Pilgrim LV and Avocet LV

[ssmith]

Any views on comparing Pilgrim LV and Valley Avocet LV? I have an Avocet LV and have found it to be a great boat. I tried the Pilgrim LV in the pool and was very impressed with its edging and rolling. It seems to me that it is easier to edge than the Avocet LV. Thanks, Sherry.

[EEL]

Sherry:

When you say easier to edge do you mean you can dial in and hold any amount of heel or do you mean it will heel to a very solid shoulder which is easy to hold? I have heard folks say NDK boats have a very distinct and solid shoulder while "classic" valley boats tend to be more fluid as in no distinct shoulder. I suspect that is why NDK boats tend to be floppers as opposed to logs when it comes to rolling.

I tried a Pilgrim Exped. once and the only thing I noticed was it seemed to have low stern volume or at least a "long/lean" stern. Or at least I thought so since when doing a cowboy re-entry as the boat tilted up quite a bit and that made it rather difficult. Of course might have been due to my being too big for boat. My impression is the Avocet has evenly distributed volume for a fish form boat.

Ed Lawson

[Deb Millar]

I had an AvocetLV and now own a 16' PilgrimLV. While I dearly loved my Valley boat for its speed, maneuverability in rocks and surf, and beautiful lines -- to me, VCP boats are among the prettiest of kayaks -- it didn't fit me all that well, especially in the cockpit.

My PilgrimLV fits me perfectly and I've found it has many, if not all, of the attributes of the AvocetLV. Ed is right about the difference in chines, although I've consistently found both boats easy to edge and therefore to turn.

Sherry, did you paddle the 17'+ PilgrimLV Expedition or the 16' one? I think I'm the only person in the area who has the 16' Pilgrim, but then I could be wrong. My boat is a prototype and was built in 2012. I bought it late last summer from Tom at MIKCO. However, both boats are great.

I should add that I'm a big NDK/SKUK (Sea Kayak UK, the "new" name for Nigel Dennis Kayak) fan as I've owned my share of the brand. However, my husband and I also have a little fleet of Valley boats in our basement. My feeling about kayaks is if it fits you well and does what you want it to do, then that's probably the "right" boat for you.

Hope this helps.

Deb M

[ssmith]

Thanks Deb and Ed.

Re the edging that is probably what I was seeing - it has a distinct edge point which is easy to maintain (at least in a pool). In the Avocet LV I have to work at keeping it on edge. It is the 16 foot (15 and something) that I tried, the smallest, very low volume one with the little key hole cockpit, not the Expedition . Any other thoughts re the comparison? Thanks Sherry..

[EEL]

Sherry:

Cannot comment on the boats personally, but assume they are both very good boats. Despite being described as very low volume, the Avocet LV and no doubt Pilgrim have plenty of volume for short (4 days) camping trips at least when along with another person. So for a small paddler they are very nice sized boats that you can do a great deal with.

Ed Lawson

[Lbeale]

Hi Sherri,

I have a Pilgrim Expedition LV. My boat is a prototype from Tom B who helped design the boat and it was on special order. It has 50/50 layup with custom bulkheads. During Greg's Gale symposium, Nigel told a friend of mine that more boats like mine are being made so there may be more coming to the US in the near future.

The boat handles like no other boat I have had or paddled- it has gotten me out of situations in a blink of an eye. I had my Impex Force 3 for over 7 years and that boat is fine for going fast, getting to where you are going and, expedition camping. It is not necessarily a play boat for rocks and surf. The Impex was not an easy boat to roll but that has more to do with my size/weight -- it was a lot of boat for me to roll.

The Pilgrim is designed more for rolling than the Impex Force 3. It may not be as fast but it has lots of other advantages that the Force 3 does not match. The Pilgrim is designed specifically for the small paddler as opposed to a smaller version of a larger boat.

The Avocet LV felt like paddling a bathtub -- but that happens when I paddle most boats.

Les

[Deb Millar]

Hi Sherry,

I'm in agreement with Les about the PilgrimLV. While I never fit well in the Impex Force3 and thus never really paddled one outside of a demo, I did find my RomanyLV more than suitable in conditions. Being back in a NDK boat is, for me, happiness in fit and function.

The same applies to my PilgrimLV that applies to Leslie's Expedition, except for the layup (mine is all fiberglass and thus heavier) and the length. There is, however, the original Pilgrim 16', which was released in 2009/2010, and the PilgrimLV 16' which Tom Bergh also helped Nigel Dennis design and is the prototype that I have. Both boats look the same and have the small, keyhole opening but the PilgrimLV for "wee(er) folk" is about 1" smaller all around than the original Pilgrim16'. Both boats fit me very well, but the PilgrimLV fit me the best of all, and I don't consider myself to be exactly on the "wee" side.

I was in the pool last night in my PilgrimLV and was finally, after a frustrating four years, rolling on both sides, doing reentry and rolls, and balance braces again. These are things I could always do in my RomneyLV but found a bit more difficult, because of the fit, in the AvocetLV. However, this DOES NOT mean that my issues with the boat will be issues for anyone else. It was just a matter of my body type (I have short legs and a long torso; I'm 5'4") /placement vs the cockpit design.

As a good friend of mine always says: "'There's a boat for every butt'" and I find this to be very true. What works well for me may not work for another person; again, it's all a matter of form and function and what makes you happiest and most comfortable when you paddle.

Deb

Edited March 10, 2014 by Deb M

[Pintail]

Sherry, to confuse matters, if you feel like trying out a Nordkapp LV (come spring), you would be welcome...very playful, very easy to turn on a dime (plenty of rocker)

There are no two ways about it: Valley boats simply <are> the prettiest!

[ssmith]

Thanks very much for the offer to demo the Nordcapp LV - I am thinking it is too big for me - I am looking at the very very small boats - the Pilgrim LV has a smaller beam than the Avocet LV. Sherry.

[EEL]

Sherry:

I don't know what paddling you intend to do or your size, but there are some other small boats although not often seen. The Impex Mystic, the Tahe Greenland, and the CD Rumor and Suka are examples. Some of these have very definite "personalities" and are not fungible. All are good boats.

Might want to think in terms of volume as opposed to beam and length when determining if a boat is low volume, etc. There are full sized touring boats for average sized paddlers that have beams of around 20". Assuming the boat would be used for day and long weekend trips, my guess would be a small paddler (<115) is well served with a boat with a small wetted surface so it is easy to paddle at "club" speeds, has a volume of no more than 250 Liters, and has a proportionately sized cockpit although I think narrow cockpits are generally bad for everyone.

Everyone has their personal opinion on these things, but for a day/weekend boat I like something with a volume of around 275 liters and I'm 5' 10" and 175#. So when I think of a boat for a small paddler, my view of low volume is a little skewed I guess.

Ed Lawson

Edited March 13, 2014 by EEL

[ssmith]

Hi Ed,

I am 5'2" and 105 lb. and my first boat made for small paddlers had so much volume that I floated on top of the water like a bathtub toy making it really hard to handle in big wind. The Avocet LV has been a super boat for me and the Pilgrim LV is really interesting. Sherry