subaruguru

Hi Scott, I was aware of the Lendal system, but didn't like the idea of increased swing weight and theoretical loss of rigidity with a 4 pc system...or maybe just their prices? I use an Epic adjustable length-lock mid-wing once in awhile, and do like the free adjustability of hand placement, but rarely change grip once I've dialed in the shaft length. But that's maybe a consequence of the more fixed wing-stroke geometry too, I suppose. I was going to bring up the business of increased efficiency (+5% claimed) through use of a wing paddled in its inverted "V" stroke, and how the increased stroke length (hypotenuse of triangle) requires a MODERATE shaft/paddle length, not a really short one, as the stroke flattens a bit at the end as it lowers angle and requires sufficient spoon length to stay submerged. Hence wing paddles tend to be long and narrowish, more like a low-angle touring blade than a high-angle short fatty. Nonetheless I've been told that ALL the wing-racers seem to fall into a 215-218 cm length. I guess a 210 setting compromises the "V" geometry and thus overall efficiency too much? It'll be interesting to see which of my paddles (Ikelos, Cypress or Mid-Wing) I end up using the most. CRCK suggests that I use the wing to REALLY get my Force 5 up to speed for passage-making. Hmmm....

I wish that paddle length specs were a bit more complex, stating the SHAFT length and then the SPPON length...and then perhaps SPOON surface area for a power estimate. Using simple TOTAL length can be deceiving, as effective mechanical leverage cannot easily be estimated, the "fulcrum" being centered on the MIDlength of the paddle spoon, not its end or throat. My Werner examples: started with a 230cm bent Kalliste (low angle, long spoon); found that a 220cm Ikelos (high angle) uses the same bent shaft geometry, including EXACTLY the same shaft length. Because of the much taller spoons (larger total surface area) of the latter the stroke effort is much greater, even though the spoon midpoint is slightly closer to the paddler. Temdonitis sets in once in awhile, so I found that the same bent shaft length with the smaller high angle spoons exists in the CYPRUS 215cm. Now the paddling body geometry is identical in all three paddles, as the shafts are clones, but the efforts vary both because of longer and taller spoons. If I wanted to preserve identical total length I would have gotten a 220cm Cyprus, and achieved lower force because the spoons are smaller...BUT the hand positions would have been further apart because the SHAFT is now longer! So I chose to have shaft-clones and just get smaller (and shorter) spoons.... It's easy to suggest getting 210-215cm paddles for high angle supposed "improved efficiency", but this argument only has validity if the spoons aren't changed. In practice, most high angle spoons are taller and not as long, thus automatically resulting in a total length spec that's shorter. If someone requires (or prefers) a lower paddling angle, then the quicker immersion of the total spoon offered by a long thin spoon (GP is the ultimate?!) like the Epic Relaxed Tour or Werner Kalliste would require a fairly long length in order to generate some power. If a too short low angle paddle is selected the shaft may be simply too short, as the spoons are quite long. (Again, Kalliste 230 = Ikelos 220 = Cyprus 215 in shaft geometry; force required (mechanical effort) is more correlated with spoon surface area than with the spoon midpoint lengths away from the paddler, but BOTH need to be considered when selecting a paddle. You should know the spoon geometry, and then by subtracting it from the total paddle length arrive at shaft length, critical for equalizing curves in bent-shafts. A 230 Cyprus is harder to paddle than a 230 Kalliste, even though its spoons are smaller in surface area, simply because the CENTER (midlength) of the shorter spoons is farther away from the paddler, effectively increasing effort required. So one reasons that getting a shorter total length results in less effort and coincidentally provides a higher angle geometry. But it's not that simple. I suppose that the best specs would include shaft length, spoon length, and total surface area. One could then calculate total EFFECTIVE length as the sum of the shaft length and the two spoon midpoints (equal to one spoon length). So adding the shaft length to ONE spoon length gives you the total lever arm pair length...useful in asessing paddle angle. One then picks the spoon area appropriate to power/fatigue issues. Of course the same results can be approached by subtracting spoon lengths from total paddle lengths when attempting to normalize shaft length (and bent geometry), but then the effective lever lengths will not automatically equalize as the spoon midpoints are not identical. But one finalizes paddle decisions empirically anyway, so the differences in calculation schemes aren't that critical. It'd just be easier to select a shaft length and spoons separately, even though mistakes would be made and manufacturers would pull their hair out for awhile.... One buys pants by inseam length and shoes by foot length...not by total waist to toe total length, eh? Ok, the analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but you get the idea. I suppose only 3 or 4 piece paddle makers would find the individual shaft and spoon lengths specs attractive for marketing ease, but it'd still be useful to spec two-piece paddles that way as well, especially for those of us who want our hand positions uniform on bent-shafts using different spoons for different conditions or fatigue levels. I would suggest that Mark start with a 215-220 Kalliste or similar low angle paddle if his shoulders require a low angle, or a 210-215 Cyprus (again, same shaft length, different spoon length, but pretty equal force requirement).

True guffaws for the day. Thanks, Rick!

Maybe they like the crunchiness of composites instead of a plastic-wrapped sandwich?

I'll be comparing three paddles' (Ikelos, Cyprus, Epic mid-wing)effects on my recently-worsened tendonitis 4-6PM. Warm place to change afterwards, inc GREAT homemade pea soup! Cheers.

CRCK has a couple of Shadows for sale. Maybe he can borrow one?

Me too, Suz.

Drysuits allow a much wider latitude of undies choices, so don't sweat it (npi). I found a one-piece by Andy's Undies on eBay that combines Polartec 2 or maybe even 300 (!) with a nylon outer and inner lining AND Thinsulate, with full cuffs. Geez. Guess I'll get to try it in December. Amazing product.

I wouldn't rule the NF Legend out at all, unless there's insufficient leg/boot room, as was the case for me. Responds very nicely, and has decent speed. But you might be tight at 6'0", in which case there are a couple of larger used Shadows around. Great boat for the larger guy...ask Jason about his.

Moi aussi.

Well at least you won't have to knit that pink skirt Kev's been bugging you about, eh?

Kokatat, NRS, Palm and IR all make nuce paddling jackets with neoprene cuffs that if cinched enough are reasonably dry. I have a hooded Palm that I like a lot. The sticky-neoprene neck on my IR Comp drytop seems REALLY dry, so if IR is willing to make a custom drytop using this material on the cuffs it might be worth a shot...albeit a pricey one as the Comp lists for $300.

I punted on my usual Subie shopping day today, as I've 10 stuffed around here, so I may be up for it. Let me know. 781 483-3922

David, you on for today...INformally? I have that Subie rear cargo mat for you (as well your sponge). I'll probably be on the water by 4:30 as darkness set in yesterday at 6:45. My bulkhead padding's pretty successful (except it's vertical), and seat tweaking's almost done, so I might be a candidate for roll-prep. Cheers.

Nice post, Bob. I find it interesting that adding a thin, high density pad atop a hard seat rear-bottom (sit bones) lessens the fatigue of braced thighs/knees. Still tweaking the OE Impex seat, but getting pretty comfy.

The ghost lives on...at least for me! I was on the Lake yesterday, tweaking the cockpit and getting a loops in. Darkness sets in about 6:45, so I expect to be on the Lake around 4:30 this afternoon. Pavilion sounds great for another day, as I don't have the travel time today.

Hi Brian. My panels are so rough that there's not only drainage around the perimeter but gaps large enough for finger-grabbing whenever the time comes. Hope it drains quickly enough.... Thanks again.

Are you kidding? I barely could reach in far enough to kick the first foam board into place! Used a gallon water jug to tamp in. How the hell does anyone get in there and NICELY excise a bulkhead? Yes, 9" is a lot of lost storage space (Dee), but I'll probably not go camping. Coming Tuesday, Peter?

Got too impatient, so used paddling time (yikes!) to fetch that 2" pink rigid polystyrene foam at the Depot, and roughed-in 4 elliptical platforms, topped with 1/2" minicell, total 8 1/2". Sits vertically, allowing heel-stretch, but might want to build up bottom outsides for 45 degree foot planting? Thanks.

www.foamforyou.com

Read the summer thread about custom and padded out bulkheads, but am left uncertain as to what material to use. My new Force 5 needs about TEN inches of padding, all of which I'm sure needn't be $$ minicell. David mentioned the green floral stuff, but that's woefully hydrophilic (its purpose!), so should I schlep to HD and pile up that pink board, finishing the front with comfy minicell? Or just build up with two 4" minicells and a 2" for footrests, allowing a 2" "valley" in the middle for stretching out? Found a foam manufacturer on eBay who sells large odd-sized scrap(14x28x4, $11; 28x54x2 $21) as well thinner sheets cheaply. They have other foams, too, to possibly use as filler. Search "minicell" and their auctions will come up. Whaddayathink? Lastly, what about angling the foamed surface? 45? Less? Thanks.

'Tsokay, Kev, maybe I'll chaperone...unless they roll away!

6. Now drill new holes in each top flange. 7. Reposition seat in kayak. 8. Mount a nylon washer and rubber grommet on its screw, and insert into a NEW flange hole on either side. Attach its side mate also. Then attach opposide sidewall pair. You now have all four sidewall bolts mounted. 9. Turn the kayak 90 degrees, so that you can attach the large steel washer onto the recessed bolt end without them falling off; add the acorn nut, tightening each a couple of turns by hand. Repeat for the remaining three bolt assemblies. 10. Flip the kayak upright, and now use the 7/16" wrench to hold each acorn nut as you tighten each bolt with a large Philips screwdriver. 11. Reattach the backband hardware or straps as necessary. 12. Sit in the seat to test for squeaks or signs of movement. You may need to add or remove foam padding bits to perfect the new geometry. Im my 06 Force 5, the drilling of new front holes 9/16", and new rear holes 7/16" farther outward resulted in a total of 1 1/8" wider hip room at the top front, 7/8" at the top rear, and widened the lower front "pinchpoint" interwall distance from about 14 5/8" stock to about 15 1/4", or about +5/8", which feels MUCH improved. (+5/8" hip diameter = about 2" circumference (c=3.14 d) ...similar to losing 15-20 lbs! Nice to accomplish this "dieting" in less than an hour AND keep center of gravity low!) Good Luck!

After having been told, perhaps tongue-in-cheek, that Impex designed the Forces for narrow-hipped men, I continued to be chagrinned that their newer, slightly wider 2006 glass seat in my Force 5 was still too narrow at the sidewall hangers, causing pinchpoints at the front of my hips, resulting in diffuse generalized pain throughout my legs and knees. Demos of the 05 Force 4 and 5 with the previous 2005 seat showed that the sidewalls were even tighter (!), as the hangers gently curved inward coming forward...the opposite of braced thighs' requirements. The older seat bottom's rear had a large-radius, relatively imprecise geometry, requiring using the mediocre backband as a brace and butt-locater. Sloppy and imprecise seating. The 06 seat is deeper in the rear, with a smaller radius corner to form the rear wall, defining butt location more securely, and relying less on the imperfect IR back band. Great! However, the now-parallel sidewall hangers were still too narrowly-molded for me, being about 14 5/8" apart a couple inches up off the bottom corner. I immediately thought of splaying apart the sidewalls, redrilling new mounting holes in the top flanges, hoping to gain a bit of width even down at the bottom front "pinchpoint" edges. Danny at Impex suggested that I might break the seat by said mod, and suggested I start over with a custom foam seat. Sigh.... Whereas several websites are eager to show the custom manufacture of minicell seats to only take an hour (or four!), with or without fancy sanding tools, I wanted to investigate other options first. The Kajaksport molded plastic (ABS...car bumper stuff) seats come in three widths, but it's unclear what the dimensions listed apply to, and their websight in the US was down, and I was getting impatient.... I saw a molded VCP foam seat at CRCK, and grabbed one for a quick trial this weekend. So I decided to take out the OE seat. After removing the top 4 sidewall screws, I carefully tried splaying the sidewalls hangers apart, noting that there was enough room under the cockpit and hull width (20.75 spec) to splay each sidewall a good inch or so...without cracking sounds or other signs of undue sress. Hmmmm.... So I removed the seat, noticing that there was plenty of room on the top flanges to drill new holes farther out without compromising strength, as the original holes weren't centered in the flanges, but towards the inner edges. Great! I also noted that about 1/8" of the hip tightness was due to one of the two "forward" holes being drilled closer to the inside edge than the opposite side (or its rear mate!), indicating sloppiness on manufacture. Rather than using a fixture on the seat flanges to drill on, it appears that the seats are perhaps mounted in each kayak, and then the deck's predrilled holes are used as guides to mount the seats, ensuring that they line up. Nice and easy, so long as the sidewalls are splayed equally, eh? Wanting to gain maximal splaying but without stressing the glass seat geometry, ensuring that the largish washers still fit against the sidewall, AND wanting to engineer a bit of "easing" of the sidewall geometry as they came forward, I decided to drill the new FRONT flange holes 9/16" farther outward, whereas the REAR ones 7/16", thus creating a 2x +2/16 = +1/4" taper outward for ease in upper thigh/hip splaying. The reinstallation of the seat went perfectly, and sitting in it resulted in no untoward squeaks, slippage or cracking (!), so I trust that I'm still in the glass seat's new geometry/stress strength zone. So if you have pinch-point hip pain from the Impex seat's sidewall hangers, you MIGHT benefit solely by retrofitting to the 06 better seat. If it's still too tight, try this: RESETTING IMPEX SEAT SIEWALL HANGERS Tools required: Philips screwdriver (large is better) 7/16" wrench for recessed acorn nuts (6-8" offset box-end is best) 5/16" (8mm) drill bit rubber gloves (discovered too late...tiny glass splinters drove me nuts at symphony that night!) Procedure: Prep: set kayak on soft ground or supports, with ability to turn up on edge 90 degrees later. 1. Remove the four top seat anchoring bolts, using wrench on recessed acorn nuts. Each nut and large diameter steel washer will fall onto floor. The upper/outer nylon washer and rubber grommet may stay on the top hole or fall loose. 2. If a backband is attached to the sidewall hangers you can either remove the backband from the sidewalls or unattach it from the deck, if easier. 3. To get an idea of the range of adjustment possibilities, you can flex the sidewall hangers inward or outward...or even move the seat fore and aft, marking drilling points on the flexed flanges with a marker pen through the cockpit holes if you like. 3. Carefully pinch inward one of the sidewalls so that its upper flange may clear the cockpit lip, then lift the seat upward out of the kayak. 4. Set the seat in a reasonably stable place, like plopped into a cardboard box too small for it, etc. 5. Noting the position of the existing sidewall hanger top flange mounting holes, decide where you want to drill new ones. If you want to increase intersidewall distance (loosen your hips), drill new holes farther out on each flange, being careful to keep the distance BETWEEN the NEW holes on each side identical to the old ones. If you wish to move the seat fore or aft there may be enough room on the flange to accomplish this also. Thus it may be possible to BOTH widen the hips AND move the seat a bit fore or aft. Oops! tbc'd!

Rats! Have theatre tix. Where's the put-in?