VHF DSC W/ GPS??SH-HX851?

[Paul Sylvester]

I have to update my VHF this season (now) and am considering the Standard Horizon HX 851 with DSC& GPS.

.Have read alot of the old NSPN threads, reviews , etc and being a semi Luddite I am not sure about a few things and want to pick some minds.

1, The GPS stores 200 waypoints and has a navigate to waypoint feature with compass.

Does this mean it would be as usable as a regular GPS? Except that it is dual purpose and the screen my be smaller........

2, Was not looking for a GPS now but figure this might help ease my way into the fray....Would I be better off just getting a GPS and a VHF and keeping them separate?

Realize the battery would drain quickly with it on all the time but I keep mine off alot.

Seems the DSC is worth getting and that puts you into a higher cost and for a few more you can have the GPS.

thanks for any help and advice.

[...]

Paul,

I took a look at the VHF/DSC/GPS on-line that you are thinking of purchasing and it does look like a fine piece of equipment. You are correct, for very little money you can add in the GPS. Regarding your concern for battery life, you can always add the FBA-38 Alkaline Battery Tray as an option and fill it with rechargeable batteries. I would guess you can also turn off the compass feature while using the GPS to add battery life.

The big question is, do you know what you might want to do with the GPS? You might answer that question after you get the GPS?

I do use a VHF and a separate GPS, but that is not always the best option. It does work for me, simply because I have two very specific needs.

1. I want the GPS to assist me in navigating in thick fog. For that, my GPS needed a data chip with detailed nautical charts since I may not always have my waypoints established in the area where I encounter the fog. I do still prefer to use compass and chart to guide me, but after you have been paddling for 20+ minutes in moving water and you still see nothing, taking a glance at the GPS can add some reassurance you are still on track. I would guess the unit you seek may not have access to the charts.

2. I also like paddling in new areas where no one on the team has any knowledge of the area. As I make ready to land on a MITA or MCHT island I like to do a verification on the GPS so I am not landing on someones private island.

If one or both of these uses seem like functions you want your GPS to perform, you might check out any on-line user manuals.

Also keep in mind, if you happen to own an iPhone or equivalent, there is a handy app with both GPS and nautical charts called "Marine Charts, EarthNC". If my memory serves me, Scott Camlin uses this app.

I know most paddlers use their GPS units for many more tasks, but this seems to be enough for me for now.

Hope this helps.

Warren

Edited March 25, 2013 by Warren

[cfolster]

Paul,

What is most important about the unit you're looking at is the GPS-enabled DSC. If you don't already carry a Personal Locator Beacon, this will act like one for you. It has an emergency/distress call feature that will better help the Coast Guard locate you if needed, by transmitting your coordinates so they can navigate to you, and it continues to try for 5 times if not immediately received.

The DSC also has the ability to act more like a two-way radio - without having to pre-arrange a channel to call eachother on. Unfortunately, this is only if you know the other person's number - but I think all radios will eventually have this, and sharing those numbers will become more routine. I think this feature would be great for NSPN paddlers, but it will take some time (years) before everyone has switched over to DSC-enabled radios.

I think that since you were not really looking for GPS, this might be a good start. You can play with those features and see if you like what they add to your navigation abilities and then decide if you want to get a separate unit. In the meantime, you have a radio that provides a very worthwhile safety feature.

[EEL]

Paul:

FWIW, I believe if getting a new radio now it makes a great deal of sense to get a DSC radio as it is the future. All such handheld radios have, or rather should have, a built in GPS for DSC functionality. Non-handheld units often rely on a separate GPS unit. However, the GPS features on a DSC handhelds I have seen are very rudimentary compared to a "normal" GPS unit that folks typically use and I don't believe they should be thought of as a radio/GPS combo unit . That said, if all you wanted to do was play around with a few waypoints, etc. it might fill the bill, but the way they are entered and edited will be clunky. You cannot communicate with the radio via your computer for example and they will need to be entered manually. Personally, I would get a separate GPS. Even a simple $100 one will be far more useful and easy to deal with.

Ed Lawson

[billvoss]

being a semi Luddite I am not sure about a few things and want to pick some minds.

1, The GPS stores 200 waypoints and has a navigate to waypoint feature with compass.

Does this mean it would be as usable as a regular GPS? Except that it is dual purpose and the screen my be smaller........

2, Was not looking for a GPS now but figure this might help ease my way into the fray....Would I be better off just getting a GPS and a VHF and keeping them separate?

From a safety perspective, getting integrated DSC with GPS is definitely the way to go. In the unlikely event someone ever needs to use the radio to send out a MAYDAY call, the integrated GPS may save their life by enabling the DSC portion to send out location information.

Whether having an integrated GPS will satisfy your apparent growing GPS craving will depend on your "semi Luddite" status. I have one very close relative in the "semi Luddite" camp who uses a hand-held GPS only to get coordinates which he then writes down on paper and checks against paper maps. For him it would be fine. I know of other GPS users who hook their GPS up to home computers to enter waypoints for future trips, upload new maps and charts to the GPS, download tracks of previous trips, share that track information on the internet with friends, analyze their track information as performance training data, not to mention use their GPS like a speedometer. If you want to do any of those things, getting a separate dedicated GPS is a much better choice.

Getting both is of course the best of both worlds.

[EEL]

Paul:

Might want to check out the Icom M92D radio as well as it is Icom's DSC handheld unit.. Have no opinion of either.

Ed Lawson

[lhunt]

I agree with the others:

• DSC w/GPS good,
• GPS without computer connection marginal (as a GPS)

Because you specifically mentioned the compass, I did want to add that if the compass is part of the draw you might want to check whether it is a real compass. Many GPS "compasses" work by comparing where you are now with where you were a few seconds ago to determine the direction (so you only get a reading while you are moving). Some, on the other hand, have integral magnetic compasses. While on land, the magnetic compass is useful. While paddling, the magnetic compass is a drawback because it defeats the GPS's ability to keep you on a good ferry angle during a "navigate to waypoint". Sometimes you can disable the magnetic compass above a certain speed (say, 1 mph), giving you the best of both worlds.

However, sending the GPS signal with the distress call, that's good.

-Lisa

[leong]

Paul,

Lisa is right saying, “While paddling, the magnetic compass is a drawback because it defeats the GPS's ability to keep you on a good ferry angle during a "navigate to waypoint"". I was waiting for her to say that and while waiting, I checked the user’s manual. It looks like there’s no problem with the HX 851 because the compass discussed is just a display of a compass rose (oriented according to consecutive GPS fixes). That’s good.

Obviously, the main advantage of this type of VHF is the safety afforded by DSC. That safety feature should override many minor disadvantages of the unit. However, there are two things that may negate the potential safety advantage:

1. Is the unit small enough to fit into a pocket of your PFD or can you wear it some other way? If not, then, when you need it most, you may not be able to send the DSC distress signal (for instance if you do a “combat” wet exit and become separated from the kayak and VHF).
2. The reduced battery time is a potential problem. I usually keep my VHF on during group paddles so I can monitor potential problems from other pod members out of shouting range. If you intend to use it this way then the shorter battery time may run out just when you need the DSC emergency function. In monitor mode my Icom M72 lasts almost and entire season on one battery charge.

-Leon

PS
I’m not sure, but think the unit is no longer waterproof when the alkaline battery tray is used. Of course, you could always use a drybag.

[EEL]

Reduced battery life is a concern, but I seriously doubt the current drain required by the added circuitry for DSC/GPS makes any meaningful difference. Typically, floating units have smaller batteries to reduce weight and that does have a meaningful impact on battery life. For kayakers not sure a floating units is a big deal since they should be tethered. However, floating units is the direction of the market. We are niche users and have to go along with the tide.

It seems to me many new designs have regressed in terms of waterproofness and often radios are no longer waterproof unless the battery is attached and the alkaline trays, when availalble, will not make the radio waterproof even when attached.

Ed Lawson

[EEL]

Well, I am mistaken. The standby drain without GPS is 60ma and with it on is 100ma. Still a small absolute difference compared to drain while receiving and transmitting, but a bigger percentage difference than I expected.

The battery difference compared to a regular unit would seem to account for reduced battery life rating. Floating units tend to be around 1200mAH and regular units are around 1700mAH

[leong]

Well, I am mistaken. The standby drain without GPS is 60ma and with it on is 100ma. Still a small absolute difference compared to drain while receiving and transmitting, but a bigger percentage difference than I expected.

The battery difference compared to a regular unit would seem to account for reduced battery life rating. Floating units tend to be around 1200mAH and regular units are around 1700mAH

The battery of the HX 851 (1150mAH) won’t last as long as the Icom M72 (2000mAH), especially considering the additional drain of the GPS feature. Nevertheless, I’d overweight the DSC safety’s feature a lot for any comparison.

Choosing a DSC capable VHF, consider that Icom’s DSC capable unit (M92D) has a larger battery (1590mAH) and the unit is smaller than the HX 851.

[jason]

The battery of the HX 851 (1150mAH) won’t last as long as the Icom M72 (2000mAH), especially considering the additional drain of the GPS feature. Nevertheless, I’d overweight the DSC safety’s feature a lot for any comparison.

Choosing a DSC capable VHF, consider that Icom’s DSC capable unit (M92D) has a larger battery (1590mAH) and the unit is smaller than the HX 851.

Does anybody have experience with the M92D and kayaking? If so are you able to disable the turn on blink and flash mode?

[Phil Allen]

Jason- Manual is online and it indicate that the function can be turned off (p88). Haven't used it for kayaking though

Phil

[Paul Sylvester]

All helpful information and with what I am learning I can say that the 851 is not a kayaker friendly GPS if it is text only, which it appears to be. (youtube).

If you add a waypoint or have one in and there is no screen chart/display wouldn't it try to put you over an island to get to a waypoint? How would you (or it) know and display the jeddy or island between you and saftey?

I prefer to see a map on a screen if given the choice.

I do not carry a PLB so DSC would be an upgrade.

Text only...marginal..

While this would give SOG it could be a pain and not as user friendy as a normal GPS.(.I think)

My VHF is always in my pfd unless I am at the lake or doing some *onshore* surfing or rolling with a group.

The battery life is a concern and would/ could be an issue on multi-day trips.

Thanks to all. I am going to lok at the M92d and the M72. And a separate GPS.

Anyone have a particular gps they like? waterproof, user friendly and priced somewhat low?

[lhunt]

Anyone have a particular gps they like? waterproof, user friendly and priced somewhat low?

This topic has some good info - I don't have anything to add to what I said then but maybe others do.

If you add a waypoint or have one in and there is no screen chart/display wouldn't it try to put you over an island to get to a waypoint?

A handheld GPS being used in "off road" mode just points you in the right direction. Maps help a lot, of course, but it still won't give you turn by turn directions like the car's GPS does.

Usually I'm using it in familiar territory, or have mapped out the waypoints beforehand, so I will pick a waypoint that takes me around the island first. Or else you can set up a "route", which is a list of waypoints and traverse them one at a time. So on the rare occasions that I use the GPS to find my way around, I'm usually following a simple pointer rather than trying to see the map as I paddle.

A typical scenario, for example, would be to do a "find" on a waypoint that is "home" (where your car is). Then a quick look at the resulting line on the map helps you decide to go to the right of that island that's in the way. Then you can either paddle a little to the right of the line, or you can put in a new waypoint on the right-hand edge of the island. You might get away with keeping the right-hand edge of the island on the map centered at the top of the screen, but the pointer is easier to see.

That simple scenario shows why you still need either local knowledge or a chart. You still need to decide which side of the island to go to, and there might be considerations other than which is the shorter route.

Some text-only GPS's have a very rudimentary pointer, but the degrees of resolution can be too low to be useful. So, yes, I agree, text-only not of much use.

-Lisa

[...]

Paul,

You might want to take a look at the Garmin Oregon 450 GPS or equivalent model, the HomePort software and the BlueChart g2 data chip. I was able to purchase the Oregon on sale. I like the BlueChart g2 since it contains detailed nautical charts of the east coast as well as Atlantic Canada. The data chip moves freely between the GPS and the laptop. The HomePort software allows me to work off my laptop to select the waypoints and upload them to the GPS.

Warren

Edited March 26, 2013 by Warren

[jason]

You might think of the radio as just a radio that has a really nice feature built into it for when the s** hits the fan. I doubt that the first or 2nd generation DSC radios will have a GPS that's good for navigating. When you hit the pull my *ss out of the water button you will be glad that it has the GPS as it will them them exactly where you are.

For a GPS you will be much better off with a separate unit, anything from a $75 one up will have more though in terms of the UI and navigating than this radio, as they were built for separate purpose. In time I am sure that the radios will have a modern GPS UI built into them, but for now think of the DSC Radio as a Radio/EPIRB that let's you communicate with the rescuers and cuts hours out of the confirm that the person is in trouble loop.

I have had a number of GPS's the current one I keep in my day hatch is a Garmin GPSmap 76Cx.

-Jason

[gyork]

Anyone have a particular gps they like? waterproof, user friendly and priced somewhat low?

I have an older entry-level Garmin e-trex. For 90-100 bucks you could get the newer, waterproof version;

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145&pID=87768

Why spend hundreds more for chart/map-enabled when you are paddling with a chart on deck and have learned how to use it?

My $0.02

[rfolster]

Paul, made the same mistake about the GPS feature when I recently looked for a new radio. It is not a turn-by-turn feature that we have all gotten used to when referring to a "GPS", but more of an electronic pointer that says "You Are Here".

After looking at two or three models at West Marine, I got the Uniden MHS135 because it seemed the most intuitive to me. Hitting "Menu" gets you to the menus, hitting "Enter" selects what is highlighted, and hitting "CLR" clears your selection and gets you back to where you were.

The spare battery tray (takes 3 AAA batteries?) is handy, but is NOT waterproof. If you are really concerned about battery life, an extra battery can be ordered, and would maintain the waterproof rating.

Also note that, on these more sophisticated units, the volume control is on the keypad, not a knob. This can be good, since there are a lot of complaints about volume knobs getting "salt-stuck", even with Salt-Away rinses. I find it to be a nuisance since, once I have the radio on and set to the channel I am going to use, I lock the keypad to keep from accidentally hitting buttons while it is in my PFD. The keypad would have to be unlocked to change the volume, channel, or any other setting. Just an inconvenience.

Definitely a good choice to go with separate GPS navigation unit. I highly recommend going to West Marine to get your fingers all over the different radio and GPS models and see what you like and don't like. The extra warranty has been discussed in other threads and is pretty much recognized as a good investment.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Bearded Recluse

[cfolster]

Paul, made the same mistake about the GPS feature when I recently looked for a new radio. It is not a turn-by-turn feature that we have all gotten used to when referring to a "GPS", but more of an electronic pointer that says "You Are Here".

After looking at two or three models at West Marine, I got the Uniden MHS135 because it seemed the most intuitive to me. Hitting "Menu" gets you to the menus, hitting "Enter" selects what is highlighted, and hitting "CLR" clears your selection and gets you back to where you were.

The spare battery tray (takes 3 AAA batteries?) is handy, but is NOT waterproof. If you are really concerned about battery life, an extra battery can be ordered, and would maintain the waterproof rating.

Also note that, on these more sophisticated units, the volume control is on the keypad, not a knob. This can be good, since there are a lot of complaints about volume knobs getting "salt-stuck", even with Salt-Away rinses. I find it to be a nuisance since, once I have the radio on and set to the channel I am going to use, I lock the keypad to keep from accidentally hitting buttons while it is in my PFD. The keypad would have to be unlocked to change the volume, channel, or any other setting. Just an inconvenience.

Definitely a good choice to go with separate GPS navigation unit. I highly recommend going to West Marine to get your fingers all over the different radio and GPS models and see what you like and don't like. The extra warranty has been discussed in other threads and is pretty much recognized as a good investment.

And remember whichever one you buy - be sure you know how to rinse it off. My VHF is waterproof with the battery removed and I have always washed the battery separate from the unit. Some are not. When we just got Robert's, I went to wash them both and almost washed his with the battery removed!

[NateHanson]

When I was replacing my radio last year, I considered the Standard DSC-GPS enabled handheld (Icom hadn't released their DSC offering yet). It was much larger, and had a much smaller-capacity battery than the Icom M72, and that seemed like too many compromises to the critical VHF functionality. A gps-dsc handheld makes your VHF function a LITTLE like a PLB, but not quite. There are plenty of areas where any VHF distress signal won't reach the good guys, whether it's a digital DSC signal, or a verbal Mayday.

I decided that for my purposes, I wanted a really strong, long-battery life VHF, that's easy to carry in my PFD. (In the near future, I expect such a radio will incorporate GPS and DSC, but that wasn't the case last year). For more remote or higher consequences trips where a VHF is not sufficient for emergency calling, I want a true satellite PLB, so I think two dedicated devices (or three if we're talking about a GPS for navigation as well) is the way to go.

One other warning for DSC shoppers - there have been DSC enabled handhelds on the market which rely on external GPS interface. These are only useful on a yacht, where they can sit on a cradle, recieving GPS info from another instrument, until you pick it up to make that distress call. But in a kayak, that DSC (without intergral GPS) functionality is not useful, so kayakers should make sure they are only looking at DSC handhelds that incorporate a GPS reciever.

[Clifford Allen]

I have the HX85, but it wont display the correct time. It is always 4 hrs ahead. Anyone know how to correct this problem?

[EEL]

8 minutes ago, Clifford Allen said:

I have the HX85, but it wont display the correct time. It is always 4 hrs ahead. Anyone know how to correct this problem?

Clifford:

It is displaying UTC which is not  a bad thing, but if you go to Section 9 of the manual it will tell you how to change the offset to display local time.  Whether it will automatically go to a -5 hour offset for EST I do not know.

Ed Lawson