chetpk Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I saw this on Sea Kayaker magazine's web site, but wonder about its' effectiveness in rougher waters. My question is this, does it make sense for the person being rescued to climb up and straddle the rescuers' boat as shown in the video or is this simply a chance to put two in the water if this rescue is being performed in rougher conditions? It does make it look like the person being rescued has an easier time getting back into the boat compared to doing it from the water, but I also wonder if that is also creating a second opportunity for one or even two to be knocked back into the water in rougher conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyson Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I don' t know the answer to your question, but don't under estimate the effectiveness of leaning on a 2nd boat. If the rescuer (and rescuee) hang on to the 2nd boat for stability, it may work quite well. ...have you ever rafted up in rough conditions? By rough, I mean just about breaking? I'd suggest we give it a try! Cheers! Ty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I saw this on Sea Kayaker magazine's web site, but wonder about its' effectiveness in rougher waters. My question is this, does it make sense for the person being rescued to climb up and straddle the rescuers' boat as shown in the video or is this simply a chance to put two in the water if this rescue is being performed in rougher conditions? It does make it look like the person being rescued has an easier time getting back into the boat compared to doing it from the water, but I also wonder if that is also creating a second opportunity for one or even two to be knocked back into the water in rougher conditions. I have several concerns about this rescue. The victims boat will be very slippery when upside down & no deck lines to hold. When the victim is re-entering his boat his center of gravity is very high, this could be fixed. After the victim was on deck & the rescuer was moving the victims boat perpendicular to pull it up on deck, she was getting no support from that boat. If the victim is to tired to get in the cockpit for a 'T' rescue they could do a 'leg-in' (use the big muscles), a sling or scoop. . Considering that it will only take about a minute to get the victim back in a dry boat using the 'T' rescue, I'm not sure I see what this improves on. Well, theirs my 2 cents ($3.50 w/ the coming inflation) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPARSONS Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 I learned that as part of the BCU Canoe Safety Test a couple of years ago. It was presented as, among other things, a way to do on water repairs of a boat. It was incredibly stable. With the person on the front deck and the other kayak across, I don't believe I could have capsized if I wanted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chetpk Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 I learned that as part of the BCU Canoe Safety Test a couple of years ago. It was presented as, among other things, a way to do on water repairs of a boat. It was incredibly stable. With the person on the front deck and the other kayak across, I don't believe I could have capsized if I wanted to. When the person is first getting on and straddling the boat and when they are going from the rescue boat back into their own boat were the two stages that most concern me. Did you find those two times squirrely at all? I can see when the capsized boat is secure and across the deck of the rescued boat as being bombproof, but wondered about those other two moments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPARSONS Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 When the person is first getting on and straddling the boat and when they are going from the rescue boat back into their own boat were the two stages that most concern me. Did you find those two times squirrely at all? I can see when the capsized boat is secure and across the deck of the rescued boat as being bombproof, but wondered about those other two moments. I don't recall any problems at all once we committed to it, but we were only doing it on flatwater. If you were concerned about getting on, you could wait until the rescuer had already brought the other kayak onto his deck. Getting back in shouldn't be any more unstable than any other assisted rescue. In the video the rescuee stood up in the cockpit, but he didn't have to do so. We discussed that it is possible to even get into the rescued boat while it is still sitting on the rescuers deck since the rescuer is there to stabilize. I can't recall if the instructor demonstrated that or just mentioned that it is possible. I suspect that would be harder in conditions. I think the best thing to do is to get out on the water and try it. Practicing rescues is one of my favorite things to do, which is good because it took me a long time to learn to roll! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcohn Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 We discussed that it is possible to even get into the rescued boat while it is still sitting on the rescuers deck since the rescuer is there to stabilize. This is how we recover low-volume rolling qajaqs, which would flood during a normal rescue. I've only seen it done when the qajaq is brought over the deck and drained before the person climbs on the rescuer's deck. It seems to work best if you slide the qajaq forward a bit so that the person is sliding in down hill with gravity assisting a bit. It also helps when the rescuer is in a low-volume qajaq which sinks fairly deep under the combined weight, so that the angle of the qajaq on deck isn't too extreme. Ralph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPSheehan Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I watched this video many times to see if there were any flaws in this technique. I guess the first thing that could cause a proble is having any gear on your front deck such as paddles. Also I noticed the capsized kayak had no visible decklines for the boy doing the rescue to hold on to. This technique would appear to be very difficult in rough conditions given the lack of a good hold. However on the positive side the swimmer is out of the water quickly which could be a big benefit in cold water. I'm definitely going to have to try this manuever too. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 IMO, not only would this rescue NOT work in rough conditions, it would be dangerous. The reasons are: - At NO point does the rescuer have a firm grip on the victim's boat. Laying across the hull without something to grab onto may be stable, but it's NOT secure and in rough water, it's quite likely that the rescuer would lose his grip and capsize. - Having the victim crawl up on the rescuer's deck just makes the above problem worse, as it makes the rescuer's boat less stable and subject to the effects of the victim if he should lose his balance. - Dragging a boat that far across one's deck and keeping it there for any length of time is an invitation to injury. One good wave and the rescuer could end up with a face full of kayak and/or get slammed onto his aft deck by the boat. Having the victim on the rescuer's foredeck prevents him from leaning his boat toward the victim's boat and using gunwale to lever the victim's boat out of the water. He has to lift it up and across, which is strenuous and could result in injury. - The rescuer must maneuver between the victim and his boat. That leaves the victim at least momentarily without any support or conact and also makes him prone to drifting away from both boats. There is also the possibility of the rescuer hitting the victim with his boat, which would be pretty likely in waves. - On every kayak I've seen, the foredeck is higher than the aft deck. That means that the victim will probably have to pull himself higher out of the water to get onto the foredeck of the rescuer's boat than he would to get onto the aft deck of his own boat. What's the point? In contrast, a standard T rescue is fast, has minimal time with the victim's boat on the rescuer's deck, creates a very stable platform with a firm grip on the victim's boat, requires less maneuvering and never leaves the victim without support or contact with a boat. Even on a boat with no decklines, a T rescue would be more secure. It's also a technique that's been "battle proven". Considering that this rescue doesn't offer any obvious advantages over a traditional T rescue (speed, ease of execution, stability), I don't see any payback for the increased risk involved. Essentially, this seems to be a solution in search of a problem, just another flatwater trick that would be worse than useless in conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brambor Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Brian, I wonder, in regular T rescue, what is the preferred positioning in respect to incoming waves. Is the rescuer holding the other kayak and facing the incoming wave? (my guess) or should he have his back to the wave with the rescuee facing the wave? IMO, not only would this rescue NOT work in rough conditions, it would be dangerous. The reasons are: - At NO point does the rescuer have a firm grip on the victim's boat. Laying across the hull without something to grab onto may be stable, but it's NOT secure and in rough water, it's quite likely that the rescuer would lose his grip and capsize. - Having the victim crawl up on the rescuer's deck just makes the above problem worse, as it makes the rescuer's boat less stable and subject to the effects of the victim if he should lose his balance. - Dragging a boat that far across one's deck and keeping it there for any length of time is an invitation to injury. One good wave and the rescuer could end up with a face full of kayak and/or get slammed onto his aft deck by the boat. Having the victim on the rescuer's foredeck prevents him from leaning his boat toward the victim's boat and using gunwale to lever the victim's boat out of the water. He has to lift it up and across, which is strenuous and could result in injury. - The rescuer must maneuver between the victim and his boat. That leaves the victim at least momentarily without any support or conact and also makes him prone to drifting away from both boats. There is also the possibility of the rescuer hitting the victim with his boat, which would be pretty likely in waves. - On every kayak I've seen, the foredeck is higher than the aft deck. That means that the victim will probably have to pull himself higher out of the water to get onto the foredeck of the rescuer's boat than he would to get onto the aft deck of his own boat. What's the point? In contrast, a standard T rescue is fast, has minimal time with the victim's boat on the rescuer's deck, creates a very stable platform with a firm grip on the victim's boat, requires less maneuvering and never leaves the victim without support or contact with a boat. Even on a boat with no decklines, a T rescue would be more secure. It's also a technique that's been "battle proven". Considering that this rescue doesn't offer any obvious advantages over a traditional T rescue (speed, ease of execution, stability), I don't see any payback for the increased risk involved. Essentially, this seems to be a solution in search of a problem, just another flatwater trick that would be worse than useless in conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I learned that as part of the BCU Canoe Safety Test a couple of years ago. It was presented as, among other things, a way to do on water repairs of a boat. It was incredibly stable. With the person on the front deck and the other kayak across, I don't believe I could have capsized if I wanted to. I did the same drill in 4* training. The big difference is that the paddler in the boat to be repaired didn't get into the water, but transferred from his boat to my deck. Secondly, the 'damaged boat was right side up. And as an aside, I was paddling an Avocet, the other paddler was 200#+ and his boat was an Assateague @ 60#+, I was looking like the proverbial submarine. All of this just outside of as surf zone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Brian, I wonder, in regular T rescue, what is the preferred positioning in respect to incoming waves. Is the rescuer holding the other kayak and facing the incoming wave? (my guess) or should he have his back to the wave with the rescuee facing the wave? It seems to me that this can go either way, though I've had victims freak out at the sight of an incoming wave. Perhaps the best situation is the have the rescuer facing the waves, so they can give reassuring warnings about incoming waves. It's also easier to absorb breaking waves on your back that with your chest, so I would tend to put the victim in that position, since they may not be as experienced in dealing with conditions. The hardest part of rescues in conditions is maintaining the proper orientation to the waves, as the boats will tend to broach, which puts you in a dangerous position. Ideally, you'll have a third boat available to put you on a directional tow to keep the boats oriented into the waves until the rescue is complete. This is also critical if you're near the surf zone, since you don't want to drift into it. The third boat can prevent this and potentially even move you into calmer water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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