tyson

Hmm. From the pictures of the Bullitt K-2 racing kayak (see http://www.westsideboatshop.com/html/Kayaks/HiPoTouring/Bullitt.htm) it sure looks like this tandem has very little rocker compared to a traditional sea kayak. Also, since the water-line length (23 ft.) is only 6-inches less than the overall length (22.5 ft.), it looks like most of the hull out at the ends is in the water.

I am referring to the shape of the hull below the waterline only. Some boats have a keel that is very flat for most of their length and then bend up more sharply upward at the ends. Others have a keel line that curves upward more progressively starting near the middle of the boat. These have less draft near the ends. The advantage of this is to reduce wetted surface area. Having the keel go deep (relatively) into the water where there is little beam, results in wetted surface area, but no much buoyancy.

If you look very carefully at a modern performance hull, you'll see that though the water line goes all the way to the ends, there is very little draft near the ends compared with many recreational boats and some conventional sea kayaks. ...even if the rec/conventional boat has a bunch of hull that hangs out over the front above the water line.

If I've failed to paint a useful picture, I'll try to come up with some graphics.

Cheers!

Ty

Sounds like a plenty wild place.

I'm curious about the tandem, rudder etc. Wondering rudder up or down?

(I think I asked much about skegs a year or so ago)

Reason I'm asking this time is that there have been times when the force of the water on one of our boats (the tandem) has been stronger or almost stronger than my legs. That boat in particular has the largest

rudder of any boat I've padded. Occasionally I think of reducing the size of it but really don't know if that would just be a lesson in futility.

Our tandem has no keel (round hull) and lots of rocker below the water line. ...or very little hull in the water out at the ends. Its tracking is horrible. This is typical with racing hulls and why racing hulls typically have rudders. The boat is manageable with the rudder up, but a lot of effort goes into steering instead of paddling. This is particularly frustrating when trying to stay in sync with my partner.

Though our boat is light, with two people in it,spaced apart as we are, the inertia around the yaw axis is considerable. That combined with the boats mild tendency to veer off course (instead of track) makes paddling it with the rudder up quite frustrating.

When trying to maneuver in place or when I'm concerned about damaging the rudder, I raise it. Otherwise, its normally down. This is true even when surfing. Using the rudder lets me steer the boat while putting in good strong forward strokes to catch the wave.

I've long been tempted to try taping on a little bit of keel at the back of the boat to improve its tracking and see if I can go without the rudder. I hate rudders. I hate rudder pedals taking up space in the cockpit. I hate the rudder and its control horns catching on things. I hate worrying about breaking the rudder. I hate pulling it up. I hate putting it down. ...but I've not yet done that experiment and in spite of the rudder, I enjoy our fast tandem and so use it anyway.

I've never had trouble with the forces on the rudder pedals so long as the rudder is all the way down. It may be worth noting that our rudder doesn't sweep or extend back. It is a tall, narrow vertical SmartTrack (sp?) blade.

Doug, I've played with putting the rudder part way down. The result is VERY heavy rudder forces. When the rudder is fully down, the moment arm is very short. When the rudder is pulled up a little, it moment arm gets much longer. Additionally, on a long boat, it doesn't take much swell/wave to cause the rudder to no longer be in the water at all. IMHO, put it all the way down, or raise it completely.

it's funny...i thought you guys knew greg and greg thought you knew me!

Well, we had met everyone at least once before...

but it was fine and fun and we all came back with a giggle.

It was, we did. ...and I've figured out the fit/ergonomics problem with me and the boat that resulted in a broken back band that day.

have you been there on the ebb? it's quite a different experience.

It was early ebb on the reef when my back band broke. ...but regardless, it wasn't looking like top notch conditions that day. Its on our list to get out there again when things are hopping a bit more. Someday I'd like to see The Race, but as you've said, its a good bit of paddling just to get there.

personally i think fishers is a place that you should only paddle with a very, very competent group, ...

Then WTF were you doing out there last year with a couple of newbies in a racing tandem?!

...turned out to be mild conditions that day.

In my experience, its not so much the program as spending time on the water with the best instructors.

Absolutely! I have been very pleased with the money I've spent getting instruction and encourage others to also do so. It is also worth noting that there are some very good instructors that are part of this group. ...you are likely to find some of them at the CAM workshops.

Here's a Link!

$15/year, less than I spend on beer after a typical paddle.

Easy to join. I'm a bit biased but to non-members I would say that these sessions alone would be worth the yearly membership fee.

Agreed!

"wine does more than milton can to justify god's way to man"

if it's heady enough for theological discourse, maybe it'd even bring kayakers and jet skiers together.

Kayakers and jet skiers?! WOw! Now that is ambitious! I was thinking only of bringing this group of kayakers together.

(I almost posted with a type-O that spelled 'bringing' as 'brining'. Appropriate?)

Also I think there is a huge difference between a passive impact and an active impact ...

As do I, however:

There is more of them than there is of us and the "winner" won't be determined by reason and logic. Government doesn't work that way.

Also, many people _LIKE_ that noise. They like that smell too. That is a large part of what draws people to NASCAR races. If NASCAR were to switch to electric vehicles that were higher performance than the dinosaurs they drive now but lacked the noise and smell of "performance", the franchise would die. This is readily acknowledged by Formula 1 also.

I see a similar battle between snowmobilers and backcountry skiers. The skiers (I'm one of them) hate the noise and smell. Additionally the snowmobiles ruin the snow. The snowmobilers love the noise and smell. ...and they are well organized. Fortunately, there are trails where they are allowed (good for them) and trails where they are not (good for me).

My point? What is good, what is bad, what should be banned is a subjective opinion. Encouraging us vs. them instead of figuring out how they can have some space and we can have some space will be a loosing battle because we live in a land of tyranny of the majority.

...its not about logic or reason.

Cheers!

Ty ...who thinks this conversation would be much more fun face to face w/beer or wine.

My pirate duck could take his ship any day...

The difference is that the freedoms enjoyed by kayakers do not impinge on the freedom (freedom from noise, visual and atmospheric pollution) of others ... and even if they had a higher/accident rate I dont know of any case where a kayaker has caused the death of somebody else.

Barry.

Oh, but kayakers do impinge on others freedoms. It impinges on their freedom to "open it up" and feel the wind in their hair. Kayakers may not cause deaths of others, but they do cause their own deaths and we must protect them from that! They also cause expensive rescue missions and accidents when they get in the way of a power boaters that can't see them! That is why many people don't like kayakers and do everything they can to restrict their freedoms.

Please note that I am playing devils advocate here. The point isn't about kayaks vs. power boats. It is about reasonable balance of freedoms and respecting others freedoms instead of all out war. There is more of them than there is of us and the "winner" won't be determined by reason and logic. Government doesn't work that way.

Cheers!

Ty

Tyson, I watched your attached clip (above) then went on a tangent.

This really is a bit over the top as a political message relating to boating but I felt it was a good take off of where you were going about peoples rights.

I agree that the link/videos are a bit over the top for this forum, but I hope that my text was appropriate. We need to lobby to ensure that kayakers have the freedom and opportunity to enjoy our sport. ...but in doing so we should not try to eliminate someone else's sport. On the next round, we may be the some else.

Cheers!

Ty

Can't say I'd have much problem with this part of the legislation.

I'd suggest being very careful about that. It would be very easy to convince the Joe/Jane Public that kayaking has a higher death rate and that kayaks are what should be more heavily regulated. When you try to take an other man's sport, he's likely to try an take yours. More broadly, if you believe in freedom, you have to support the freedom of others, not just yourself. The place of policy is to maintain opportunity. As kayakers, we may work to have a place that we can safely kayak without getting run over. ...but we still need to have places for the power boats to play also.

In NH, they have set a maximum speed of 45(?) mph got all boats. NH has no larger lake that is more appropriate for the use of high speed boats. I don't have one and don't want one, but others do. It may be appropriate to restrict speeds on some areas of the lake, but it is draconian to restrict the entirety of the states largest lake.

If you want support for your freedom, you need to support the freedom of others.

LINK REMOVE BY MODERATOR

When wearing wetsuits, do you soak them before you get in the kayak, or do you try to stay as dry as possible for as long as you can?

I typically start my paddling with a few rolls.

Also, while each needs to reach their own conclusion, it you're not dressed to be reasonably comfortable in the water, you should think hard about how you're dressed. If you're trying to dress light for comfort, then be prepared to be VERY uncomfortable if you end up in the water. That is your trade-off and no pre-paddle prep will change it.

I typically dress for water temp and submerse as needed if the air/sun is too warm. ...but there is often still some amount of trade and balance needed.

Cheers!

Ty

[...] If I go solo do I still need to have a beach briefing?

HURRAH FOR Anne Gobi/D - Spencer who said "At some point, enough is enough, and we allow adults to make some decisions."

... funny that tandems would be exempt!

Our tandem is 23'. Some solo racers and surf skis exceed 20'.

I just came across this in Gizmag.

Looks simple. ...but not sure if its effective for those what might need it.

Cheers!

Ty

I honestly believe that if more people gave winter paddling a try, they'd be out there with us. It's a lot like skiing. You dress appropriately for the conditions.

I am certain that this is true. The only problem is that winter paddling happens during the same time of year as winter skiing! ...I can paddle during the summer, but backcountry skiing seems to suffer a bit more than paddling without snow.

...expect to be headed up Washington this weekend.

Cheers!

Ty

I am Greenland paddle in a rudder boat.... (a collective gasp can sometimes heard)

You should see what people think when you show up for some surf or rock play in a 23ft tandem (almost) racer with a rudder and paddled with sticks.

Cheers!

Ty

Whoa! Whoa! WHOA!! ...didn't you just recently do that?!

These are not Greenland rolls (for the most part) as most are done wrong and/or mislabeled.

Nancy,

Thank you for the post. That is what I suspected, but didn't feel sufficiently confident to speak up.

Cheers!

Ty

...and bottom line, people will still do stupid things and some will eventually die as a result...for cryin' out loud let's not try to outlaw darwin

I've been looking for a stowable cart to replace my folding PaddleBoy stern cart that has hard wheels and does not fit inside my kayak.

Thus far, PaddleBoy makes the only carts that are quick and easy to mount and stay put. They also offer a variant with air inflated, removable tires.

Ty

The wag bags are approved for landfill. I think it is because the stuff/gel is supposed to neutralize some of the "hazards". Where do you dispose of these zip-locks?

Cheers!

Ty

In the spirit of full disclosure, I should add that size may matter here. My 5'8", 145 lbs. may give me some advantage over the 6'2, 220 lbs. ex-linebackers among us, at least in this one instance.

Emilie seems to just climb up the side of her Greenland with no effort to balance it, as if it were on dry ground.