heavy load, rescues ?

[spider]

Just got back from a two week "mini expedition". After a few days I noticed the fellow I was paddling with loaded his boat with deck bags on the front of his boat.

I, on the other hand, kept the fore deck of my boat free from stuff with only my compass and SPOT rescue device on in front of me (both of us kept our maps on our spray skirts)

So we each explained our logic.... he kept his back deck clearer in case he did a re-entry facing the rear and sliding into the cock pit .

My thinking was I hit most anything on the front deck with my hands or paddle, barely clearing the compass (or the map on my spray skirt) and I would want the deck clear for a T rescue.

Then it occurred to both of us...

If either of us went over and the boat capsized there would be no way we would be able to do a classic T rescue where you haul the others boat up over your deck and empty the water out.

Then we got to thinking would we even be able to over turn a capsized boat loaded with gear?

as a guesstimate I would say we each carried about 120lbs of gear and food combined.

Does any body actually practice their rolls with a fully loaded boat ?

or their rescues?

Would it be best to leave the boat upside down and tow it to shore etc etc...

Just curious what some of the thinking on the subject is.

....on the plus side we were in warm water/weather so the thought of having to swim was not so bad and we could ponder such things....

[jason]

Just got back from a two week "mini expedition". After a few days I noticed the fellow I was paddling with loaded his boat with deck bags on the front of his boat.

I, on the other hand, kept the fore deck of my boat free from stuff with only my compass and SPOT rescue device on in front of me (both of us kept our maps on our spray skirts)

So we each explained our logic.... he kept his back deck clearer in case he did a re-entry facing the rear and sliding into the cock pit .

My thinking was I hit most anything on the front deck with my hands or paddle, barely clearing the compass (or the map on my spray skirt) and I would want the deck clear for a T rescue.

Then it occurred to both of us...

If either of us went over and the boat capsized there would be no way we would be able to do a classic T rescue where you haul the others boat up over your deck and empty the water out.

Then we got to thinking would we even be able to over turn a capsized boat loaded with gear?

as a guesstimate I would say we each carried about 120lbs of gear and food combined.

Does any body actually practice their rolls with a fully loaded boat ?

or their rescues?

Would it be best to leave the boat upside down and tow it to shore etc etc...

Just curious what some of the thinking on the subject is.

....on the plus side we were in warm water/weather so the thought of having to swim was not so bad and we could ponder such things....

Rolling works just about the same, I would say it's just slower.

As for the rescues, they also work just fine. You need to have the person in the water flip their boat upright, slid it up on the deck, edge away and the boat will want to go on it's side and empty.

-Jason

[Michael_Crouse]

We did rescues with loaded boats several years ago at the first on water camping workshop that Peter Logan and I did. Jason is correct, everything is slower. If your technique is good it shouldn't make any difference.

I would be more concerned about the deck bag coming loose and getting in the way than I would be about the gear in the kayak. Anyone here remember that feisty deck bag on Squall Lake several years ago?

[EEL]

boat upright, slid it up on the deck, edge away and the boat will want to go on it's side and empty.

Jason:

Thank you for that nugget of gold. Today is a good day. A piece of valuable kayak info obtained.

Ed Lawson

[tyson]

Does any body actually practice their rolls with a fully loaded boat ?

As the others said, just slower. In fact, because the boat sits lower in the water, it can be somewhat easier if your form is good.

Emilie and I just did an overnight in Casco with our tandem. We launched from Portland. On our way by Fort George, we paddled near its shore and practiced a few tandem immersed side sculls and rolls.

[bob budd]

As an exercise we swamped a boat. Rolling was easier, that is returning upright was easier, but the momentum of the boat was such that I found myself going back over until I backed off on the sweep. The cargo weight lowers your center of gravity for rolling making rolling easier.

[spider]

Thanks for the info.

As my friend is in Quebec we always seem to have our boats loaded and ready to go and it's more like "how about we tip you over and the other one says non merci how about we tip yours over". I think we will dedicate one outing for just such things...of course we will use his gear...I think...bon idea qui ?

[Lallen]

If you do the trips frequently you might want to practice a couple of "Victory" rolls at the end of your journey each time. That way you get the feel for rolling the loaded boat, and worry a little less about having any water leak into your hatches with totally dry gear you need for a week. I've both rolled a loaded boat, and been rescued when I did something stupid and accidentally edged a little too far without bracing. Both worked just fine. As others have indicated, the roll is a bit slower, but as long as you are patient and know that it helps. Also getting the kayak to completely flip upside down takes more time as well.

[Brian Nystrom]

There's a question that I'm surprised that nobody has asked:

Why were you carrying so much gear - or such bulky gear - that you couldn't fit it all in your boats? A typical sea kayak has far more capacity than the largest backpack that most people would use for multi-day trips, so except for the gear that you actually want on deck, it should all fit inside.

Does the "120 pounds of gear and food" that you each carried include the weight of the boats? If not, that's an absolutely insane amount of weight!

As a person I used to camp with once told me, the two most important words to know when it come to packing are "pare down".

[Pintail]

<There's a question that I'm surprised that nobody has asked:

Why were you carrying so much gear - or such bulky gear - that you couldn't fit it all in your boats? A typical sea kayak has far more capacity than the largest backpack that most people would use for multi-day trips, so except for the gear that you actually want on deck, it should all fit inside>

BINGO!

Spare paddle, tow gear...what else might you want to hand? Camera? Well, that could go inside your PFD, ditto snack bar.

Bless his old, repaired heart -- Derek Hutchinson always advocated clear decks!

[spider]

Actually those were the humorous responses I thought I might get when I poised the questions

the "you should pack this way and that way"

What people do in real life is what is of interest to me, but in the meantime I will defer to Jon Bowermaster's "Birthplace of the Winds"

I like the way he writes esp when he knows they are bringing way to much.

or I suppose for a short answer it was

...Because it was our trip not yours....

though it might have been the jacuzzi that put it over the top.....

[tyson]

There's a question that I'm surprised that nobody has asked:

Why were you carrying so much gear - or such bulky gear - that you couldn't fit it all in your boats? A typical sea kayak has far more capacity than the largest backpack that most people would use for multi-day trips, so except for the gear that you actually want on deck, it should all fit inside.

Does the "120 pounds of gear and food" that you each carried include the weight of the boats? If not, that's an absolutely insane amount of weight!

As a person I used to camp with once told me, the two most important words to know when it come to packing are "pare down".

I find four differences between sea kayak camping and backpacking:

- I have to bring about a gallon of water per day (never sure I will find fresh water)

- I bring more clothing because I like dry, salt free clothing at camp.

- Everything in dry bags takes up more space than stuffing straight into a back pack

- The opening of my backpack is bigger than some of the the hatches on my kayak

Does an Anas Acuta qualify as a "typical sea kayak" in your mind? Or are you thinking of something higher volume?

On our recent Casco overnight, we took our tandem because we couldn't fit some of the items through the front hatches and the rears weren't large enough to hold everything. We fit everything into the tandem, but its a bit low in volume also and so it was tight.

I'm always left feeling that I must be doing something wrong when things barely fit, but have not figured out what it is. I suspect packaging and organizing is a large part of it as I don't think I take all _that_ much crap with me.

I would love if NSPN had a "packing you kayak for camping" clinic where I could bring all my crap and someone could show me how they do it and how I should change my ways.

Cheers!

Ty

[gyork]

...Because it was our trip not yours....

Good answer.

I dare say the "School Bus" with expedition gear comes close to your estimate, though I have never weighed her under such circumstances. Anybody with real data? Please chime in with specifics.

Gary

[Michael_Crouse]

We could try do do one of these this winter, maybe a few hours of show and tell with some cooking like last year then some on on one afterwards so everyone doesn't get bored? Not sure if I'll have enough free time this winter to do this or not, by February Zoe with be 7 months old so maybe she can help out!

Do you have a list of what you brought camping?

Most people bring too many clothes. What didn't you use? Leave that stuff at home next time (first aid kit, rain jacket, etc... don't count!). Kim and I did 7 nights in Maine (paddled Explorer and Argonaut) with all of our water and food, and giant tent (old Walrus Velo Dome 10lbs!) and everything was in the hatches, even the poop tubes. Boats weighed a ton and I wouldn't do that again, we should have just refilled our water 1/2 way through the trip.

[Suz]

I find four differences between sea kayak camping and backpacking:

- I have to bring about a gallon of water per day (never sure I will find fresh water)

- I bring more clothing because I like dry, salt free clothing at camp.

- Everything in dry bags takes up more space than stuffing straight into a back pack

- The opening of my backpack is bigger than some of the the hatches on my kayak

Does an Anas Acuta qualify as a "typical sea kayak" in your mind? Or are you thinking of something higher volume?

On our recent Casco overnight, we took our tandem because we couldn't fit some of the items through the front hatches and the rears weren't large enough to hold everything. We fit everything into the tandem, but its a bit low in volume also and so it was tight.

I'm always left feeling that I must be doing something wrong when things barely fit, but have not figured out what it is. I suspect packaging and organizing is a large part of it as I don't think I take all _that_ much crap with me.

I would love if NSPN had a "packing you kayak for camping" clinic where I could bring all my crap and someone could show me how they do it and how I should change my ways.

Cheers!

Ty

Mike will do a camping in the winter and show off baby Zoe at the same time.

In the meantime here are some hints. I have found that it is best to have dry bags no larger than 8 liters. Only need one change of clothes for the dry stuff, not something fresh for each night at camp. It may be a luxury but my favorite extra is a fresh rash guard for each day:) I always bring a fresh pair of wool socks for camp which I wear in my neoprene shoes the next day.

Best thing I ever did is to buy a summer sleeping bag - that can easily fit in a 4 L dry bag. Also, I don't dry bag everything - tent gets split up - poles separate from body and fly. Food is brought out prepped in advance and vacuum bagged with a food saver and then placed by meal in mesh bags. This allows for small bags that can be maneuvered into small places.

Believe me, if I have room left in my boat, ANYONE can! I bring everything including the kitchen sink!

Suz

[Phil Allen]

Mike will do a camping in the winter and show off baby Zoe at the same time.

In the meantime here are some hints. ...........

Believe me, if I have room left in my boat, ANYONE can! I bring everything including the kitchen sink!

Suz

I've been told that the way Suz packs, there's always room for pie in a hatch.

Phil

[jdkilroy]

Derek Hutchinson's sentiments not withstanding, a well designed, low-profile deck bag is more than just a useful item. On a recent solo trip, I was loaded to the extent that, in the prevailing conditions, opening the day hatch would result in flooding. So the VHF, camera, Spot, snacks all went in the deck bag.

I would suggest that after that trip, the most valuable lesson for me was that clothes can be kept to a minimum. Clothes can take up a lot of room.

I wore thin wool underwear, a long-sleeved top and long johns every day for almost 4 weeks and they were the same articles of clothing the entire time. I would rinse them when I could in fresh water. The interesting thing is that they did not stink. I'm not suggesting that they were fresh, but I was amazed at how unstinky they were. I sweat a lot, I was usually wet inside the dry suit within a 1/2 hour of starting the day. I tried to wear a synthetic rash guard layer once and that was the one time I stank but good. And I had to carry that shirt for the rest of the trip. For the remainder of the trip, I never wore another piece of synthetic clothing while paddling.

I endorse Suz's recommendation for using smaller stuff sacks. I would add that if you are getting new ones, don't get one without a valve and only get thin fabric or the thinnest of PVC coated bags for ease of compressing into the nooks and cranys of your compartment spaces.

Another interesting note: When I ended one day early in the trip paddling into a glassy little cove, I though it would be refreshing to take a dip and since I hadn't rolled this particular boat while all loaded I gave it a go with every expectation of coming back up on the other side. Imagine my surprise when I went over and the boat just parked upside down with no inclination what-so-ever to favor either side. It was very disconcerting and it wasn't until I had to roll in more dynamic conditions that I felt the nagging tension from that event subside. So a loaded boat is not always easier to roll.

Jon

[tyson]

Mike will do a camping in the winter and show off baby Zoe at the same time.

Winter?! ...that's when I'm busy skiing!

[spider]

Nice ideas.

Folks don't need to worry about Derek Hutchinson's seal of approval, just look at his Expedition Kayaking Book he has gear all over both decks. I like listening to Derek...I think he would be the 1st to say he paddles on the water, he doesn't walk on the water.

Also like "the wonderful tarp" it is that which I lash on the back of the boat with spare paddle etc....but when that is submerged it can weigh a ton as water gets trapped in the folds.

Where do people put their bear canisters? I was lucky to find one that fits in my hatch... I would say it's about 1/4 the size that canoe trippers use. I supplement that with a Ursula Bag.

I like the idea of doing a "Victory Roll" at the end of a trip. It has a positive connotation. and less risk of losing important gear that might get lost or damaged. I had one friend tip over on a different trip. I estimated that it cost him about $500..paddle lost, cell phone wet, camera wet , (even though they were in those special clear bags for that stuff)

I may have over estimated the weight of our gear...perhaps the older I get the heavier it feels, then again who has backpacked with 2 weeks of food and gear recently... most I ever backpacked with was 10 days worth of food & gear and that was mighty heavy, though I wore a younger mans clothes back then.

Plenty of good paddling days ahead...Sept is a great month to be on the water !

[EEL]

Good answer.

... Anybody with real data? Please chime in with specifics.

Gary

Seems to me it is not only a good answer, but the definitive answer. People vary in how much stuff they need or want, where they go and how long they stay. So while some of us have strongly held views about it, they are just personal opinions.

As to the AA being a regular kayak; I'd say it is a nearly ideal coastal touring boat. A couple of acquaintances did a trip from MDI to the Canadian border and then back using a AA and a Romany. To me, the perfect boats for such a trip.

As for some data, Gail and I did a trip this past weekend and had food, water and adult beverages for four days and three nights along with full complement of gear to be comfy. It was test to see if the Greenland could be used for touring. Turned out it was a great boat for the task. Anyway, the total for the two of us was 114# which included everything but the boats and paddles. No pie, but lobster that had never spend a night ashore and everything from languid gunkholing to running down wind on rollers. I think we had enough extra room to go a week with some pruning. Breakdown was:

Paddling specific gear 31#

Kitchen stuff and food 20#

Tent/sleeping/clothes 25#

Water and wine 38#

Ed Lawson

[emilie]

It was test to see if the Greenland could be used for touring. Turned out it was a great boat for the task.

I might have to ask you which things you managed to fit in which hatches.

Emilie

[EEL]

I might have to ask you which things you managed to fit in which hatches.

Emilie

I should have said it worked great for Gail on the water and light weight made it so nice getting on and off the shore.

Obviously it is volume challenged and not robust to take abuse.

I think every stuff sack would have gone in, but we use 2,4, 8 liter sizes with an odd 13 maybe. Tent broken down into two parts with poles and stakes separate, light sleeping bags, air mattresses, small stove, few pots. She only carried one water bladder and it was small. To me the trick is many small bags and some that are tiny so you can fill all the little odd spaces from stem to stern. Not having a day hatch helped, but the skeg box is a killer.

Ed Lawson

[gyork]

.....the total for the two of us was 114# which included everything but the boats and paddles.

Ed Lawson

My boat weighs 60 lbs. 114/2=57. Total weight 117~120 lbs. Sounds like Spider was spot on!

Thanks Ed.

[spider]

EEL..Nice of you to weigh the stuff you brought. I just got back from 2 nights and 3 days with my wife on a fresh water trip. So it inspired me to at least weigh the tent as "real life" reference.

Tent... nice and dry... 6lbs

Tent... as soppy wet thing the day we came home...9 lbs

This 2 night trip with my wife who waited patiently while I did the 2 week trip (fresh water) with my friend from Quebec.

The thing that definitely has me lashing things to the back deck is the tarp, I make a kit of the tarp spare paddle crazy creek chair and maybe odds and ends that need drying as we paddle (2 week trip)

I was slow to warm up to using a tarp but these last couple of years I carry one as I was impressed on a trip to the Mingans the importance of creating shade as much as anything else so you don't cook like a bug under an unforgiving sun.

Any way I carry a heavy duty 9x 12 tarp weight unknown...I would swap to a lighter on if it where strong enough water proof and wind proof so I'm certainly up for ideas on that.

I see where weight adds up on the small stuff camp soap and sanitizer when I read the 2 labels equaled 1/2 a lb... last minute extra flash light, bug repelent adds up, but takes little room.

But for rescues could I climb over the tarp and things on the back deck..I think i could but need to actually do it .

Cooking bannock (on a stick) weighs about the same before you make it as after, but taste great with molasses...however I brought way to much molasses.

A person could probably live almost exclusively eating Oatmeal...but eck.

A solo trip can be as austere as I want ..a little better when I travel with another person. a salt water trip is all about water water water.

A trip with my wife ..deluxe

I said bring anything you want and she did..we may have looked like the "Beverlie Hillbillies" but

.... Any wise person will know and a not so wise one like myself...A happy spouse is worth any weight in gold...

[Phil Allen]

......

Any way I carry a heavy duty 9x 12 tarp weight unknown...I would swap to a lighter on if it where strong enough water proof and wind proof so I'm certainly up for ideas on that.

.......

.... Any wise person will know and a not so wise one like myself...A happy spouse is worth any weight in gold...

Spider-

Look at the silnylon tarps available these days. 8x12 foot would probably only weigh ~20-24 ounces and pack down to the size of a grapefruit . They've been well tested by the backpacking community.

As for your last statement, I'm not going to disagree. My wife does read this board after all.

Phil