VHF Radios -- dead and new

[djlewis]

My Standard Horizon HX460S finally succumbed. I sealed the mic jack and thought I was keeping the rubber plug on the recharging jack nice and tight, but after surviving a year of submersion, it looks like water got in the charging jack during a dunking for trip leader training, and now it's dead.

So, first question -- can anybody fax me a copy of the group buy receipt from last year. I can't locate my copy, and I'll need it to send it back to the factory for repair/replacement.

Next, I'm probably about to become a two-radio owner, since I really don't want to be without while this one is at the factory. Besides, I fear this may become chronic with the HX460S.

So, second question -- plusses and minuses between the Standard Horizon HX471S (yes, pricey at $350) and the ICOM IC-M88 ($250 after the current rebate) or any others in this class -- small submersibles with good battery life. I believe these both lack the 460's weak points for water entry, but I'd be grateful if someone verified that. Any other considerations or preferences, especially ones that would justify the extra $100 for the HX471S?

Thanks. --David.

[Brian Nystrom]

>My Standard Horizon HX460S finally succumbed. I sealed the

>mic jack and thought I was keeping the rubber plug on the

>recharging jack nice and tight, but after surviving a year

>of submersion, it looks like water got in the charging jack

>during a dunking for trip leader training, and now it's

>dead.

Join the club! I've gone through 5 of them.

>So, first question -- can anybody fax me a copy of the group

>buy receipt from last year. I can't locate my copy, and

>I'll need it to send it back to the factory for

>repair/replacement.

If you contact Standard Horizon's repair dept. (ask for Tim), they'll probably take it back without the receipt if you tell them approximately when you bought it. Some people have been successful in exchanging them at the source of purchase, but that seems to vary with the store and the manager.

BTW, you can expect a repair/exchange from S-H to take ~6 weeks. Even when Tim expedited an exchange for me personally, it took a month.

>Next, I'm probably about to become a two-radio owner, since

>I really don't want to be without while this one is at the

>factory. Besides, I fear this may become chronic with the

>HX460S.

It varies. Some people have had few, if any problems. Others like myself have had a lot of trouble. I think Lisa Santullo holds the record with 9 dead 460s.

>So, second question -- plusses and minuses between the

>Standard Horizon HX471S (yes, pricey at $350) and the ICOM

>IC-M88 ($250 after the current rebate) or any others in this

>class -- small submersibles with good battery life. I

>believe these both lack the 460's weak points for water

>entry, but I'd be grateful if someone verified that. Any

>other considerations or preferences, especially ones that

>would justify the extra $100 for the HX471S?

The 471 eliminates the charger port, but it still has the same aux mic/antenna port with an easily dislodged cover, another common leak point. I had my last 460 fail even after sealing both of these ports (and using a drop-in charger), so apparently there are other weaknesses in the design. I don't know if the 471 has improved on this or not, but I'm skeptical.

I've had excellent luck with Icom radios and they're now my personal choice. Both the M1V and the M88 have held up fine though whatever I've thrown at them. Here are some details:

- Both models use drop-in chargers, eliminating the charger port.

- The M88 has an aux mic/antenna port, but it has a screwed on cover and a leak-proof connector that will not allow water into the radio, even if the cover is removed. The M1V has a very tightly fitted cap over its aux mic/antenna port. It cannot be easily dislodged like the cap on the 460.

- Both models have a labyrinth seal around the battery that blocks virtually all water intrusion, plus an O-ring seal around the connector itself.

The only issues I've had with either of these radios pertain to the on/off knobs and are common to similar radios. The M88 (like the 460) has a tendency to turn itself on if it's jumbled around in a gear bag. This can be avoided by not tossing it in with your other gear during transportation. The M1V has concentric volume and squelch knobs and if it's not rinsed thorougly after use, they can become bound together by salt encrustation, causing both to move when either is turned. This is easily remedied by rinsing the radio after use.

Another alternative is the Uniden Voyager. It's often available at a bargain basement price of under $150 and seems to be well constructed. (Rumor has it that Sam's Club was selling them for $88 recently, so check your local store.) It uses a drop in charger (no charger port), but it has a rather weak rubber plug over the aux mic/antenna port, so I'd recommend sealing it permanently. It's got good features and the battery sealing system is similar to the Icom radios. It has concentric volume and squelch knobs, so the same precautions as for the M1V apply. The only significant downside I see with the Voyager is that the buttons on the front are small and close together, making operation with gloves on quite difficult.

I hope this helps with your decision.

[Suz]

If I recall, at the end of the season last year, Lisa S. mentioned that a few times she returned the radio as it no longer "changed channels". Turned out that she had unknowingly locked the station, she didn't know this was an option. FYI, locking the radio on a station is done by holding down the lamp button on the side until the key shows in the monitor.

Suzanne

[djlewis]

>If I recall, at the end of the season last year, Lisa S.

>mentioned that a few times she returned the radio as it no

>longer "changed channels". Turned out that she had

>unknowingly locked the station, she didn't know this was an

>option. FYI, locking the radio on a station is done by

>holding down the lamp button on the side until the key shows

>in the monitor.

>Suzanne

Yes, thanks. In fact, I was the one who tipped Lisa off about the unlocking the channel with the lamp button. But that only accounted for a couple of her nine!

Given Brian's answer (on top of my own experience -- this is #2 for me, #3 coming up), I'm pretty much through with Standard Horizon models. I'll get my 460 fixed as a backup, but it sounds like the ICOM IC-M88 is the way to go (or maybe the Uniden).

--David.

[djlewis]

>I hope this helps with your decision.

Yes indeed... thanks! I think I'll go with the IC-M88.

The Uniden sounds interesting. But a solid, usable, reliable radio seems more important to me with every trip I make, so it's not something I'm going to compromise on. The 460 failed in the middle of last week's training. If that had happened on a real trip, it would have been a major p.i.t.a.

--David.

[christopherG]

OK, brian's technical responses are always well thought-out and i admire that curious and inquisitive nature of his; but what about "old faithful", the standard 350? really cheap, in comparison, and apparently the biggest-selling submersible of them all...so, david? are you, too, becoming a major player in the gearhead stakes?

[Guest guest]

Apparently David is indeed becoming a major gearhead. If you read a parallel thread, he is now consuming kayaks, and without even cooking them first.

[Richard N]

My experience....

I've been using a Vertex Standard (Standard Horizon) Model No. HX470S for over a year without any problems.

It's been slammed, dropped, submerged and sprayed for over a year.

Although it has been to hell and back, it's still "ticking".

Works like a charm!

The 470's improved design incorporates a drop-in charger that eliminated the troublesome charging port. The rugged magnesium case has shock absorbing rubber on the lower corners.

Sure..... it costs a little than other models, but it has proven to be extremely durable and reliable.

[http://www.vxstd.com/en/products/products_marine.html]

If it should ever die......I would immediately, without question, buy another.

Richard

Living to learn.

Romany White, Blue trim

[Guest guest]

Have you consider the West Marine brand radios, VHF 50, 100, & 200? I have the VHF200 and I am quite satified, it was a BIG upgrade from the Standard Radio that had problems with the antenna in the first month of owning it. I admit I haven't put this radio though the rigors of wearing it on my PFD (& probably never will) but at $220 for the VHF200 it certainly feels robust, it meets the same submersible standards as the Standards and Imcoms, it has a good battery, and my experience with West Marine is they are very good about returns. If the VHF50 is built anything like the VHF200 I wouldn't even consider anything else. And the VHF50 is on sale right now for $150.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/store...roductId=132279

http://mastercatalog04.westmarine.com/0057...ckProdId=132279

David Mooradd

[alcoons]

Note that the ICOM-M88 is not easy to mount on the shoulder strap of a PFD unless someone has had more luck than I have. The belt attachment that comes with it is actually a horizontal clip. There are no other attachment options available from ICOM.

I did find a solution by sewing both a vertical and horizontal elastic bands into my shoulder strap and sewing them together where they cross. The radio slips in from the corner. Have not used it in the field yet. We will see.

Al Coons

[djlewis]

Yep.. I saw those house models on the West marine website and wondered. You make them sound attractive, but until I've heard from a couple of people who've abused and dunked them a lot on a pfd, I think I'll pass. I've already lost $200 on one radio now, and am not in the mood to experiment. So, I'm going with the voice of experience.

Al: didn't someone here say that the IC-M88 fits on the same mount as the Std Horizons? If so, then I'm all set, since that mount is presently strapped nicely to my pfd strap. If not...

--David.

[Brian Nystrom]

The M88 and 460 clips are slightly different, but the radios interchange just fine. I've been using my M88 in a 460 clip all along.

I tested the Uniden Voyager as well. Neither the M88 or 460 fit the Voyager clip. The Voyager button doesn't lock into the M88 or 460 clips, but you can install the button from the 460 on the Voyager, making it compatible.

Is this confusing enough?

[Brian Nystrom]

Yes, these are indeed interesting. I'd feel more comfortable with them if I knew who made them. Keep in mind that the infamous HX460 is JIS-7 rated, so that by itself apparently means very little. Still, these are worth checking out. I'll have to contact West Marine to see if I can get some samples to test.

[Brian Nystrom]

The mounting clips for the M88 and the HX460 are nearly identical, so much so that the radios will interchange in each others clips.

Here are the clips, M88 on the left and HX460 on the right:

http://community.webshots.com/s/image11/8/...02pwyNDZ_ph.jpg

Note that they attach in exactly the same manner. All that is required is a wire tie and a small shim, taped in place to keep the clip from sliding through the wire tie. It literally takes five minutes to do this.

Here are the radios mounted in each other's clips:

http://community.webshots.com/s/image12/8/...36JYzPiE_ph.jpg

More photos of this setup are viewable at:

http://community.webshots.com/album/63141273BimkGp

[Guest guest]

It seems like fried VHF radios are a constant problem even those claimed to be submersible. I've always used a waterproof pouch even with a submersible radio. Other than ease of use issues, can someone explain why so many folks don't seem use them?

Jill

[ccarlson]

As much as I would like the double protection of a pouch, for me, the ease-of-use issue is the main reason I went to a "submersible" that can ride naked on my pfd. Trying to operate the controls through the pouch was a major headache with my previous "waterproof" radio. Also, with the unit in a bag, there is no good way to fix it to the pfd such that it can be used without extracting it from a pocket which can sometimes be tricky in any kind of bumpy water.

Radios with only pushbuttons and no knobs may be better candidates for use in a pouch. Then, perhaps something could be rigged to attach the bagged unit to the pfd.

[Brian Nystrom]

As Carl stated, having a radio in a bag makes it much less useful, as does having it stowed in a pocket. It also attenuates the volume. When you really need to use a radio, you often do not have the luxury of using both hands. Shoulder mounting a submersible radio makes one hand operation easy.

In talking with Chris Cunningham, he mentioned a problem that I hadn't heard of. If there is any dampness inside the bag, the pressure buildup that occurs on a warm day can actually force the moisture into the radio. He's had a couple that died that way. Perhaps you need to toss some silica gel in the bag, just in case.

[donperry]

I bought a submersible pushbutton Garmin VHF a few years ago following an exemplary late-fall incident off Sachuest Point in Middletown, RI.

We were paddling into south-south-westerly seas from Purgatory Chasm on the way to Third Beach. It was a slow and wet going slug fest into the waves until we reached Sachuest Point and turned northeastward for the mile-long downhill run to Island Rocks where things would settle down some.

We made the turn close to the point where the waves were steeper and my partner went over the side. We drifted about a quarter mile while getting everything back into the boat. During that time the swimmer got cold, even with a wetsuit, and once back on board wanted to go ashore immediately. I took one look at the bone-breaking surf bashing onto the rocks and said: “Noooo Way!” So we did a contact tow to the Island Rocks where it was calmer and thing were OK.

Apparently someone onshore called 911 during the yard sale and alerted the rescue dogs. I first saw the Middletown EMT’s ambulance on the closed access road in the wildlife refuge. Later I learned they were getting ready to launch the CG helicopter from Newport. They disappeared for awhile before reappearing on the emergency lane to Flint Point. Two rescue swimmers half clad in wetsuits were ready to go and shouting at us with a bullhorn. My partners cell phone was wet and useless. I had to leave her and paddle close enough to explain the situation and our intended destination a half mile away. By then it was getting dark enough for headlamps. They met us at the Third Beach ramp and my partner warmed up in the ambulance while I loaded up the gear.

That incident changed my mind about carrying a VHF. Separating from my tired partner to get within earshot of the EMT’s could have made matters needlessly worse. Things were under control and I would not have used the radio to call for help at any point during the event. But the lack of communication needlessly tied up rescue resources that might have been needed elsewhere. Knowing our status would help them and someone else if another emergency call came in. If we did need assistance, I would want to tell them where to meet us.

West Marine had the Garmin VHF on clearance at an affordable price. I carried it onboard for the rest of the season without a waterproof pouch. It’s got a variety of substantial battery packs and is not something I would clip on a PFD. Next season I got a GAIA pouch for floatation and found that it works pretty well in the pouch. I least I’ve got something reliable onboard for the emergencies that can develop.

But I seldom actually use the radio. If I were to become a more active participant in channel chatter I’d like something smaller, lighter and more PFD friendly.

[alcoons]

Thanks Brian.

Ah. My fault. I asked about this situation here about a month ago, but I guess you did not see my post. I looked at your great site and probably did not browse far enough ahead to see the specific solution.

Now I have a use for my knife. I can use it to cut off the useless rig I just sewed into my PFD

Thanks,

Al

>The mounting clips for the M88 and the HX460 are nearly

>identical, so much so that the radios will interchange in

>each others clips.

>

>Here are the clips, M88 on the left and HX460 on the right:

>

>http://community.webshots.com/s/image11/8/...02pwyNDZ_ph.jpg

>

>Note that they attach in exactly the same manner. All that

>is required is a wire tie and a small shim, taped in place

>to keep the clip from sliding through the wire tie. It

>literally takes five minutes to do this.

>

>

>Here are the radios mounted in each other's clips:

>

>http://community.webshots.com/s/image12/8/...36JYzPiE_ph.jpg

>

>

>More photos of this setup are viewable at:

>

>http://community.webshots.com/album/63141273BimkGp

[djlewis]

My radio story is a bit simpler, but particularly illustrates the value of a naked radio on the pfd, ready for quick action.

I was playing in some rocks and got caught in a pool pretty much out of sight of everybody else, with a series of tall rocks blocking the view. I wasn't really in any trouble, though it took me perhaps 10-15 seconds to orient myself in close quarters and find the channel out. As I did that, I very quickly pushed the talk button on my radio which lay close to my right ear and said "David here -- I'm OK -- out in a second". When I emerged a few seconds later, there was Lisa wating for me, looking anxious, obviously glad to see me. She said she was within a hair of going in after me until she heard my radio call, and then decided to wait a bit. So, that call saved her from dashing in to save me from no actual danger, and quite possibly getting two boats tangled up in a tight spot.

--David.

[Brian Nystrom]

>Ah. My fault. I asked about this situation here about a

>month ago, but I guess you did not see my post.

I thought that I responded to it, which is why I was surprised at this post. Perhaps I did miss it.

>I looked at

>your great site and probably did not browse far enough ahead

>to see the specific solution.

Oh, well.

>Now I have a use for my knife. I can use it to cut off the

>useless rig I just sewed into my PFD

That's the way to put a positive spin on things!

[Richard N]

It appears that the 470 (new last year) has been replaced by model #471.

I haven't found any apparent difference between the units except for the change in model number. Features, functions and appearance appear to be the same.

The real good news is that if you find a 470, Standard Horizon is offering a $50.00 rebate through June 2004.

[http://www.standardhorizon.com/through%20June%2004.pdf]

You may be able to find a closeout price less than $300.00.

Applying the $50.00 rebate would bring the price to around $250.00

"Now That's A Bargain".

Richard

Living to learn.

Romany White, Blue trim

[djlewis]

I dropped by West Marine to look at the ICOM M88 and the West Marine house line, VHF50, 100, 200.

Of the latter, only the VHF50 ($150 on sale) has the compact form factor of the Std Horizon 460-470 series, Uniden Voyager, and ICOM M-88. The VHF100 and 200 are taller and heavier (though the pictures are a tad misleading on that). Here's the 100.

http://www.westmarine.com/images/thumb/35347vhf100_t.jpg

http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/35347vhf100_f.jpg

The VHF50 looks like a nice unit for the price. Being knobless, you change the volume and squelch level by pushing a button to select the function (squelch or volume) and then use the up and down arrows which are normally used to change the channel. I'm a tad skeptical about performing those functions that way with a radio on a pfd strap in conditions, especially if you've turned the volume down to quiet extraneous traffic, and then need to quickly turn it back up to communicate with your own group. This arrangement also makes the buttons smaller, since there are more of them. Here it is...

http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/5471503.jpg

Beyond that, I did not get into any other functions of the West Marine VHF50.

As for the ICOM IC-M88, I did not realize that it is rather thick compared to the Std Horizons, because of its larger battery. Is that because of its nice long charge, or because it's Li-ion, or both? But it still seems fine to lash to a pfd strap.

So, I still think I'm going to go with the M88. I've seen it for $250 less the $50 rebate, so it's only $50 more than the West Marine 50, and seems like a lot more radio.

Of course, if Herr Doktor Professor Nystrom had already written his article, we'd know even more. OTOH, he is giving us lovely and useful previews.

--David.

[Brian Nystrom]

I think they added an espresso maker and a toaster. ;-)

The HX471 is truly the Swiss Army Knife of handheld VHFs. I'm not sure what the difference is (and Standard Horizon's web site is down), but the HX470 was only out for a few months before the HX471 came out. Based on that and the model numbers, it sounds like an engineering change or something similar.

[Brian Nystrom]

David asked:

>As for the ICOM IC-M88, I did not realize that it is rather

>thick compared to the Std Horizons, because of its larger

>battery. Is that because of its nice long charge, or because

>it's Li-ion, or both?

Actually, I think it's due to the fact that it has a plastic case over a metal frame, where most radios seem to have one or the other. It's got a somewhat chunky, rugged feel to it and AFAIK, it's the only small VHF that meets military specs.

>But it still seems fine to lash to a pfd strap.

Agreed. I haven't found it to be any different from the 460 in that regard.

>So, I still think I'm going to go with the M88. I've seen it

>for $250 less the $50 rebate, so it's only $50 more than the

>West Marine 50, and seems like a lot more radio.

>

>Of course, if Herr Doktor Professor Nystrom had already

>written his article, we'd know even more. OTOH, he is

>giving us lovely and useful previews.

We'll be adding the West Marine 50 and 100 to the article.