BigBird

13 hours ago, EEL said:

Big Bird:

You said the Explorer would tip over when parallel to boat wake, but I assume it did not, the boat wake was indeed a modest non-breaking wave, and you were tense trying to keep the boat level/under control.  Based on this comment, my $.02 is stop thinking about buying a boat. The issue is unrelated to the stability or lack thereof in the Explorer and/or Chepeague in my opinion. Instead, invest is a few quality lessons, arrange a day's demo paddle at MICKO, get a decent paddler to accompany you, and take one of the suggested boats, Roany Surf seems a solid choice, around Peaks I. when conditions are modest.  Maybe take the Explorer then the Romany.  I'm not saying you won't end up with a new boat or that a good boat will not make paddling more fun and assist in dealing with more textured water.  Just the boat is not always the cure, and the Explorer is such a solid boat that I doubt it was the problem under the conditions you described.  

Ever ride your bike though a deep sandy patch where it squirms and slithers about?  I bet you learned not to fight the bike, but let it move about,, and ride it out by staying over it and and only dialing in some control when needed.  Essentially the same in a kayak when the water gets textured.

Ed Lawson

 

 

Thank you Ed for your thoughtful feedback.  You are correct, I've never dumped the Explorer in boat wake and I've had tense moments trying to keep that from happening, especially on one trip in Plum Island Sound where I was riddled with huge motor yachts making their way from the Merrimac River out to the ocean in the same narrow channel that I thought would be a nice place to paddle lol  I've paddled on several nspn outings a couple of years ago and had instruction from Rob, Cathy, Bob L., Jonathan, and Kevin.  All were excellent teachers and taught me skills to relax my legs to not lock up the boat in tense moments.  I learned to edge the Explorer and was so hopeful that I could grow into that boat.  As I said earlier, the reality is I don't get out very often (<10x a year) and probably only paddled the NDK on a dozen day trips.  In the end, it just wasn't fun anymore.  But, that's more on me than on the boat.  I know the NDK Explorer is well lauded as one of the most stable expedition boats ever made.

2 hours ago, Brian Day said:

Hi Bob,

The Delphin is so stable for a few reasons. First, it is flatish under the seat, and this is a big help. Next, the widest point of the hull is just behind the cockpit, which means you're effectively sitting in the widest part of the hull. I think the rocker in the boat helps as well, but can't say for sure.

The Delphin isn't a smaller Scorpio. It's much more maneuverable. Very playful, fun day paddling and weekend boat. About as fast an an NDK Romany.

You would probably be OK with the stability of a Scorpio MV. It, too is more stable than an Explorer.

My concern about going to the HV Scorpio is that it will be more difficult to edge than an MV at your weight. Also harder to roll. It's really a boat that starts for paddlers at about 200#.

It's worth working on this. Coaching and practice can help you to relax in whatever boat you choose.

Brian

Thanks again Brian about your insights to the P&H boats.  It's very helpful.  In addition to day touring, I'd love to aspire to learn how to surf which is another reason I'm considering the Delphin.  I have plans to demo one later in the week.

20 hours ago, rveelenturf said:

I saw, "I'm 6'0" 188 lbs with a 32" inseam if that means something to someone on here." and am compelled to post. I am 6'0" 191 lbs with a 32" inseam.

I have been paddling for 18 years, the last 15 years in a Valley Nordkapp H2O. It is great in rough water and loves to go in a straight line. However, I decided to get a second, more versatile and comfortable (for my build) kayak.

Since a new composite boat is a significant investment, I considered virtually all of the highly regarded boats. I eventually ordered a Current Designs Prana with a "Heavy Water" layup. The normal fiberglass layup is 52 lbs, I expect mine is 5 lbs more. It is available in Kevlar at 48 lbs. The fit of the kayak, a major factor in my choice, is outstanding (again, for my build). I have not added any foam or made any other changes. The Prana has a lot of leg and foot room for the paddler, yet the cockpit is not huge. The knee position is higher, which I find very comfortable. I believe the slightly surf-ski-like knee position is a concern for some, but I have not found it to be a problem. It is a well engineered and sleek design. It does surf more than the Nordkapp, but that is desirable at times. It is far more stable than one would expect given its 21" beam. Due to COVID-19, I have been paddling it solo on Narragansett Bay this summer. Coming from a Nordkapp, I would not call the Prana tippy at all. However, I would not call an NDK Explorer tippy either.

The shorter (16 ft) Current Designs Sisu has a wider beam and I expect handles even better, but I was more interested in long distance efficiency.
 

Thank you very much for sharing your experience given our similar height, weight, etc.  I've never paddled a Nordkapp, but I've heard those are notoriously tippy so if you've paddled that boat for the last 15 years I'd say we are in very different categories in terms of skill level!  As I said, I'm at the level where an NDK explorer feels tippy to me.  I've had friends who are not kayakers "try" the NDK at Walden Pond and they said it was tippy.  Another friend took it out into Casco Bay and tipped it over within 10 minutes in calm seas.  So everyone who is an experienced kayaker says the NDK is a VERY stable boat, it just wasn't the case for me or friends of mine who are not experienced sea kayakers.

1 hour ago, BethS said:

Before you buy; I will put in another vote for the NDK Romany Surf. Try one out, it’s an excellent stable high performance boat that you won’t grow out of. It’s a bit on the slow side, but not bad, much better than the Scorpio or the Delphin, and is extremely solid and maneuverable in rough water. At 16 feet it is not too big or heavy either.
 

Your wife probably had an easier time of it because she most likely is shorter than you and has a lower center of gravity, so any boat will feel more stable for her.

Keep at it, and in a few more trips you will be feeling far more solid regardless of the boat you buy.

Thanks for the recommendation Beth.  I had written off NDK because of the Explorer, but it looks like the Romany Surf might be a good candidate.  Challenge is I'm looking to buy used and these don't seem to come up for sale very often.

9 hours ago, jonathanoltz said:

Bob welcome back!  Glad to see you are wanting to get back out again.  I just sent you over a email, take a look and let's touch base!

Thanks Jonathan!  I'll look for your email.

On 7/25/2020 at 7:45 AM, Brian Day said:

 

I worked for P&H from 2009-2017 and ran US/Canada distribution for a few years, so I can answer Big Bird's questions on the Delphin. I think he'll find the Delphin 155 to be significantly more stable than the Explorer. Probably not as stable as the new, super size Scorpio, but still rock solid. Cetus HV is VERY stable. Virgo is new and something I haven't paddled. It's a little smaller and rounder than the Delphin. Probably not as stable.

On 7/25/2020 at 8:20 AM, Brian Day said:

I think you probably got spooked and locked up the boat with your legs. Pretty normal. When things get spicy and the boat starts jumping around it's natural to grab onto the thighbraces and try to keep yourself upright. This actually makes you less stable. Locks your upper and lower body together and makes it harder to stay in balance over the boat. If I were to guess I would say this is what happened. Certainly you aren't too heavy for the boat.

Thanks Brian for the excellent feedback!  I'm excited to hear that you think I will find the Delphin to be significantly more stable than the Explorer.  Is that because of the flat hull beneath the seat?   Also, can you explain the target audience for the Delphin say compared to the Scorpio?

You're absolutely spot-on regarding locking up the boat w my legs.  I just couldn't get myself to relax in the NDK.  Even in relatively modest boat wake, if I was parallel to the waves, I could easily tip that boat over.  In the Scorpio HV, paddling through the same parallel boat wake was just relaxing and even dare I say fun?

In that harrowing experience I mentioned off the Maine Coast that led me to sell the NDK, my wife was paddling along side in the same confused seas in the Lincoln and she was having a ball while I was struggling to stay upright.  It just took all the fun out of it for me.

I'm not trying to over think this and I really do appreciate everyone's comments.  I probably should just go buy the Scorpio HV and figure out a better system to get that beast on and off the SUV.  It's just that I really don't need a multi-day sea touring kayak like the Scorpio so I'm really hoping the Delphin is a baby Scorpio HV in terms of almost equal stability, but at 15.5' is ideal for day touring, and less weight to transport?

Also, several years ago my wife and I rented kayaks from a small shop in Rockport (I believe).  We went out on the ocean on a nice day with a tour guide.  I believe their entire fleet was Wilderness Systems.  I don't recall the exact boats we were put in, but I'm guessing they were something like the Tsunami or Tempest.  Narrow beams ~21.5" and 16' - 17' long and they never felt tippy.  Is there something about the hull shape of the WS kayaks that causes the rental shops to use them knowing many beginners will be trying sea kayaking for the first time?  Since my friend just bought a Tempest, I'll have to give that one a go.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences and providing feedback.  I've paddled with some of you in the past and enjoyed it immensely (Rob & Cathy, Jonathan, Bob L., and others).  The reality is I don't live that close to the ocean (roughly an hour), and have limited time to go sea kayaking raising 3 teens.  My wife and I get the most sea kayaking in for one week every August while camping up at Hermit Island in Maine w the kids.  During this week, I paddle every day and she gets out a few times.  We just enjoy day touring and sightseeing.  The rest of the year, we're lucky if we make it to the ocean at all and usually end up at Walden Pond just to paddle and cool off.

With that said, I'm looking to add another boat to the stable so we can kayak together (down to just the Lincoln now) and also go with a couple of friends who are beginner kayakers like me who recently bought used boats off CL (wilderness systems tempest 17' and necky chatham 17') so I want to choose something that I can grow into, enjoy day touring with my wife, and keep up with the guys on an ocean paddle.  

I'm 50 y.o. with the flexibility of the Tin Man and a lifetime of injuries from sports that I'm starting to pay for now.  I'm 6'0 188lbs with a 32" inseam if that means something to someone on here.  I still can ski the bumps in the woods all day long chasing my 17 yr old son (ok, well at least until noon) and enjoyed triathlon for several years.  For the cyclists in the group, I ride a Cervelo S5 and I enjoy going fast.  In other words, I'm not a couch potato so not sure why I have such horrible balance sitting on a balance beam (how the NDK felt)?  Perhaps it's just the irrational fear of going overboard and not being able to get back in the boat?  I do agree that if I could learn how to roll, I would probably be more open to getting back into an Explorer

Hello!  It's been some time since I've visited here, but the sea is calling me again.  I have an issue with feeling stable in a kayak in the ocean.  I know much of this is me and not the boat.  However, in some boats, I feel the level of stability I crave, while in others I feel like I will tip over at any moment.

The NDK Explorer (21.5" beam) is legendary for it's stability (as I've read) yet I could never feel comfortable in that boat.  The slightest lean the wrong way and I was doing a half roll.  I'm a rookie so I never figured out how to properly brace or get to the pool sessions to learn how to roll.  I surmise that if I knew how to brace and roll, my fear would go away?  Needless to say, after a harrowing experience in a storm on the Maine Coast, I sold that boat 2 summers ago.

I still have a Lincoln Chebeague which is a total joy to paddle.  High level of primary stability and secondary, but a bit short for longer ocean paddles at speed.  The beam on this boat is 24".

I demo'd a series of P&H boats after I sold the NDK and the boat I loved was the P&H Scorpio HV with a 24" beam.  Felt rock solid stable while the MV felt less so (narrower beam).

I've heard people say on this forum that beam width doesn't determine stability, but rather hull shape does?  If this is true, then what hull shape am I looking for that will give me confidence inspiring primary stability with solid secondary to allow me to learn and grow with the boat without putting the fear of God in me out in the ocean?

I'm looking to get into another boat and with Covid, I can't easily demo.  While I love the Scorpio HV it's a beast to get on and off the SUV and I'm not doing any overnight paddles.  I like the looks of the new Virgo in terms of beam width (23"), length, and weight but will it provide confidence-inspiring stability?  Also considering a Delphin 155 (22.5" beam), but I'm concerned this boat will feel like I'm back in my NDK?

Appreciate your advice.

This is great Bill - I signed up for a couple of dates.

I was at Walden this afternoon paddling along when a loon came up out of nowhere!  Still there for now.

I wasn't able to attend the workshop, pool, or lake sessions, but I joined the group for the ocean paddle in Marble Head.  It was awesome!  There were 17 of us and plenty of support from all of the volunteers.  I satisfied myself that I've got the first part of the roll down as I was the only one to get wet that day.  As is sometimes the case in these situations, my skirt didn't quite release as fast as I expected (sorry Kevin for the mild heart attack), but Kevin, Al, and Alex quickly went to work and did an expert rescue and it felt like I was barely in the 55 deg water.   Got to test out my dry suit and it worked - I was warm and dry.  Can't emphasize enough the need to dress for water temp, not air temp!

This is a great group of folks and can't thank Kevin and all of the others who volunteered their time to help us newbies out!  Looking forward to paddling with you again and working on the second half of that roll

-Bob D.

Would love to join you all, but can't make it this Sunday.  Will be there for Pavilion!  If someone wants to come get a boat and gear from me, you're welcome to borrow it.

Thanks Kevin - I'm interested in this.

Thanks Pru!  Sent you a PM.

Hi Rob,

Is there an instructor at these pool sessions to teach one how to roll or is it simply pool time for folks to work on their own stuff without instruction?

Thanks,

Bob D.

Thanks Rob and Cathy for a great paddle!  The world of CAM and sea kayaking in general is still new to me so I really learned a lot from the discussion of tides, current, wind, channel crossing, etc.  Circumnavigating New Castle and playing in the current under the bridge was a blast.  Great meeting all of the other members too.  Hope to join you guys for the next one!

Sounds good.  I'll pm you my info for the float plan.

Thanks Rob - this looks like a great trip.  Are you expecting this to be an all day paddle?  Do you have a ballpark return time?

I'm interested in joining you guys, but I don't want to hold anyone back.  Is this trip appropriate for beginners?

Thanks Rob.

Thanks Josko for the invite!  My window isn't big enough to get down to Woods Hole on Saturday, but it sounds like a great paddle!

If anyone knows how I can renew my membership, please let me know.  When I add it to cart, it just gives that wheelie thing over and over.

Was looking to get a paddle in near Plum Island (Pavilion Beach) or Lane's Cove on Saturday morning.  Are there any planned paddles for this weekend?  Don't want to go out alone.

Thanks Ed and gyork!  I'm going to order one.

Hi folks,

Want to add a keel strip to my new-to-me boat.  Has anyone used a product like Keeleasy or Keelgard?  Looks like they are vinyl and DIY.

Thanks!

Thanks folks - I didn't see any replies on Sunday am so we just loaded up the yaks (for Pintail) and ventured West. We ended up at Tully Lake in Athol - it was just what we were looking for. Nice lake with several islands to paddle around and explore.

Going to be out in the Sturbridge area tomorrow and was looking for an interesting place to paddle? Anywhere along the MA Pike from Sturbridge back towards 495 would work. Up towards Rt 2 Amherst would work too. Thanks!