Recommend a kayak for my daughter

[Auday1]

Four years ago, I posted a notice asking if anyone could recommend a kayak for my (then) 8 year old daughter. A woman from New York responded and recommended that I look at the Perception Acadia Scout (10 ft. length, 20 inch beam). I purchased it and it turned out to be an ideal kayak for my petite daughter.

However, now she is 12 and has out-grown the Scout.

What would you recommend for an 80 lb, 4 ft. 8 in. girl who can easily paddle 6-8 miles in level 2 conditions. The kayak needs to have thigh bracing, preferrably a skeg (although I would consider a rudder), hopefully under 15 feet, and light. I don't care if it is a fibergass boat or plastic. This year she will begin to paddle in open water for the first time.

Any suggestions?

Bryan

[tyson]

There may be others that you should also consider, but you could not go wrong with an Impex Mystic.

...or a nice custom built Greenland skin-on-frame. ;-)

Cheers!

Ty

[brambor]

I went throught a similar process a few months ago. The Impex Mystic is a great suggestions and Kittery Trading post has a very nice one for a very good price.

I did question the length, however, and ended up talking to a few more people who said a longer kayak that 'FITS WELL' is also a good idea because the length will help it to keep up better with the longer kayaks than the 15 foot length of the Mystic.

It just happened to that I ran across a great deal on a used Valley Pintail. It fit my 11 year old son very well. I added a little bit more padding to improve on the fit. The kayak is great. I spent less and I feel this is something he could grow into really well as well as it could grow with his improving skill level.

[brambor]

In addendum I would simplify the answer saying that basically any LV boat from top kayak manufacturers should fit a small person and therefore also a child. It might need a little bit of additional padding that can later be adjusted as they grow.

[chetpk]

EPISEA poly kayak that has a true performance design for smaller paddlers.

http://www.emc-epi.com/touring.html

Water Walkers in Belfast Maine has two

http://www.touringkayaks.com/boatspecs.htm

[tyson]

EPISEA poly kayak that has a true performance design for smaller paddlers.

That looks like a very good choice. It looks to be genuinely low volume and affordable and should be fast for her.

I'd suggest being careful that any boat not be too large. If she is already doing 6-8 mile paddles, she's going to get caught in a wind. A windy day in a boat that is too large can be very frustrating. An 'LV' label does not make a low volume kayak, it only makes the kayak lower volume than its high volume sibling. I'm 190lbs and I universally prefer the LV kayaks to the standard sized ones. Most of them are (IMHO) too large for an 80lb paddler.

Be careful about too much length resulting in too much wetted surface area. This will result in slow paddling for a smaller paddler when trying to cover any real distance at real paddling effort levels.

I'm not sure if it is really low enough volume but you might also look at the Eliza by Necky. ...though I expect it won't be as good a choice as the Episea or even the Mystic.

Also, depending on your interests, a custom built SOF is a very real option. I know of one being assembled for a child in ME this weekend. Though the Tom Yost Sea Pup may not be considered a "proper" Greenland Qajaq by some people with its aluminum frame, it gives the general idea.

Cheers!

Ty

[brambor]

Tyson makes some great defining points.

For example we load my son's kayak first so that he sits in the water more to resists the wind.

When I said that 'any LV boat' I did not mean that any LV boat will work for your daughter. You still need to have her sit in the boat and see how it fits and what needs to be adjusted.

My sons butt was too small even for the Mystic. I would have had to do some padding on either of the boats that we tried. Kittery had a Kevlar Mystic with great looking colors as well as a great looking fiberglass Mystic in sunburst and yellow.

I think that SOF is also a great idea.

I think we you take her with adults on a 6+ miles trip then if she were in a shorter boat she would have to work a little harder to keep up with the pack.

That looks like a very good choice. It looks to be genuinely low volume and affordable and should be fast for her.

I'd suggest being careful that any boat not be too large. If she is already doing 6-8 mile paddles, she's going to get caught in a wind. A windy day in a boat that is too large can be very frustrating. An 'LV' label does not make a low volume kayak, it only makes the kayak lower volume than its high volume sibling. I'm 190lbs and I universally prefer the LV kayaks to the standard sized ones. Most of them are (IMHO) too large for an 80lb paddler.

Be careful about too much length resulting in too much wetted surface area. This will result in slow paddling for a smaller paddler when trying to cover any real distance at real paddling effort levels.

I'm not sure if it is really low enough volume but you might also look at the Eliza by Necky. ...though I expect it won't be as good a choice as the Episea or even the Mystic.

Also, depending on your interests, a custom built SOF is a very real option. I know of one being assembled for a child in ME this weekend. Though the Tom Yost Sea Pup may not be considered a "proper" Greenland Qajaq by some people with its aluminum frame, it gives the general idea.

Cheers!

Ty

[subaruguru]

In addendum I would simplify the answer saying that basically any LV boat from top kayak manufacturers should fit a small person and therefore also a child. It might need a little bit of additional padding that can later be adjusted as they grow.

Such nice photos, Rene!

Ern

[Michael_Crouse]

A Perception Umiack (sp?) might work, I think it's been renamed the Carolina 12. You can find Umiacks used for $200ish.

Several years ago Sea Kayaker did reviews of kids kayaks, the Umiack was the favorite. Yes all the reviewers were kids.

Prijon was making a kayak called the Flipper that would probably work.

Most of the "kids kayaks" Umiack, Flipper, etc.. don't have bulkheads or hatches. IMO this makes the Mystic more appealing.

[Pintail]

I think you're all barking up the wrong tree with that Episea thing! There is no for'ard bulkhead and no hatches (maybe there is one -- I cannot see it), no decklines, no toggles...why teach a child on poor equipment? If the intention is to have some classes, gain decent experience and learn seamanship, then I would have a seaworthy kayak for the purpose!

The shame is that I think there was someone offering a used, wooden child's boat during the summer?

What about building a suitable one during the winter, as others suggest? Then it could be built accordingly (to suit for next couple of years). Sorry not to have a recommendation; but I still just think that that Episea boat looks all wrong for the job.

[PeterB]

I think you're all barking up the wrong tree with that Episea thing! There is no for'ard bulkhead and no hatches (maybe there is one -- I cannot see it), no decklines, no toggles...why teach a child on poor equipment? If the intention is to have some classes, gain decent experience and learn seamanship, then I would have a seaworthy kayak for the purpose!

The shame is that I think there was someone offering a used, wooden child's boat during the summer?

What about building a suitable one during the winter, as others suggest? Then it could be built accordingly (to suit for next couple of years). Sorry not to have a recommendation; but I still just think that that Episea boat looks all wrong for the job.

I have paddled a far amount with young'uns. I would be more inclined to get a boat that someone could grow into a bit(so you don't have to go through ths again so soon) , worry less about volume, and always paddle with tow belt at the ready. Towing a younger or weaker paddler is a fine way to get about: you stay together, they can still paddle without having to struggle wth directional control, and its pretty easy to do if the tow-ee is still paddling.

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Four years ago, I posted a notice asking if anyone could recommend a kayak for my (then) 8 year old daughter. A woman from New York responded and recommended that I look at the Perception Acadia Scout (10 ft. length, 20 inch beam). I purchased it and it turned out to be an ideal kayak for my petite daughter.

However, now she is 12 and has out-grown the Scout.

What would you recommend for an 80 lb, 4 ft. 8 in. girl who can easily paddle 6-8 miles in level 2 conditions. The kayak needs to have thigh bracing, preferrably a skeg (although I would consider a rudder), hopefully under 15 feet, and light. I don't care if it is a fibergass boat or plastic. This year she will begin to paddle in open water for the first time.

Any suggestions?

Bryan

Hi Bryan,

The Necky Eliza might be a good fit. I haven't paddled one myself, but REI had one on clearance that looked like a good fit, not only for the current description you gave about your daughter's height and weight, but she would also be able to grow with it.

As for paddling with kids, I second Peter's remark that you have a tow belt at the ready and plenty of on water games in your mind. I've kayaked a great deal with kids and having both has proven to be invaluable.

[Auday1]

QUOTE(Kevin B @ Nov 28 2009, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Bryan,

The Necky Eliza might be a good fit. I haven't paddled one myself, but REI had one on clearance that looked like a good fit, not only for the current description you gave about your daughter's height and weight, but she would also be able to grow with it.

As for paddling with kids, I second Peter's remark that you have a tow belt at the ready and plenty of on water games in your mind. I've kayaked a great deal with kids and having both has proven to be invaluable.

Thanks for the wonderful suggestions for my daughter. Based on what I have heard I'm looking closely at both the Impex Mystic and the Necky Eliza. Both of these crafts are designed for smaller paddlers who want to enjoy the open water. Having owned an Impex Currituck for a couple of years, it's been my experience that the craftsmanship with Impex kayaks is impeccable; down to the smallest detail, the company designs features that paddlers want (and need).

I'm less familiar with Necky, although I see several NSPN club members owning these crafts. The polymer Eliza is larger and a little heavier than the Mystic, which concerns me a little; however, the composite version is suppose to be very light and have a beam of under 22 inches--which makes it more attractive. In addition, the composite version goes with a skeg instead of the rudder in the polymer option. I'm very predisposed to skegs, but I have to remember that this is for my daughter and not me. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble finding exact specifications for the composite version, even from the Necky website. I will give them a call.

For those of you who have not had the privilege (yet) of introducing a child into the sport of kayaking--it's really cool . . .

Bryan

[risingsn]

P&H Vela (http://www.phseakayaks.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=9). Brian, This is the boat that my wife paddles, & she is about an inch taller & about 15# heavier than your daughter. Before this boat she had a Mystic & if you wanted it you would have had to pry it from her cold dead hand. That was until she tried the Vela @ The Florida Gulf Coast Symposium about 4 years ago. The Vela is a great boat. It is basically a sports car of a boat, very fast, yet it will turn on a dime. I would defiantly put it on the list of boats to try. Of course the Mystic would be a great choice as well.

Enjoy, Chuck

[tyson]

P&H Vela (http://www.phseakayaks.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=9). Brian, This is the boat that my wife paddles, & she is about an inch taller & about 15# heavier than your daughter.

Does she ever paddle it in wind? With a "recommended" load capacity of 231 lbs, it sounds like a rather large boat for an 80lb paddler.

Cheers!

Ty

[tyson]

Does she ever paddle it in wind? With a "recommended" load capacity of 231 lbs, it sounds like a rather large boat for an 80lb paddler.

I was thinking a little more about how various people come to different conclusions on the same kayaks.

One question that directly addresses the above would be, do you ever paddle when there is wind? ...or do you expect to? Is towing a real option? Some people have a temperament that makes them dislike being towed. Some people don't like to tow. However, just a "little towing" can to wonders for boat control. It can be a lot more about the control than the tow.

Some people warn that a smaller boat will hold her back. My experiences lead me to worry more about a large boat holding her back.

If she can't handle the boat in the conditions she will paddle in, she will be held back. A boat that is too large will require milder conditions than one that fits better.

My biases are based on my experiences. I've never seen anyone suffer from a boat that was too small. I have seen one person in particluar have an absolutely miserable week of paddling because their boat was too large and there was a wind blowing. I am quite serious about how miserable this person was. This person almost NEVER spends money if they don't have to. She immediately went out demo'ing smaller boats after that experience.

Other people will have had different experiences to guide their suggestions.

Here is where the advice of paddle before you buy comes in. Think real hard about what sort of paddling your daughter will be doing. Think about what kayaks might suit that sort of paddling. Then find a good dealer and go test paddle on the sort of trip you are really thinking of. Test paddle the ones you think are the right choice. Test paddle the ones you think are not the right choice. It is not uncommon to try a kayak you were not interested in and figure out it was just the thing for you, or in this case, her.

Pintail warned against a boat that had only one bulkhead (yes, it has a hatch). What is wrong with not having bulkheads?! White water paddlers don't use bulk heads. Our tandem has only one bulkhead. SOF qajaqs don't have any bulkheads. Are they unsea-worthy? No! However, you do have to use flotation/air bags. For some that is a reasonable trade off. For others it is too much of an annoyance. It also happens that deck lines are positively trivial to add to a kayak.

So, consider all of our comments and then go test paddle. Any really good dealer, the type you'd want behind your purchase after the sale, will be quite willing to let her demo boats. You may also be able to find people on this list that would let her demo their boats.

Cheers!

Ty

[brambor]

One issue I have with lack of bulkheads is that unless you use a seasock it is a pain in the neck to empty all the water out of the boat in case of a capsize.

Also it is important to not that a question of FIT is not directly related to boat's length but instead to the amount of room for legs and size of the seat and width of the 'fit' at hips.

The amount of the wetted surface also has to be taken into consideration but that is the same for everyone else. You don't want to buy a boat rated 180 - 240 lbs if you weigh 180 and you never plan on loading the boat for overnight trips.

[jason]

Pintail warned against a boat that had only one bulkhead (yes, it has a hatch). What is wrong with not having bulkheads?! White water paddlers don't use bulk heads. Our tandem has only one bulkhead. SOF qajaqs don't have any bulkheads. Are they unsea-worthy? No! However, you do have to use flotation/air bags. For some that is a reasonable trade off. For others it is too much of an annoyance. It also happens that deck lines are positively trivial to add to a kayak.

I love my white water boat, but it's no sea boat. With white water the rescue is the shore that your feet from. With the ocean you can be miles from shore. As this is a boat for a jr paddler it might not be that much of an issue. For me it would be a non starter, sea sock or no sea sock I think that bulkheads provide a lot of safety.

-Jason

[Pintail]

<Pintail warned against a boat that had only one bulkhead (yes, it has a hatch). What is wrong with not having bulkheads?! White water paddlers don't use bulk heads. Our tandem has only one bulkhead. SOF qajaqs don't have any bulkheads. Are they unsea-worthy? No! However, you do have to use flotation/air bags. For some that is a reasonable trade off. For others it is too much of an annoyance. It also happens that deck lines are positively trivial to add to a kayak>

First off, Tyson: you will likely as not find no one on this board that would endorse your question "What's wrong with only one bulkhead". There may be a few paddlers here who paddle "rec. boats"; but the vast majority of us paddle sea kayaks -- and decent sea kayaks have multiple bulkheads! They are a safety necessity. When you practise rescues and the emptying of a boat (<any> boat) you soon realise why bulkheads matter.

Secondly, WW paddlers all have a secure roll, as do (historically) the Inuit. This has always been a matter of life and death to the latter: they do not see water as a plaything, as we do -- most of them cannot swim! They STAY in their boats and therefore bulkheads count for little. Anyhow: how would you construct bulkheads on a skin-on-frame boat? <Really> difficult, I'd guess... By the way: WW paddlers get no say in "using bulkheads" -- their boats do not <come> with them, as far as I am aware?

Thirdly, I did not say that SOFs are unseaworthy.

Lastly, decklines are also considered "necessary" on any half-decent sea kayak -- and once you start into the BCU syllabus, you will understand that -- it also has to do with staying in contact with your boat once you are no longer sitting <in> it! Decklines and toggles at each end -- <necessary>!

Have I answered your points? Don't get me started...

[Michael_Crouse]

I think Tyson's point was that a SOF also has no bulkheads so it's really no different from a safety perspective than a kids kayak like the EPI.

IMO no bulkheads=no bulkheads, be that on a rec kayak, kids kayak, or sof. Float bags are good, bulkheads are better, bulkheads & float bags are best.

Yes I paddled a sea kayak that had a rear bulkhead and front float bag for years and it worked fine. We can all get far too caught up with what is a "proper kayak" with all the details and quirks we think they should have. By that I mean deck lines are a must have, but a painter will work just fine. Bow toggles? Never ever use them for carrying the kayak (like you see people doing in TITS dvds) that isn't proper. Rudder you say? No way I would ever use a rudder, I want to work on my skills.... Tell that to Freya who's almost around Australia in an Epic kayak with a rudder, or to Paul Caffyn who has a rudder on his (gasp!) Nordkapp.

What I'm trying to say is that any kayak that gets you out on the water is a good kayak. Can't we all just paddle?

[tyson]

First off, Tyson: you will likely as not find no one on this board that would endorse your question "What's wrong with only one bulkhead". There may be a few paddlers here who paddle "rec. boats"; but the vast majority of us paddle sea kayaks -- and decent sea kayaks have multiple bulkheads! They are a safety necessity. When you practise rescues and the emptying of a boat (<any> boat) you soon realise why bulkheads matter.

I do practice rescues and I do empty boats. I assure you that our tandem is no "rec boat". There are effective alternatives to bulkheads. In our case we use flotation bags. They work. We have demonstrated this to ourselves in real conditions.

Secondly, WW paddlers all have a secure roll, as do (historically) the Inuit.

...and sea kayakers can't? What makes them special?

Anyhow: how would you construct bulkheads on a skin-on-frame boat? <Really> difficult, I'd guess...

I've seen a web page were someone did this. It looked complicated and I'm not sure how effective it was. Again, flotation works here. Some people use a sea sock. I have no experience with those yet, so I'm not sure how to evaluate the concerns of getting caught up in a loose sock or having it come loose from the coaming.

By the way: WW paddlers get no say in "using bulkheads" -- their boats do not <come> with them, as far as I am aware?

If they valued them, the market would offer them. My exposure to WW says that that market makes more use of flotation bags.

Thirdly, I did not say that SOFs are unseaworthy.

I didn't intend to claim that you did. However, you did say that any boat without more than one bulk head is unseasworthy. What should one conclude from that?

Lastly, decklines are also considered "necessary" on any half-decent sea kayak -- and once you start into the BCU syllabus, you will understand that -- it also has to do with staying in contact with your boat once you are no longer sitting <in> it! Decklines and toggles at each end -- <necessary>!

I never argued against decklines. I said that they are easy to add. I know because I have done so. I did so because I value them. Where did I suggest that decklines were not necessary?

Have I answered your points? Don't get me started...

I didn't intend my comments as a personal attack and I'm sorry that you took them as such. I did intend to refute beliefs that some people have and you happened to have posted. ...so I used your comments as context. I was attempting to objectively discuss kayak features and choosing from them.

My points were:

1) Flotation bags are a viable alternative to bulkheads. I use them.

2) Decklines are often easy to add. I've added them.

I didn't make these point hypothetically. I made them based on personal experience.

Your reply didn't address either point.

Cheers!

Ty

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Can't we all just paddle?

[NPSheehan]

If you are looking for a very stable day touring kayak that will fit a smaller person well then I'd suggest an older version of the Perception Carolina 13.5 The Carolina although not fast is a great and stable plastic kayak and it is also narrow. There are a zillion of them out there. Most of them sold have a rudder as well and you can pick one up for a bargain. The older Carolina 13.5 was very snug for all but petite paddlers. My girlfriend Cyndi as well as a few other women paddlers I know had them and they loved the Carolina 13.5. Cyndi sold her Carolina and now has as Valley Aquanaut LV but the woman she sold it to has been paddling it for 2 years and loves it. Perception no longer makes the Carolina 13.5 but you can probably pick one up used for under $600.

Check out the review below from Paddling.net and info from Lake George Kayak

http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=1114

http://www.lakegeorgekayak.com/perception_...na135_specs.htm

Neil

[risingsn]

Does she ever paddle it in wind? With a "recommended" load capacity of 231 lbs, it sounds like a rather large boat for an 80lb paddler.

Cheers!

Ty

Sorry Ty, I guess you missed the first part...99-231#. By the time she put 20 to 30# of safety gear in it (as any good paddler would carry) she will be fine. If you read my post you may have noticed that my wife is 95#...and has no problems.

Cheers!

Chuck

[glil]

What would you recommend for an 80 lb, 4 ft. 8 in. girl who can easily paddle 6-8 miles in level 2 conditions.

Any suggestions?

A Mystic would probably be a good size for her and would give her room to grow. In fact, she may never actually "outgrow" it (at least size-wise). Katie was about your daughter's size when she got her Mystic. Now she's my size. She likes it and so do I. If she would like to try it some time, let me know.

Gay