Rolling Observations

[Bill Gwynn]

Some of these comments may seem obvious, but here goes.

Should you learn to roll first, or get your bracing/sculling down first.

My reasoning was if I could learn to roll, then I could practice bracing/sculling and if I fell over I could just roll up. Well, that was good in theory, but in reality...not so good.

I took rolling lessons over the winter, and by the end of my second lesson, I had it down pretty good, I did like 10 in a row. I was learning the sweep roll as taught in "The Kayak Roll" video. It's easy when you are in a nice warm pool and have someone there coaching you and reminding you to setup correctly, proper blade angle, keep your head down etc.

Well, once spring came, and I got out on the ocean, I decided I would try out my roll. 10 tries, 1 sucessful roll, damn that water is cold. I couldn't understand what happened, I thought I had it down pat.

Well, over the past 4 months, I have attempted my roll every time I go out, and I was lucky if I got 1 out of 3 attempts. So, more recently I have been concentrating more on bracing/sculling. Started with low braces/sculling, then moved to extended paddle high bracing/sculling, and then just last week high braces/capsize recoveries. I did these over and over on BOTH sides. This high brace is basically the finish of a roll, I would fall over so far that my shoulder would actually go into the water, then high brace back up.

Today, I went down to my local pond to specifically practice my roll, well wouldn't you know, I was rolling like crazy, on both sides even! It was like everything just all of a sudden came together.

For me, the most beneficial excersise was the extended paddle bracing/sculling/rolling. I had this misconception that extended paddle maneuvers were for wimps, but in reality using the extended paddle allows you to get your boat completly over and back up with all that extra support you get from the extended paddle. This builds confidence, and allows you to feel the edge of your boat as well as getting the timing for hip snaps to come back up.

So, in conclusion, It's very hard to have a reliable roll without good bracing/sculling skills. As a beginner, learning to brace and scull is very daunting task, because you end up spending more time practicing self rescues than bracing (at least I did). For me...the extended paddle was the answer.

[Walter]

It is good to hear that it is finally coming together for you. That means you will have more time to spot and help me at the skill sessions and when we go paddling this Sunday.

Keep your self fine tuned will you, so I have a good roll model to follow.

Walter

Impex Serenity

Orange/White

[cathyfoley]

Bill I agree with your comments. I've had difficulty learning to roll, mostly because of my heading coming up. I taught myself to do a sweep roll (using The Kayak Roll DVD)and had it down pretty good. Then,like you,lost it for a while. I too, began practicing high braces, totally committing my body to the water and working to keep my head down. In addition, I re-outfitted my hip padding to give me a tighter fit, but not uncomfortable. It has help my rolling. I'm now using an extended paddle sweep roll as a means of getting back up without wet exiting, if my normal sweep fails me. What I have found is a new confidence under water. If I miss my first attempt, I just switch to an extended paddle and roll-up. I have not had to wet exit since using the extended paddle on 2nd attempts. Interesting enough, it was a non-roller at a skill session who suggested I try the extended paddle. Now I'm working on a C to C roll. LOL

[bob budd]

I initially struggled with the C-C roll. Could not get that hip snap. I tried classes, pool sessions, etc. Then Chris Thomas got me rolling up with a sweep roll in about 15 minutes. If I concentrate on following the paddle back "with my eyes" I come up every time, not that my head does not come up early when I don't concentrate. I found my hip snap while practicing high bracing. I also find skulling much easier with the twig.

[Brian Nystrom]

Rolling is a "gateway" skill. Once you know how to roll, it makes it much easier to explore the limits of your boat and perfect other skills. It would be nice to learn to roll first and some people have, but I suspect that most learn as you did, through a progression of bracing skills that ultimately lead to rolling. That was the case for me, too.

Regardless, the main thing is to learn to roll by whatever method works for you. It opens up a world of other skills that make paddling much more enjoyable, not to mention safer.

[brianj]

For me, learning to roll before sculling was more helpful because I learned the power of hip and leg control. Also, in my mind (though it may be wrong) learning to "get up" when I flipped over was more important than sculling or bracing. That is not to say that sculling and bracing aren't important, though. I took the Bob Foote rolling class last year, and I actually had trouble learning the Sweep Roll. So, Bob got me doing the C-to-C roll instead. For me, C-to-C was easier, and really stressed the importance of using legs to roll... basically pulling the boat under you instead of flipping up using mostly torso (and risking shoulder injury)... especially in a heavy, plastic boat. After I got the C-to-C down, the Sweep came along nicely. This year I am focused on my bracing/sculling skills. After learning the "hip snap" and "legs, legs, legs" for rolling, my bracing/sculling is pretty good.

[glenn]

I agree, in terms of learning order it seems to me to make much more sense to learn sculling before rolling. Sculling gives you both a brace and a capsize recovery. A roll is kind of just an optimization to get you back up faster when you want or need to bypass the brace stage.

Put them together, though, and it's pretty liberating. I'm much more willing to commit myself to bracing and sculling now that I know I can roll back up if I blow something, and I'm much more willing to work on harder rolls (less paddle extension) now that I know I can easily come up into a sculling brace to rest and breathe whenever I want to. No need to fear failure, no need to panic.

On flat water, anyway. And on my right side.

[gfmichaels]

Bill, I heartily agree. My experience was almost identical to yours. In addition, I was helped by switching to a Greenland Paddle, in which extended positions are a normal part of paddling and rolling.

Glen Michaels

Plattsburgh, NY

Valley Skerray RMX

[bethany]

I think this one depends on the person, and what comes to their body easiest first.

For me, once I learned that I was fairly patient about hanging around upside down in the pool this winter (I had thought I wouldn't be) and had fun screwing around and learning to roll, then I wasn't nervous about leaning way over in a high brace (which had scared me a little before) because I knew if I went over it wasn't a bad thing, and not only that I could get back up pretty easily. But mostly it was that I needed to screw around in the boat, and rolling happened to come to me faster or intimidated me less than high braces, while it's the opposite for plenty of other people.

All the flopping around in my boat attempting to roll it and laughing and seeing what happened if I tried to hand roll it for fun in the pool this winter made me realize all the things I was capable of in my boat that I'd never gotten to realize in a couple of seasons on the ocean (and thus was afraid to try) because I was always with groups on a mission of some kind that I couldn't hold up by you know, standing up and suddenly doing the Greased Lightening dance or having cowboy rentry races. lol

Thanks to Jill I realized I could balance brace my boat really fairly easily, which then made sculling seem more easy, too. So for me, I just needed to mess around in my boat, and having fun without formality...flipping it over, standing on it, or hanging from the side is what I needed (and is how I would have learned if I was 10 and messing around with a kayak, too) before I could be more formally taught certain skills truly effectively. (The have fun approach to learning does have a drawback in that laughing while underwater is still a problem of mine. This was particularly notable as Bob Foote kept flinging my boat upside down this weekend. lol)

--b

[Jill]

The ordinary instructional progression is to teach bracing first, particularly, if you are doing the C to C roll, as the motions are essentially the same only more pronounced in the roll. However, I agree with Bethany. It depends on the person. Learn whatever skill makes you comfortable and makes it fun.

Years ago, I learned to roll before I learned to brace. Not because I consciously chose that path, but because I wasn't taught bracing in the intro kayaking class I took. I then wanted to roll and sought that out. Yes, after I learned to roll, it made learning bracing easier, but it took me a long time to get a roll. Perhaps had the bracing come first, the roll would have come more easily. Who knows.

I see no reason why you cannot develop both skills essentially at the same time.

Jill

[PatE]

Great post!

I need to ask, though; what is a C to C roll?

[Jill]

It is much harder to describe in words than to show in photos. I'm planning to post some photos on this topic soon. If you look at some of the rolling videos out there, one called "Grace Under Pressure" teaches the C to C. Another excellent one called "The Kayak Roll" teaches what is called the Sweep Roll. Which one is right for you is, as Bob Foote and Karen Knight would say, "boat and body dependent." According to them, the sweep roll used to be the preferred method, then the white water boaters began using the C to C roll and that technique filtered into sea kayaking. Now, the sweep roll is becoming the more common method taught for both disciplines.

The name of the C to C roll derives from the relative body positions. The paddler capsizes, then orients his or her paddle at 90 degrees to the boat, making a "C" with the body arched toward the boat hull. Then the paddler executes what is called a strong "hip snap" or "hip flick," at the same time shifting or "dinking" the head toward the water so that the body makes a "C" in the other direction toward the water, the head coming up last. (This is the same motion as a high brace, only more extreme.) Thus righting the boat.

The C to C body positions give the manuever its name. This manuever requires flexibility, timing and some strength, and is easy for some and difficult for others. It is much harder to do in some boats and with some body types. The older white water boats are much rounder and somewhat narrower than the newer play boats which can be wider and flatter bottomed. Thus, the C to C technique adapated well to those older boats, where the sweep roll can be easier with the newer styles.

The sweep roll requires similar skills, but is easier for some because doesn't require as much flexibility or as strong a hip snap motion. The sweep roll combines a sweeping action of the paddle with a hip snap and head dink, but it is more gradual than the more "explosive" C to C snap. The sweep roll can also be done with a fully or semi-extended paddle, providing more leverage and making it easier to right the boat.

For those who can do it, having both types of rolls is helpful. There are also many other rolling techniques. These are just the two most common.

Best to have someone demonstrate for you. Hope that helps.

Jill