Gillian Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 lots of swells and some wind to practice in - show n go's always seem to be the way to get a nice group of paddlers out on the water . . . it was nice to see some new faces out there that i haven't paddled with before including rick and sal . . . kevin and brian and i were talking and think that the cam model is kind of not so great when it comes to practical application . . . we noticed it on the solstice, and today . . . it will be interesting to hear how people start modifying the concept to make it feel more like nspn trips used to feel in terms of more formal organization . . . . still a great day on the water and loving the new avocet even though i gotta get a better seat in there - have some NICE bruises right where the thighs hit the edge of the seat . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillian Posted June 29, 2008 Author Share Posted June 29, 2008 lots of swells and some wind to practice in - show n go's always seem to be the way to get a nice group of paddlers out on the water . . . it was nice to see some new faces out there that i haven't paddled with before including rick and sal . . . kevin and brian and i were talking and think that the cam model is kind of not so great when it comes to practical application . . . we noticed it on the solstice, and today . . . it will be interesting to hear how people start modifying the concept to make it feel more like nspn trips used to feel in terms of more formal organization . . . . still a great day on the water and loving the new avocet even though i gotta get a better seat in there - have some NICE bruises right where the thighs hit the edge of the seat . . . The main problem with the practical application of CAM is that "major decisions are made democratically by the group." I have now had the chance to see this fail 3 out of 3 times on the water, where the group cannot come to a consensus. (Kevin posting under Gillian's name). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathyfoley Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 The main problem with the practical application of CAM is that "major decisions are made democratically by the group." I have now had the chance to see this fail 3 out of 3 times on the water, where the group cannot come to a consensus. (Kevin posting under Gillian's name).[/quotI think CAM will take a while for the adjustment. NSPN has been a group of leaders and followers.....mostly followers. If everyone is too "politically correct", CAM is a difficult concept. Natural leaders, as Bill posted, should arise out of the group. I can't imagine too many situations in paddling with a Rick S. or Rick C. or a Jed L, where they would not naturally lead the group. That said, you don't have to be a 5 star paddler to be a leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaila_27 Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I posted the *few* pics that I took of the trip. They should be in the gallery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 i didn't lead the group because it's been a long time since i've paddled with the club. i wanted to see how they were run, what would happen....maybe mine doesn't always have to be the voice heard...if i set back, others get a chance to lead. besides, while there were real challenges for some folks there really wasn't too much risk...there were plenty of competent paddlers around. so, yeah, my first CAM and i think it needs to be tweaked. there's nothing that says someone can't assume that leadership role by consensus from the get go within CAM...is there? so why not have that most seasoned paddler very much do what the old trips used to do - beach briefing, set a sweep, keep the group together at the minimum? if the idea is mentoring/education then get it going from the launch. in all i had fun. and yes, that's the last time i'm even a little quiet on the water! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 ....maybe mine doesn't always have to be the voice heard...if i set back, others get a chance to lead. besides, while there were real challenges for some folks there really wasn't too much risk...there were plenty of competent paddlers around. so, yeah, my first CAM and i think it needs to be tweaked. there's nothing that says someone can't assume that leadership role by consensus from the get go within CAM...is there? so why not have that most seasoned paddler very much do what the old trips used to do - in all i had fun. and yes, that's the last time i'm even a little quiet on the water! Some idle observations from someone who was not there and would still be clueless if they had been. I remain confused as to whether there is a difference between club CAM trips and "old" S&G trips, but this trip was listed as a S&G without any indication of what it was, where it would go, and what the focus would be. Fair enough, but I have assumed a "real" club CAM trip would be announced with some of that info to enable a broader range of members to evaluate it. Over the past couple of years the predominate style of trip, as opposed to all the practice sessions( hey, you practice to do something..like take trips don't you...or is practice an end unto itself) announced on the NSPN site has been S&Gs. I suspect these vary greatly. By example, there has been a fairly consistent group paddling out of Portsmouth and it has been rather loose mainly because we know each other, we have similar interests while paddling, and having paddled together for awhile we "know" what is going to go on. I have always assumed that if a S&G is announced with no focus, etc. a huge dose of caveat emptor is warranted. Unfortunately, as the "regular" club trips essentially vanished, others are more likely to come to such S&Gs which is totally understandable, but the dynamic changes completely and it becomes easy to have things fall apart because not everyone is on the same page...heck, they may not have the same book. I don't think the most experienced paddlers who participates need or even should take a leadership role unless circumstances are such that their skills/advice/instruction become important as in a difficult rescue or talking an inexperienced paddler through the process of easily getting onshore through surf. You don't need to be a super paddler to decide on a focus for a trip, to tell people to generally stay together and to be honest about when they think its get to be a bit much, and to occasionally look to see if a paddler is becoming tentative, going too far out because the breaks near shore scare them, or don't seem to know what's coming when the ledge next to them is suddenly uncovered. Rather I think the most experienced paddlers on a trip announced by someone else should basically do as Rick did which I assume is to be just another participant, but ready to help if anything happens and to provide some counsel, especially to the person who announced the trip, if things start to go awry. On the other side of the coin, I believe all participants have an obligation to speak up and ask where are we going, what are we going to be doing on this trip, how long, what pace, if you want to play in dumping surf what about the rest of us? They also have the obligation to check the WX and conditions, have a chart, or at least know the area, be equipped for the trip, and not be shy about saying this is over my head or I need help with this. If I understand the CAM concept as it applies to club trips as opposed to educational settings, it assumes all participants are active participants, but there also needs to be someone who assumes the role of delineating the basics as well as flexibility so that the best folks to handle a given situation or make a certain type of decision, whether the leader or not, do so and feel free to do so. I don't think democracy is pat of that process, frankly. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I hope that the discussion of CAM (rather than the trip report) can be moved to the main discussion area so we can all benefit from it. Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 I agree with the statements about CAM above. Here are some more observations: 1) It is easy to misinterpret CAM as suggesting there is no leadership. When I ask Kevin yesterday, he said the CAM allows various models from an active leadership to very little. 2) As I have said often before, I do not believe level 2 paddlers have enough knowledge to make good decisions about the appropriateness of trips. Where would they gain this knowledge, particularly as they work their way towards level 3 trips? They have not experienced significant waves, wind, weather or distance. This comes from experience. 3) While the CAM model places no legal responsibility on the individual for others, I think we need to be very careful with how clear we are about the level of collective support/supervision each trip is going to provide. This is particularly true for trips with lower-level paddlers, unknown paddlers, and conditions that end up near the more difficult end of the range described in the posting. 4) For example, one trip might make it clear that the group will stay together with a sweep. It might also encourage padders who are unsure of the appropriateness of the trip to discuss it on or offline. It might even mention a decision point if the conditions are near the high-end of the posted level. 5) Yes, we have to be careful not to slip over the line into suggesting that there is a formal leader of the trip, but we have managed to do that well in posting S&Gs in the past. Some are very clear about expectations, support, and the appropriateness of trip for different paddlers. While these trips had collective decision making, they also had beach briefings. These groups often appreciate informal leadership. Paddlers reading those posting had a different feeling from the minimal posting that simply states when, where, and level. Each type of trip has its place in the CAM model. In fact, there is probably a continuum of level of support that is possible under CAM. 6) I know that everyone in the club will help a paddler in any kind of discomfort or distress when called upon. What we need to make sure is that paddlers are supported in making the right decisions before and during a trip. Not all paddlers can do this on their own with the advice of those with more experience. Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinfre Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I've been holding my tongue on this topic since I'm a relatively new & unskilled paddler, and since I think I understand the reasons for going to CAM, and since I wanted to see at least a few instances of it being implemented, and since I've never led a paddling trip myself. I have however led winter & summer day hikes in the White Mountains for the AMC for 5 years, and it seems to me that counting on natural leaders to arise is potentially risky. I think it's important that there's a knowledgable person in charge and that participants know who that is _ahead of time_. Assuming that someone will take a leadership role in an emergency makes me uncomfortable. What if nobody does it? What if someone does, but not all participants realize it? A leader needs to know their job ahead of time, and participants need to know who to listen to if things start to go bad. That being said, I understand that the practical application of CAM is a work in progress, and ideas like Rick's ("How to do a Beach Briefing") are a big help. Hopefully I'll be able to make my own contribution like initiating a CAM trip soon, rather than just kibitzing. Kevin Fredette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 That being said, I understand that the practical application of CAM is a work in progress, and ideas like Rick's ("How to do a Beach Briefing") are a big help. Hopefully I'll be able to make my own contribution like initiating a CAM trip soon, rather than just kibitzing. I rather imagine much will become clearer and much information enabling folks to become active participants on any kayaking paddle will be the result of Rick's event on the 13th. I have no idea who the L2 paddlers are who are reluctant to go on coastal trips since I have no idea what a L2 paddler is, but for those who describe themselves as such I believe Rick's paddle will be a great opportunity to become less reluctant. Look forward to you first trip. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopefloats Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Just from my humble L2 point of view, if surf landings & launchings are involved, that's where I get intimidated and feeling like more of a "timid woodland creature" Dealing with breaking waves is a fear I have yet to conquer in my L2+ growth and would rather work on that more in a skills session before subjecting fellow kayakers to accomodating my lack of surf skill on a trip with a destination. Rick, 'spose that challenge will be a factor on this excursion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Just from my humble L2 point of view, if surf landings & launchings are involved, that's where I get intimidated and feeling like more of a "timid woodland creature" Dealing with breaking waves is a fear I have yet to conquer in my L2+ growth and would rather work on that more in a skills session before subjecting fellow kayakers to accomodating my lack of surf skill on a trip with a destination. Rick, 'spose that challenge will be a factor on this excursion? yeah the L thing is beyond my ken too...i don't know what any of that means... as far as whatever skills or lack thereof you feel you possess....how do you suppose you'll get better if you don't paddle in that environment? come! the point is getting people on the water! IF there is any surf (so...let's say bigger than a foot?) there are other ways to get into shore rather than doing anything in a boat you're aren't comfy with....like getting outta your boat and swimming/floating in? you can swim, yah? there's been more than one trip my boat and i landed at slightly different time! hell, lucky to be on the same stretch of beach! no one is going to "make" you do anything and you won't be holding the group up as we're all going into the 13th with no expectation of a destination just yet. i understand your feeling like you don't want to hold folks up BUT the point of this trip is to review beach briefings and some group dynamic/safety things....determining a route/destinatio and getting someone to shore are a coule of those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Dealing with breaking waves is a fear I have yet to conquer in my L2+ growth and would rather work on that more in a skills session before subjecting fellow kayakers to accomodating my lack of surf skill on a trip with a destination. I rather think the only destination will be enhanced knowledge and confidence. Not only that, I also suspect even someone given to being a bit Rambo can show you ways of landing and launching when there is a bit of surf that do not involve hurtling onto the beach or sliding sideways. I guess I'm L1 since breaking waves instill terror not fear in me, but such is the nature of timid woodland creatures. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I rather think the only destination will be enhanced knowledge and confidence. Not only that, I also suspect even someone given to being a bit Rambo can show you ways of landing and launching when there is a bit of surf that do not involve hurtling onto the beach or sliding sideways. I guess I'm L1 since breaking waves instill terror not fear in me, but such is the nature of timid woodland creatures. Ed Lawson Although not universal, generally L2 refers to those who are as least comfortable in the conditions outlined here: http://www.nspn.org/paddle_levels.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 QUOTE(Kevin B @ Jul 2 2008, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Although not universal, generally L2 refers to those who are as least comfortable in the conditions outlined here: http://www.nspn.org/paddle_levels.htm While the L2 level of one foot surf might seem trivial and boring from one perspective, I have heard more than one highly regarded coach say that long period, waves of a foot or so coming onto a gentle sloping beach is an ideal venue for learning and practicing surfing skills. Once mastered there, it just a matter of gaining confidence through experience and adapting to bigger stuff. So new paddlers and old, timid paddlers can gain a great deal by not just "paddling through" when the sea state is benign because it is easy, but using a comfortable sea state to learn and practice those skils that are associated with "bigger conditions". Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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