July 27 Manchester Trip

[Bill Lord]

Thank you David and Adam for leading this trip- ooh, sorry, this was a CAM trip, there were no leaders. Really though, I appreciate your guidance and being able to utilize your experience. With your help I can actually get back in my boat, albeit wasn't pretty, I'll get there with practice.

Thanks also to Kevin and Gillian for your help Friday night at Forest River.

Bill

[Bill Gwynn]

Just trying to clarify that CAM does not mean leaderless. It seems to be a very common misunderstanding.

This paragraph is from the NSPN Trip Participation Page:

http://www.nspn.org/trip_participation.htm

Trip Leadership. While on a Common Adventure trip, leadership is a fluid process. If someone knows the area, he assumes a leadership role, helping the group find their way. If there's an accident on the trip and someone has good first aid skills, they assume leadership. If a kayaker capsizes, another person may take over. Major decisions are made democratically as a group, with weight given to those with specialized knowledge. Often it is the trip initiator that guides the democratic process. In this process, everyone is able to express their opinions and shed light on the decision. By involving everyone, the group is able to tap all of its resources, making it far stronger than if one person tries to make all of the decisions.

[EEL]

Just trying to clarify that CAM does not mean leaderless. It seems to be a very common misunderstanding.

This paragraph is from the NSPN Trip Participation Page:

http://www.nspn.org/trip_participation.htm

Trip Leadership. While on a Common Adventure trip, leadership is a fluid process. If someone knows the area, he assumes a leadership role, ..... Major decisions are made democratically as a group, with weight given to those with specialized knowledge.

I agree there seems to be confusion/misunderstanding about "CAM trips" and the apparently seldom read NSPN materials provide clarification. In the spirit of discussion, I posit a few thoughts on the concept. I believe there needs to be a recognition of the distinction between the person who takes on the task of supplying superior skills/knowledge to meet a demand and the overall "leader". They do not need, obviously, to be the same person nor is it necessary for "overall leadership" to move from one person to another. I like the term trip initiator as opposed to leader since indicates the person proposing the trip is just that, proposing a trip, and participants should not expect that person to have any particular skills nor should they expect/rely upon that person to save their bacon or be the know all and be all. I'm dubious about the concept of democracy as applied in this setting. Perhaps that is because I do not know what is meant. If it means a discussion/debate occurs, a vote is taken and the majority controls; then it seems unworkable except in mild situations which I suppose does describe most trips. While I totally agree with the concept of trips being taken by active participants, sometimes it is simply necessary for decisions to be made quickly and decisively. To me that means someone, who should listen to those who have a clue, needs to be able to decide and implement a course of action for the group without building a consensus from all participants.

I believe the concepts of CAM derive from programs used in an educational setting, which might well have been rather controlled in terms of perceived risk v. actual risk, where certain pedagogical outcomes were the desired end result. So some adaption seems necessary to suit the purposes of a paddling club's trips.

Ed Lawson

[Bill Lord]

I am sorry you misunderstood my comment. It was meant to be humerous. We had a beach meeting prior to departure and discussed that very subject. Everyone in the group was familiar with the CAM concept and that leadership would, in fact, be present and that it is a fluid concept and would generally default to the more experienced person in any given circumstance. After we arrived at Misery Island, had our practice session and lunch, we had another meeting and decided to divide into three groups, each with a different destination and purpose. All in a democratic process, under the CAM model so it does seem to be working.

Bill

[Bill Gwynn]

I am sorry you misunderstood my comment. It was meant to be humerous. We had a beach meeting prior to departure and discussed that very subject. Everyone in the group was familiar with the CAM concept and that leadership would, in fact, be present and that it is a fluid concept and would generally default to the more experienced person in any given circumstance. After we arrived at Misery Island, had our practice session and lunch, we had another meeting and decided to divide into three groups, each with a different destination and purpose. All in a democratic process, under the CAM model so it does seem to be working.

Bill

Understood. My point is that there does seem to be a wide spread misunderstanding about CAM. So, every time I see a comment about "no leaders" I tend to react in an effort to dispel these misunderstandings. Glad you guys had a good trip.

[Bill Gwynn]

I agree there seems to be confusion/misunderstanding about "CAM trips" and the apparently seldom read NSPN materials provide clarification. In the spirit of discussion, I posit a few thoughts on the concept. I believe there needs to be a recognition of the distinction between the person who takes on the task of supplying superior skills/knowledge to meet a demand and the overall "leader". They do not need, obviously, to be the same person nor is it necessary for "overall leadership" to move from one person to another. I like the term trip initiator as opposed to leader since indicates the person proposing the trip is just that, proposing a trip, and participants should not expect that person to have any particular skills nor should they expect/rely upon that person to save their bacon or be the know all and be all. I'm dubious about the concept of democracy as applied in this setting. Perhaps that is because I do not know what is meant. If it means a discussion/debate occurs, a vote is taken and the majority controls; then it seems unworkable except in mild situations which I suppose does describe most trips. While I totally agree with the concept of trips being taken by active participants, sometimes it is simply necessary for decisions to be made quickly and decisively. To me that means someone, who should listen to those who have a clue, needs to be able to decide and implement a course of action for the group without building a consensus from all participants.

I believe the concepts of CAM derive from programs used in an educational setting, which might well have been rather controlled in terms of perceived risk v. actual risk, where certain pedagogical outcomes were the desired end result. So some adaption seems necessary to suit the purposes of a paddling club's trips.

Ed Lawson

My take on the democratic process is as follows. At the beach briefing, there should be introductions where each persons talks about their paddling experience and skills. So, we all now know which paddlers will most likely emerge as leaders. Personally, I like the idea of a leader being chosen at the start of the trip. That leader can make decisions for the group, consult with the group and continue to lead until the group decides otherwise. The only real difference between a CAM trip and a guided/lead trip is that the group has the right and are encouraged to provide input. So, on any trip, if something goes wrong, if you have chosen a competent leader at the start, that person can make the quick decisions necessary to effectively manage the situation. As I said at the start here, sometimes additional leaders emerge when situations arise. Hopefully, with the guidance of your chosen leader, and assistance from the group, you will never have a situation that cannot be easily handled. In my experience, the only time I have seen "democratic voting" is when we are trying to decide such trivial things as where we will stop for lunch