What would you do if...

[djlewis]

If it's a lovely day for a mellow paddle with your honey -- 5 kts, 1-2 ft, not a cloud in the sky and chance of precipitation negative 10%. Low 90's. You've just driven nearly an hour to the put-in. You've unloaded the boats from the car and set them near the water, mindful of the rising tide. You've popped the hatch covers and have mostly loaded the boats. You've lugged the tub down to the boats and are starting to unload it. Slowly it dawns on you... you've forgotten your PFD! Your honey has hers, but you have none. Aieee... how could I!! Why didn't we run through our usual checklist as we drove off?! You call out to the friend nearby about to take off on his own paddle to see if he has a spare PFD in the car -- nope, but he has one at home. Thanks, I've got FIVE at home, including my current one!

You stop. You ponder... we've had it pounded into our thick skulls from before we even sat in a kayak -- Thou. Shalt. Not. Paddle. Without. Wearing. a. P. F. D. People we see on the water without PFD's are a sub-human species, to be mocked and despised -- they are invoking the Darwin effect in the extreme.

What would you do...

[risingsn]

If it's a lovely day for a mellow paddle with your honey -- 5 kts, 1-2 ft, not a cloud in the sky and chance of precipitation negative 10%. Low 90's. You've just driven nearly an hour to the put-in. You've unloaded the boats from the car and set them near the water, mindful of the rising tide. You've popped the hatch covers and have mostly loaded the boats. You've lugged the tub down to the boats and are starting to unload it. Slowly it dawns on you... you've forgotten your PFD! Your honey has hers, but you have none. Aieee... how could I!! Why didn't we run through our usual checklist as we drove off?! You call out to the friend nearby about to take off on his own paddle to see if he has a spare PFD in the car -- nope, but he has one at home. Thanks, I've got FIVE at home, including my current one!

You stop. You ponder... we've had it pounded into our thick skulls from before we even sat in a kayak -- Thou. Shalt. Not. Paddle. Without. Wearing. a. P. F. D. People we see on the water without PFD's are a sub-human species, to be mocked and despised -- they are invoking the Darwin effect in the extreme.

What would you do...

Take a deep breathe...count to ten, put away the rescue knives & find a great place for lunch on the way home.

What did you do???

[Suz]

I would paddle!

What did you do?

[djlewis]

I would paddle!

What did you do?

Score so far -- 1 paddle, 1 don't paddle

Keep those votes coming in. You can explain your vote too, but it's not required.

--David.

[leong]

If it's a lovely day for a mellow paddle with your honey -- 5 kts, 1-2 ft, not a cloud in the sky and chance of precipitation negative 10%. Low 90's. You've just driven nearly an hour to the put-in. You've unloaded the boats from the car and set them near the water, mindful of the rising tide. You've popped the hatch covers and have mostly loaded the boats. You've lugged the tub down to the boats and are starting to unload it. Slowly it dawns on you... you've forgotten your PFD! Your honey has hers, but you have none. Aieee... how could I!! Why didn't we run through our usual checklist as we drove off?! You call out to the friend nearby about to take off on his own paddle to see if he has a spare PFD in the car -- nope, but he has one at home. Thanks, I've got FIVE at home, including my current one!

You stop. You ponder... we've had it pounded into our thick skulls from before we even sat in a kayak -- Thou. Shalt. Not. Paddle. Without. Wearing. a. P. F. D. People we see on the water without PFD's are a sub-human species, to be mocked and despised -- they are invoking the Darwin effect in the extreme.

What would you do...

If you're a fairly good swimmer then paddle and enjoy the day, but avoid rock play or anything else where you might be knocked out. For added safety, you can keep an inflated paddle float on your deck and hold on to it if you go for an unintended swim.

Reminds me of the time I went to Walden Pond to swim and then practice rolls. After a five-mile swim I got into the kayak and began my rolling practice (w/o a PFD, which I also left home). Got a warning from the park police about kayaking w/o a PFD. Go figure; I'm allowed to swim long distances w/o a PFD but I not allowed to paddle in the same small warm-water pond w/o a PFD.

Also reminds me of a story that Joel (of NESC) told me. Seems that Kacy Lafferty (Executive Director of Discovery Adventures near Lanes Cove) was out paddling on Ipswich Bay in mid-summer wearing a cotton paddling shirt. She related to Joel that some NSPN members “chewed†her out for wearing “cottonâ€. Come on, boys and girls, there’s nothing unsafe about cotton on Ipswich Bay on a calm and hot summer day. At least it’s not worth complaining about!

In my own case, I’ve found one significant disadvantage to wearing a PFD. When I attempt a re-entry and roll I first remove my PFD. It gets in my way and makes it hard to flip upside down to re-enter the cockpit (yeah, I know there are other ways to re-enter, but not as fast as flipping upside down). I don’t have the problem when I use a cartridge-inflatable belt-pack PFD, like this one  http://www.amazon.com/Stearns-Sospenders-B...396&sr=1-12 (similar to the model that I use for racing).

The main reason I use the standard PFD most of the time is it gives me pockets to hold my knife, VHF, snacks, flares, extra compass, etc. and a place to hold my fishing pole when trolling.

[rick stoehrer]

If it's a lovely day for a mellow paddle with your honey -- 5 kts, 1-2 ft, not a cloud in the sky and chance of precipitation negative 10%. Low 90's. You've just driven nearly an hour to the put-in. You've unloaded the boats from the car and set them near the water, mindful of the rising tide. You've popped the hatch covers and have mostly loaded the boats. You've lugged the tub down to the boats and are starting to unload it. Slowly it dawns on you... you've forgotten your PFD! Your honey has hers, but you have none. Aieee... how could I!! Why didn't we run through our usual checklist as we drove off?! You call out to the friend nearby about to take off on his own paddle to see if he has a spare PFD in the car -- nope, but he has one at home. Thanks, I've got FIVE at home, including my current one!

You stop. You ponder... we've had it pounded into our thick skulls from before we even sat in a kayak -- Thou. Shalt. Not. Paddle. Without. Wearing. a. P. F. D. People we see on the water without PFD's are a sub-human species, to be mocked and despised -- they are invoking the Darwin effect in the extreme.

What would you do...

first, i guess i wouldn't make fun of folks that paddle sans pfd..surf skiers rarely wear them and hear tell some of them are pretty good paddlers/athletes and probably not folks to be mocked or despised by anyone using their head as anything more than a hat rack. mostly the sub human species to be mocked and ridiculed are folks speaking in absolutes...beware zealots of all ilk.

to your point, having forgotten mine on several occasions, i'd paddle and not think twice about it.

[djlewis]

first, i guess i wouldn't make fun of folks that paddle sans pfd..surf skiers rarely wear them and hear tell some of them are pretty good paddlers/athletes and probably not folks to be mocked or despised by anyone using their head as anything more than a hat rack. mostly the sub human species to be mocked and ridiculed are folks speaking in absolutes...beware zealots of all ilk.

to your point, having forgotten mine on several occasions, i'd paddle and not think twice about it.

OK, that's the last piece of my thinking. Yeah, I paddled (as Leon knows).

Leon hit most of the issues. A PFD is for (1) general swimming support; (2) specifically to keep you afloat and breathing if unconscious, and (3) for the pockets and things you can hang on it. I am a good swimmer, and I wasn't planning to play in rocks (much), especially being in a party of only two. Deborah had munchies in her PFD and I put the VHF (yeah, l remembered that) in the day hatch. I did without the sea snips and night light and other small items in the pocket, and put the hydration bag on the front deck. A whistle is of marginal value with a party of two on a mild day. And I was extra-special careful to put a car key in my day bag, to replace the one that's tethered inside my PFD pocket. I did miss the watch that lives on the strap, but remembered how to tell time from the position of the sun above the horizon, which was accurate enough.

As for Rick's point, I thought of racers who don't wear PFDs (and may have managed to convince the legislature to make an exception for them). The mocking/despising thing was mostly caricaturing how we often talk about clueless novices or worse, experienced paddlers who disdain PFDs , but Rick's right, it is a stereotype.

Anyway, after going through all the above reasoning, we were both less anxious, and had a good paddle.

Had it been a missing spray skirt, however, we probably would have gone home without paddling.

But now I may finally make that checklist for the sun visor of the car... boat check; tied down check; paddle check; spray skirt check; lunch check; pfd -- umm, waitaminute!

[PeterB]

It would depend: on the body of water, the conditions, and who I was with.

If I was alone, i probably would not paddle on the ocean.

If I was with others who could do rescues and were okay with it, hell yeah.

If the water was really cold, or conditions a bit harsh, no. Unless I was with others who were very sharp with rescues and general incident management. Then, maybe.

So, in the situation you described, assuming your paddling partner was okay with it and could do a rescue if needed , yes,I would paddle.

[bob budd]

As some have already said it depends on the conditions and the company, not a yes or no question. Reminds me of a day Roger Pollock spent in Goose Cove, which for me includes practice in riding moderate standing waves AND rolling. Got back to the car, opened the hatch, and there was my PFD in the back. So I guess its not just if you remember to bring it but if you remember to put it on.

[EEL]

Leaving aside all the issues discussed in this thread and no doubt due to my being a picky sort, isn't it a legal requirement in waters under the jurisdiction of the Coast Guard for there to be a PFD present on a kayak not involved in racing?

Ed Lawson

[rick stoehrer]

Leaving aside all the issues discussed in this thread and no doubt due to my being a picky sort, isn't it a legal requirement in waters under the jurisdiction of the Coast Guard for there to be a PFD present on a kayak not involved in racing?

Ed Lawson

yup. i think even on the racing boats there is a requirement....just not so sure it's enforced.

bottom line for me is that it makes more sense to have it and wear it than not have it buuutttt...stuff happens and like everything else, you gauge your risks individually day/day.

[djlewis]

Leaving aside all the issues discussed in this thread and no doubt due to my being a picky sort, isn't it a legal requirement in waters under the jurisdiction of the Coast Guard for there to be a PFD present on a kayak not involved in racing?

Ed Lawson

I do not think the CG has a legally-enforceable PFD rule. But the Commonwealth of Massachusetts does. You must have PFD on board for each person, and that does apply to kayaks. Furthermore, from September 15 to May 15 -- you know, the times of year when the water is the coldest (irony alert) -- you must actually ~wear~ your PFD.

http://www.boaterexam.com/usa/massachusetts/pfd.aspx

I think all this might change if and when the new law passes, that is, if/when the legislature can overcome its Keystone Kops act.

--David

[EEL]

I do not think the CG has a legally-enforceable PFD rule.

Perhaps, but they believe they do. I rather suspect they have a reason for their belief.

Ed Lawson

[djlewis]

Perhaps, but they believe they do. I rather suspect they have a reason for their belief.

Ed Lawson

OK, what is it?

[EEL]

OK, what is it?

The following language from the CFR appears to provide a basis for their belief.

TITLE 33 - NAVIGATION AND NAVIGABLE WATERS

CHAPTER I - COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

SUBCHAPTER S - BOATING SAFETY

PART 175 - EQUIPMENT REQUIREMENTS

subpart b - PERSONAL FLOTATION DEVICES

175.15 - Personal flotation devices required.

Except as provided in 175.17 and 175.25: (a) No person may use a recreational vessel unless at least one PFD of the following types is on board for each person: (1) Type I PFD; (2) Type II PFD; or (3) Type III PFD.

The relevant portions of the exemptions under 17 are:

A Type V PFD may be carried in lieu of any PFD required under §175.15, provided:

(1) The approval label on the Type V PFD indicates that the device is approved:

(i) For the activity in which the vessel is being used; or

(ii) As a substitute for a PFD of the Type required on the vessel in use;

(2) The PFD is used in accordance with any requirements on the approval label; and

(3) The PFD is used in accordance with requirements in its owner's manual, if the approval label makes reference to such a manual.

And

Canoes and kayaks 16 feet in length and over are exempted from the requirements for carriage of the additional Type IV PFD required under §175.15.

and

Racing shells, rowing sculls, racing canoes and racing kayaks are exempted from the requirements for carriage of any Type PFD required under §175.15.

The exemption under 25 refers to state requirements that children wear a PFD.

Ed Lawson

[risingsn]

The following language from the CFR appears to provide a basis for their belief.

TITLE 33 - NAVIGATION AND NAVIGABLE WATERS

CHAPTER I - COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

SUBCHAPTER S - BOATING SAFETY

PART 175 - EQUIPMENT REQUIREMENTS

subpart b - PERSONAL FLOTATION DEVICES

175.15 - Personal flotation devices required.

Except as provided in 175.17 and 175.25: (a) No person may use a recreational vessel unless at least one PFD of the following types is on board for each person: (1) Type I PFD; (2) Type II PFD; or (3) Type III PFD.

The relevant portions of the exemptions under 17 are:

A Type V PFD may be carried in lieu of any PFD required under §175.15, provided:

(1) The approval label on the Type V PFD indicates that the device is approved:

(i) For the activity in which the vessel is being used; or

(ii) As a substitute for a PFD of the Type required on the vessel in use;

(2) The PFD is used in accordance with any requirements on the approval label; and

(3) The PFD is used in accordance with requirements in its owner's manual, if the approval label makes reference to such a manual.

And

Canoes and kayaks 16 feet in length and over are exempted from the requirements for carriage of the additional Type IV PFD required under §175.15.

and

Racing shells, rowing sculls, racing canoes and racing kayaks are exempted from the requirements for carriage of any Type PFD required under §175.15.

The exemption under 25 refers to state requirements that children wear a PFD.

Ed Lawson

Two things

-Their have been threads on NSPN that included racers dying wo/PFD

-A piece of kit that s worth a million $$$... A large mesh kit bag. I have a large one from NRS. it hold everything, really...PFD, tow, igloo, med kit, pump, hypothermia kit, boots, spare tops etc, spray deck, bail out bag, Mylar bivi, storm cag plus misc stuff I can't think of @ the moment (my guess is it weighs about #300) . Of course it is to short to put my paddles in & yes, much to my embarrassment I have forgotten them or brought halves to different paddles

Bottom line it is all about risk assessment. If you look at all of the kayak fatality reports that come across the NSPN site & other places I would say that they are all caused by poor risk assessment & over confidence.

Well, theirs my 2 cents ($3.50 w/ the coming inflation)

[jason]

Had it been a missing spray skirt, however, we probably would have gone home without paddling.

Without my PFD I would have gone home. As long as I had my long boat I don't see the spray deck as a show stopper.

-Jason

[tyson]

A PFD is for (1) general swimming support; (2) specifically to keep you afloat and breathing if unconscious, and (3) for the pockets and things you can hang on it.

The PFD's that most of us wear will not achieve item (2). They are not designed to keep you face up.

In any context that you would freely and safely swim, I see no reason that a PFD is needed for kayaking.

[leong]

The following language from the CFR appears to provide a basis for their belief.

Racing shells, rowing sculls, racing canoes and racing kayaks are exempted from the requirements for carriage of any Type PFD required under §175.15.

Ed Lawson

Hmm, I define both of my kayaks as racing kayaks so I guess I'm okay with the CG w/o a PFD; however, I usually wear a PFD of some kind. Now to the definition of a "racing kayak" ...

[djlewis]

The following language from the CFR appears to provide a basis for their belief.

...

Except as provided in 175.17 and 175.25: (a) No person may use a recreational vessel unless at least one PFD of the following types is on board for each person

(Emphasis added) Yes, I did not have one on board either. But frankly, the on board requirement is for boats that will take at least a minute or two to capsize and sink, giving the passengers time to don their PFD. As we know, that's not usually possible with kayak-based scenarios -- you'd have to hang onto the PFD in a capsize and then put it on in the water.

I assessed the various factors and circumstances, all explicated in this thread by others, and concluded that, while not having a PFD did reduce my margin of safety, it was not that bad. Frankly, comparing my decision to the decision to paddle alone in ~any~ conditions, my margin reduction was a lot less.

--David.

[jdkilroy]

djlewis said:

"Had it been a missing spray skirt, however, we probably would have gone home without paddling."

Interesting; I found myself at the Blackburn without a spray deck and decided to paddle it anyway.

Its all in what you're comfortable with. Its going through the thought process that is important; taking the time to do your own risk assessment before you launch.

Jon