really the right one?)

chapter 8 of the basic boating skills course

SO-PE

Merrimack River

[rcohn]

I assume you know the Rules and are asking how are kayaks treated under the Rules. Short answer. Beats me, but this is my $.02.

Kayaks are vessels. By definition they cannot be vessels under power, nor vessels under sail unless propelled by sail, nor a vessel with limited ability to maneuver.

Why would you say this???? Clearly, a kayak not under sail is not a sailboat. However, the Colregs do not define power. If a kayak is not anchored or adrift, it must be powered by something. Ignoring surfing where the power comes from a wave it is under human power and it could be defined under the Colregs as a powerboat.

Any vessel can be a vessel with limited ability to maneuver, towing, divers in the water, laying cable, restricted by a tight channel, why not a kayak? Can we quickly move out of the way of a speeding powerboat? We’re already called speed bumps.

This creates a problem since some rules are written specifically for vessels under power or sail. They are also not written for small recreational boats. The only way out of this is to accept that the rules were not written for recreational vessels, especially kayaks, and one needs to apply the spirit of the Rules in a prudent manner when they do not provide guidance for vessels generally.

The Colregs are written to cover ALL vessels. These are legal rules, they will be applied in determining fault in case of a accident. Claiming you are follow the spirit of the rules as you interpret them will not get you too far. How can you assume any skipper you meet will be following your interpretation of the rules?

For example, I believe the Rules generally require giving way to the starboard vessel when a collision is possible. Given the fact that an emergency tack does raise the potential for injury and even death on the sailing vessel as well as the potential to force it onto a dangerous course, any vessel must generally give way to a sailboat to starboard. Which was why I used that as an example.

Now you are digging yourself further into a hole. A powerboat on a collision course is burdened relative to a boat under sail regardless of whether the sailboat is on starboard OR PORT tack. Tacking is not a scary a maneuver as you seem to imagine (jybing can be different matter) an alert boat can tack quite quickly. And, a sailboat maneuvering in close quarters to another vessel should be very alert. If a sailboat is beating to windward down a channel it will tack at the channel edges, power boats are expected alter course and speed to avoid it. However, this does not give the sailboat the right to tack at any moment you must give the powerboat or other sailboat safe room to see your maneuver and take action to avoid you. If the skipper of the sailboat is paying attention, tacks should be timed so that there is no need to hail the other vessels to give way.

While yelling "starboard!!!" is most often heard when racing sailboats where close crossing under different tacks happen, it is founded upon the Rule concerning two vessels under sail (12)

That is THE ONLY TIME it is heard, period.

and given the overall obligations under the Rules, a kayak when on a course that creates the risk of collision with a vessel under sail, should assume the obligations of the port/windward vessel.

Why??? We still have failed to determine where a kayak fits into the rules. If it is a power boat the sailboat has the would not be expected to give way regardless of which tack is on. If it is defined as limited ability to maneuver, the sailboat is the burdened vessel and should give way.

I would take a yell of "Starboard" to mean the master of the vessel under sail, rightly or wrongly, has determined he will need to tack soon if I do not alter course and my obligation is to alter course to avoid not just the collision but the tack as well. Of course, to even be able to hear the yell suggests I'm too close.

You can yell anything you choose (except fire in a theater), but you have no reason to yell starboard and no reason to expect this would be understood. If you need to hail the other vessel yelling “right of way, give me room” or “bear off” would make more sense, you will have a chance of being understood.

Ralph

[rcohn]

order of precedence

overtaken vessel - called the stand on vessel

vessel not under command

vessel restricted in ability to maneuver - dont claim this in a kayak because it doesnt pertain

vessel constrained by draft

fishing vessel - nets and all

sailing vessel - under sail of course

power boat anything with a motor lowest priority!!

seaplane

so what do you think you are? (remember the book wants you to light like a sail boat, but is that really the right one?)

chapter 8 of the basic boating skills course

SO-PE

Merrimack River

You're the expert, where do kayaks fit? We're not driftwood, we must have some rights/obligations on the water.

The idea that a kayak might be best classified as limited ability to maneuver came from a Coast Guard article. Please explain why is does not pertain.

Ralph

[Div3SOPE]

Just to stir the pot a little bit regarding the application of the NH light rules on its coast. If you want to play lawyer read 33 CFR Section 80.115 which establishes the COLREGS demarcation line between Portland Head and Cape Ann. Hint, except for Portsmouth Harbor and Little Harbor, the inland rules have no application along the coast of NH Then consider these questions, is the USA obligated by International Treaty to abide by and enforce only the COLREGS outside the demarcation line? If yes, then does it have the power to not exercise preemption of state law on matters covered by the COLREGS and would a state have any jurisdiction regardless to impose and enforce a law in contravention of the COLREGS outside the demarcation line?

Obviously there has been too much snow and the winter has been too long which has addled my brain.

Ed Lawson

Would it seem silly to have a NH harbormaster attempt to pull over a international tanker because they dont comply with NH rules? Would be interesting if the captain was given a ticket for not complying with state laws requiring boating education .

The only rules I am aware of that a state may take in the so called colreg space is fishing. Exact distances I am not aware of.

[EEL]

Thank you for providing an excellent demonstration of why a class on the applicability of the Rules might be useful.

Otherwise, I believe I now see the nature of things. My mistake. It is the NSPN board after all.

[Div3SOPE]

You're the expert, where do kayaks fit? We're not driftwood, we must have some rights/obligations on the water.

The idea that a kayak might be best classified as limited ability to maneuver came from a Coast Guard article. Please explain why is does not pertain.

Ralph

Every operator on the water as well as the owner has a responsibility to themselves, to others, to the state, the federal government and to the international community. ColRegs are one of the few international treaty "laws" that are expected to be followed. Remember the saying ignorance of the law is no excuse. It applies here too for each and everyone except for a swimmer.

You are required to equip your boat with the appropriate safety equipment which is determined by over all length. Most kayaks fall within two length classes which have different stuff.

One of the most popular items is flares. Some insist on SOLAS flares. Read the approval printed on device if it doesnt say something about USCG approved, in reality it doesnt exist and you could be ticketed and fined.

Paddlecraft operators are also held accountable to the "BUI" and "BWI" laws in most states.

Each state has the right to "add" requirements to a federal list but cannot take anything away. Look at the fact that the federal laws dont require things like radioes.

Everyone has the responsibily to comply with the "rules of the road" inland or international dependent upon where they are in relation to the colreg demark line.

You never "win" Rule number 2 requires you to break all rules to avoid a collision as well as the rules on lookouts.

The fact that you float on the water makes you a vessel.

The simplest way to interpret hierarchy is to define what you are not from the most burdened to the least.

Human powered is not a "power boat"

The fact that a kayak displaces inches of water loaded means you have more area to "manuever" in. ditto constrained by draft

Its obvious kayaks are not seaplanes

So in most cases (legal disclaimer here. I am no lawyer or in enforcement) as other rules have stated you are under oars and also could be lighted like a sailboat of a similar size. Then to is the common sense rule of "tonnage".

Sound signals would be interesting. I think the public as well as other boaters would be mildly amused if when backing up you gave the 3 blasts for propulsion astern.

The most protectable instance is when a powerboater endangers you with their wake. I I was to have a hot cup of coffee and a wake caused me to pour it down the front of my shirt and I burned myself while in ANY boat, they are breaking the law of care.

If it is hard to make an assessment make the boat bigger like a Norse rowboat, The TransTasman rowboat, Pacific outrigger canoe.

SO-PE

Merrimack River

[Div3SOPE]

Thank you for providing an excellent demonstration of why a class on the applicability of the Rules might be useful.

Otherwise, I believe I now see the nature of things. My mistake. It is the NSPN board after all.

Ed,

I always enjoy a spirited discussion. All laws that are made in our country and states are for the people and by the people. Some are stupid and to old to be applicable. NSPN and other paddling groups have abilities to mobilize on their behalf. Look at the inroads paddlegroups make with whitewater rivers and streams. Years ago the government put logs and other impoundment devices for fish ways and didnt engage. Now it is a successful program in which the goverment actively seeks guidance.

Care to pick apart another item? I am game..

[rick stoehrer]

rule of tonnage. head on a swivel. stay outta the damn way.

don't start nuthin', won't be nuthin' (to rip off will smith from MIB)

and that's practically about all i've ever needed to know about rules of the road.

[EEL]

and that's practically about all i've ever needed to know about rules of the road.

Bingo!

Ed Lawson

[spuglisi]

Bingo!

Ed Lawson

And...here's a little ditty that I read recently...

Here lies the body of Micheal O'day

he died defending his right of way

He knew he was right, dead right, as he sailed (paddled) along

But, he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong

author unknown

[rcohn]

Just keep yelling "starboard" Ed, it will show everyone you're a great seaman who really knows his stuff

[rcohn]

After a lot of searching I finally found the article to which I was refering.

see: http://www.auxguidanceskills.info/press/paddlemessage.html

The most relevant passage:

Let me remind you dear reader that our manually propelled brethren are restricted in maneuverability, they should be given the legal courtesy of the bigger more maneuverable Power boat, by having the latter stay out of the way of the former. In other words, Rule 18 of “The Rules of the Road International Regulations for Avoiding Collisions at Sea”; better known as COLREGS; states that

“(a)A power driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of: (i)a vessel not under command; (ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; (iii)a vessel engaged in fishing; (iv)a sailing vessel;”.

How are we simple ordinary boaters going to understand the rules, if the USCG seems unable to agree on proper interpretation as well?

Ralph

[Div3SOPE]

Ralph

I hate quibbling on words I will though. Wayne used the line restricted in maneuverability not restricted in her ability to maneuver. Yes while it is true we cant paddle "fast" we can get out of the way it just may take more time.

The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel." A few examples of a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver include but are not limited to: Vessels engaged in underwater dredging, laying cable or pipe, USCG vessels working on Aids to Navigation, Vessels engaged in scuba diving operations having divers in the water and around the vessel. Towing vessels are considered power-driven vessels unless the towing operation severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course, in that case, they would be considered a "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver."

You also need to be lit and have day shapes that are appropriate as well as potential to put out a notice to mariners.

Nice work though!

SO-PE

Merrimack River

[rcohn]

Ralph

I hate quibbling on words I will though. Wayne used the line restricted in maneuverability not restricted in her ability to maneuver. Yes while it is true we cant paddle "fast" we can get out of the way it just may take more time.

The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel."

You recommended using the process of elimination to see where we fall within the rules. Wayne clearly stated that rule 18 applies. Here are the catagories under rule 18

“(a)A power driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:

(i)a vessel not under command; Does not apply, paddler on board

(ii)a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;

(iii)a vessel engaged in fishing; Does not apply unless actually fishing

(iv)a sailing vessel;”. Does not apply. not a sail boat

The only type that might apply in rule 18 is ii, therefore Wayne could not be distinguishing between a vessel "restricted in maneuverability" and a "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" and still apply rule 18 to kayaks.

Ralph

[Div3SOPE]

Ralph..

Please see rule number 3. Kayaks and canoes are "d. None of the above".

and rule 18d

Which brings us back to "but, ultimately the issue of whom "gives way" would fall to what would be "required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case" (Rule 2)."

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rules/Rule18.htm

SO-PE

Merrimack River

[rcohn]

Please tell:

Wayne Spivak

National Press Corps

United States Coast Guard Auxiliary

This is his interpretation of the rules, not mine.

I'm sure the paddling and general boating community will be very interested if the USCG arrives at an official uniform interpretation of how human powered boats fit within the COLREGS.

Ralph

[Div3SOPE]

Please tell:

Wayne Spivak

National Press Corps

United States Coast Guard Auxiliary

This is his interpretation of the rules, not mine.

I'm sure the paddling and general boating community will be very interested if the USCG arrives at an official uniform interpretation of how human powered boats fit within the COLREGS.

Ralph

Ralph

You missed the point. Wayne did not classify paddlecraft. This is a case in which word arrangement is important. Other instance can be read in the rules regarding sound signals between boats in meeting and overtaking situation. One method "requires" and the other does not. Colregs apply to every vessel that is used on water.

There is a official interpretation of the rules

Those seeking official versions of the Navigation Rules should refer to the International Navigational Rules Act of 1977 (Public Law 95-75, 91 Stat. 308, or 33 U.S.C. 1601-1608), and, the Inland Navigation Rules Act of 1980 (Public Law 96-591, 94 Stat. 3415, 33 U.S.C. 2001-2038).

For those who would like ready reference http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/

SO-PE

Merrimack River

[rcohn]

Ralph..

Please see rule number 3. Kayaks and canoes are "d. None of the above".

and rule 18d

Which brings us back to "but, ultimately the issue of whom "gives way" would fall to what would be "required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case" (Rule 2)."

Ok, I'll bite,

Rule 3.d. states

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

And rule 18.d. states:

d)

Any vessel other than a vessel not under command or a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid impeding the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draft, exhibiting the signals in Rule 28.

A vessel constrained by her draft shall navigate with particular caution having full regard to her special condition. [intl]

(e/d) A seaplane on the water shall, in general, keep well clear of all vessels and avoid impeding their navigation. In circumstances, however, where risk of collision exists, she shall comply with the Rules of this Part.

How do these two rules apply to the discussion?

Ralph

[Div3SOPE]

Ralph,

Rule 3 is definitions

d. None of the above -- was a parody on military style tests.

18d..the key is "Any vessel...."

SO-PE

Merrimack River

[rcohn]

With the new article in Sea Kayaker on the rules of the road, it thought it might be a nice time to revisit the fun we had last March. As you may recall the one thing our experts firmly agreed on (see below) is that human power is not a power vessel and a paddle is not a machine.

However the “expert†selected by Sea Kayaker Craig Jungers states exactly the opposite “A paddle can be defined as machinery , but definitions aside, my advice is to assume that kayaks are to be treated under the law as if they were powerboats.

So now we have opinions from mariners who believe they have sufficient understanding of the COLREGs that kayaks are treated as

1) power boats

2) vessels with limited maneuverability

3) vessels that are neither power nor sailboats (basically have no rights and need to stay out of everyone’s way.

I( may be wrong but since it seems that all conceivable options must be covered, then someone must be right. I think it would be refreshing to someday hear from a real specialist in marine law and find out how we fit under the COLREGs.

Ralph

The fact that you float on the water makes you a vessel.

The simplest way to interpret hierarchy is to define what you are not from the most burdened to the least.

Human powered is not a "power boat"

SO-PE

Merrimack River

I assume you know the Rules and are asking how are kayaks treated under the Rules. Short answer. Beats me, but this is my $.02. Kayaks are vessels. By definition they cannot be vessels under power, nor vessels under sail unless propelled by sail, nor a vessel with limited ability to maneuver. This creates a problem since some rules are written specifically for vessels under power or sail. They are also not written for small recreational boats. The only way out of this is to accept that the rules were not written for recreational vessels, especially kayaks, and one needs to apply the spirit of the Rules in a prudent manner when they do not provide guidance for vessels generally.

Ed Lawson

[rick stoehrer]

....and the debate apparently continues. why re-visit? seems like we're getting stuck on an issue that is evolving but should really be just a matter of tonnage and common sense.

until such time as anyone gets the opportunity to retain marine law counsel and let us all know what's going on, i'm running with STAY OUT OF THE FREAKIN' WAY.

then once someone gets a definitive answer? i'm still running with STAY OUT OF THE FREAKIN' WAY.

personally, the "real" answer is irrelevant.

[rcohn]

....and the debate apparently continues. why re-visit? seems like we're getting stuck on an issue that is evolving but should really be just a matter of tonnage and common sense.

then once someone gets a definitive answer? i'm still running with STAY OUT OF THE FREAKIN' WAY.

personally, the "real" answer is irrelevant.

Rick, when I'm not interested in a subject I usually just don't add posts to the thread.

I think we all know the law to tonnage, it has been repeated several times in this thread, but this was a discussion about rule of law, not handy principles to live by.

One very good reason to be interested is that the rules of the road do not only dictate the way we must behave around other vessels, but also the way other vessels must behave around kayaks. If kayaks are none of the above, I think we would be the burdened vessel in all encounters. No sail or power boat should ever need to deviate in their course or speed in the slightest to allow for a kayak's presence. If they were forced to alter course to avoid collision, the kayaker would be in violation of the law.

However, if rule 18 applies, sail and power boats become the burdened vessels in most encounters, required by law to alter course and/or speed, while the kayak would be the stand-on vessel. This might make channel crossing and navigating harbors a little bit safer.

Ralph

[rick stoehrer]

i didn't say i wasn't interested.

i'll be curious to see where it all falls down but it doesn't seem like there is a right and a wrong and certainly if it's debatable ad nauseum on a web board of what practical use is it on the water?

i think it's silly.

[EEL]

i'll be curious to see where it all falls down but it doesn't seem like there is a right and a wrong and certainly if it's debatable ad nauseum on a web board of what practical use is it on the water?

http://yachtpals.com/maltese-falcon-yacht-collision-3074

Ed Lawson

[jason]

http://yachtpals.com/maltese-falcon-yacht-collision-3074

Ed Lawson

Ed,

Thanks for the article, in the thread that follows there seems to be as much talk about costal reg as in this thread.

-Jason