Guest Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 My name is John Conlin. I am a graduate student at the Univ. of Rhode Island. My team is working on a marketing class project about product development, and we need to conduct a little research. We're trying to learn about how people purchase their kayaks, and why people might be interested in purchasing sails for their kayaks. Thank you for taking time to fill out this survey. It won't take long, I promise! We are posting the results of this survey (and the raw data, for anyone interested) on our website, http://paddleresearch.blogspot.com/, so feel free to check it out. If you have any questions, please send me an email at john_conlin@mail.uri.edu. Thanks again! Just click this link for the survey: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=55VRgsWkVcBbQEKEOqD6wQ_3d_3d THANKS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 My name is John Conlin. I am a graduate student at the Univ. of Rhode Island. My team is working on a marketing class project about product development, and we need to conduct a little research. We're trying to learn about how people purchase their kayaks, and why people might be interested in purchasing sails for their kayaks. Thank you for taking time to fill out this survey. It won't take long, I promise! We are posting the results of this survey (and the raw data, for anyone interested) on our website, http://paddleresearch.blogspot.com/, so feel free to check it out. If you have any questions, please send me an email at john_conlin@mail.uri.edu. Thanks again! Just click this link for the survey: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=55VRgsWkVcBbQEKEOqD6wQ_3d_3d THANKS! 1st I would make your URL click able: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=55VR...EKEOqD6wQ_3d_3d 2nd: 5. Through which means would you be MOST LIKELY to purchase a kayak sail: should include the internet.... Any reason that 7 & 9 don't have the same ranges? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scamlin Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 Tried to complete the survey but could not: Section 2. Kayak Use, Question 2. There was no radio button for "Other" so when I filled in my answer, it rejected it and would not let me continue the survey. My answer is Outfitter. Someone in the paddlesports business (a kayak school, a teacher, a guide service) that sells new kayaks but does not have a retail store. There are a lot of them in New England. I'd suggest another category: Used A significant percentage of kayaks in our club are bought used, but that may not be relevant to your marketing survey. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 I'd suggest another category: Used A significant percentage of kayaks in our club are bought used, but that may not be relevant to your marketing survey. Scott Yep, one of my boats I bought used and if I could have found a used model of the other two boats I have used when I was ready to buy I'd have gone for the used boat over the new one. As for sails.... (prepare for me laying on the personal opinion really thick :-) )sails are for vessels that have a keel and a tiller/wheel+rudder (real kayaks don't have rudders... begin flame war ). You couldn't even pay me to use a sail on a kayak. Not that it isn't done but in my opinion... 1) it's a liability. 2) Ya can't roll with a sail and kayaks are designed to be able to roll. I windsurf as well. Hardest part about windsurfing is getting that damn sail out of the water. At 8 pounds per gallon water is pretty damn heavy. 3) Murphy's law of kayaking and wind states that whilst kayaking on a northerly heading you will have winds from the north. If you change your heading 180º the wind will clock 180º (that same law seems to apply to cycling as well). The problem is that on a kayak (you're talking about a vessels with a 21.5" beam) you have no ballast underneath the boat. That means that you can't heal the boat. If you can't heal then a sail on a kayak is really only good for going downwind (and even if you could umm... healing in a kayak initiates a turn so again... not so useful). Well.... the predominant winds where I paddle usually blow out of the south west so unless I plan on doing a 236 nautical mile crossing to Nova Scotia (and fwiw I'd rather watch paint dry ), a sail is pretty darn useless (and even if I was I wouldn't use it... again, ya can't roll with a sail... at least not easily). Again... these are just my opinions but I think that selling a sail to sea kayakers would be a tough sell. Now... make me a rigid boat that weighs 15 pounds, is bullet proof and is easy to repair in the field should someone find an armor piercing rock... that would get me excited (and have it cost no more than a standard 'glass boat). Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 Oh yeah... 4... In heavy winds if the wind is abeam rolling up from the leeward side can potentially present a challenge (rolling up from the windward side can present a challenge as well... it can knock ya right back down). Now... that's with only your torso and a paddle blade exposed to the wind. Add a sail to that equation and you have a real problem, even in light winds (the sail essentially places weight at a high center of gravity and this is not something that is particularly agreeable with a kayak... unless you hang a pontoon off of either side but then you don't have a kayak anymore, you have a trimaran). Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 Ya bloodied 'im good, Joe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 My name is John Conlin. I am a graduate student at the Univ. of Rhode Island. My team is working on a marketing class project about product development, and we need to conduct a little research. We're trying to learn about how people purchase their kayaks, and why people might be interested in purchasing sails for their kayaks. Thank you for taking time to fill out this survey. It won't take long, I promise! We are posting the results of this survey (and the raw data, for anyone interested) on our website, http://paddleresearch.blogspot.com/, so feel free to check it out. If you have any questions, please send me an email at john_conlin@mail.uri.edu. Thanks again! Just click this link for the survey: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=55VRgsWkVcBbQEKEOqD6wQ_3d_3d THANKS! John, Brave of you to ply these waters, but you have to learn how to write a questionnaire. The fact that your query flow requires INTEREST in buying/needing a kayak sail in order to register a response will severely skew your results. Indeed your current 78 responses indicate such. Your sample pool also indicates a predominantly young male bent, which is not representative of seakayakers in the northeast. Joe's reasonings for why a sail on a kayak is like a battery-operated pencil are sound and thorough. Be careful how much seed money you put into this venture. This is the kind of product that is tried once then gets stored behind the garage. We'd suggest that you put your time toward fashioning a lightweight, ADJUSTABLE, retrofittable seat for kayak use. See the Necky Chatham (strong competitor at $40) and Valley (lousy at $75) examples. Our aging sore butts need your help! Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Ya bloodied 'im good, Joe! Didn't mean to draw any blood... just offering my unfiltered opinions. 'twould be a shame for them to spend money to find there's not much of a market. That's not to say that there isn't a market for a recreational paddle/sail kind of boat but in order to accomplish that you need a purpose designed boat. Hobie kinda of has that niche down but then again... ya don't really paddle those boats... you pedal them. And as I said... it's a trimaran, not really a kayak. Check out the Hobie Mirage Adventure Island as an example: http://www.hobiecat.com/adventure-island/m...ure_island.html I'd suggest that if they ultimately do decide to pursue this that they all take some sea kayaking lessons and some sailing lessons. I think that would change their outlook. Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 John, Brave of you to ply these waters, but you have to learn how to write a questionnaire. The fact that your query flow requires INTEREST in buying/needing a kayak sail in order to register a response will severely skew your results. Indeed your current 78 responses indicate such. Your sample pool also indicates a predominantly young male bent, which is not representative of seakayakers in the northeast. Joe's reasonings for why a sail on a kayak is like a battery-operated pencil are sound and thorough. Be careful how much seed money you put into this venture. This is the kind of product that is tried once then gets stored behind the garage. We'd suggest that you put your time toward fashioning a lightweight, ADJUSTABLE, retrofittable seat for kayak use. See the Necky Chatham (strong competitor at $40) and Valley (lousy at $75) examples. Our aging sore butts need your help! Cheers. John, Ernie is right that measuring interest can bias results. Take a look at the economic research on the subject. Many of the economic experiments undertaken have provided evidence of bias when comparing interest with actual purchasing behavior. As for the young male bias, that can't be seen from the results--the fact that more males of that age group responded to the survey does not imply that the sample is biased. If you're interested in additional input, send me an email at kbeckwith@salemstate.edu. Good luck with the project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Joe, I think you are right on every count (personal opinion); but your spelling sucks! (Having trouble healing a kayak? Try anti-biotics?) I am guessing that, around here, few are interested in anything but <paddling> their sea-kayaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scamlin Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 Joe: Any serious kayak racer will tell you a rudder is essential to be competitive in a race. Ask Verlen Krueger, the ultimate long distance kayaker, with over 100,000 under his hull, whether real kayaks have rudders. See http://www.krugercanoes.com/ I always considered Easy Rider Kayaks to be the leading production line of kayaks with sailing rigs. They have been used for some serious expeditions. Well-thought out, modular and the outrigger models with arefoils are able to beat into the wind. See http://www.easyriderkayaks.com/ I heard Ken Fink give a presentation in 2006 on an expedition with folding kayaks where they rigged the kayaks into catamarans somewhere in the south Pacific; they did some serious crossings between islands (into the ball park of your Nova Scotia trip) using sails. Ed Gillette's famous unsupported 62-day crossing from California to Hawaii was accomplished with kite sails in a production Tofino (Necky double). I'd say that was a pretty serious kayak trip. I guess my point is different strokes for differnt kayaks. It depends what you want to do with your kayak. It's a big world and there's gotta be room for sails on kayaks for those who need them and take the time to master them. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scamlin Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 Here's a link to Ed Gillette's account of his trip to Hawaii: http://www.legendinc.com/Pages/MarbleheadN...EdGillette.html Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 Joe: Any serious kayak racer will tell you a rudder .... That comment was to be taken with a grain of salt (like Mac vs. PC, Canon vs. Nikon, Chevy vs. Ford, etc.). Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 I guess my point is different strokes for differnt kayaks. It depends what you want to do with your kayak. It's a big world and there's gotta be room for sails on kayaks for those who need them and take the time to master them. Scott I'm looking at this from the point of view of a small business owner. How many sails have I seen on kayaks in this area? Zero. Is there a practical application for a sail on a sea kayak (remember, this is an aftermarket item for a non-purpose build boat... the sail is being tacked on as an afterthought) enough so to have broad range appeal to the mass market thus making it a worthwhile business venture? Not in my opinion. The examples you have sighted are either purpose built vessels engineered with a sail in mind or, significant effort was taken after the fact to rig a system where the sail would be practical and safe to use. Even then the application sighted was for a very specific application and the circumstances are rather extreme (i.e. absolutely zero mass market appeal). If I'm not mistaken the original poster was interested in designing a product for a sea kayak. As I mentioned before in order for this to work the paddler would need to be able to counter balance the high center of gravity caused by a sale. Seeing as sea kayaks don't have lead weighted keels and seeing as the paddler can't get out of their cockpit to counter lean as one does on a small sailboat (that has a centerboard but not a weighted keel such as a windsurfer or a sunfish) the only direction you could go without doing something rather extreme (like rigging a system to turn two kayaks into a catamaran for stability.... but even then catamarans require the passengers to move to the windward side of the boat) would be downwind. So... if ya like sails I got nothin' against you or them however, if you're thinking about sinking money into the development of an aftermarket sail for sea kayaks... you may as well set a pile of cash on fire (said in a joking manner). Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 Joe, I think you are right on every count (personal opinion); but your spelling sucks! (Having trouble healing a kayak? Try anti-biotics?) :HaHa: :HaHa: :HaHa: :HaHa: You know... I was looking at that whilst typing that response and I just KNEW that something looked wrong but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. FWIW when kayaks get sick, usually a topical ointment won't do the trick. What you need is an orthopedic surgeon!!! Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 :HaHa: :HaHa: :HaHa: :HaHa: You know... I was looking at that whilst...WHILST? Yup...still ok.http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-avoid-...cuddling-in-bedcouldn't resist.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 It looks like these kayak sails work on sea kayaks http://www.pacificaction.com/ the web site has a few videos including this one: I didn't notice any videos of rolling with it. As for me I think that I rather spend my kayak $'s on a dry bag that's water proof to 300' : http://www.thewaterproofstore.com/watershed.html as I would use it more than a sail. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 You know... I was looking at that whilst... WHILST? Yup...still ok. http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-avoid-...cuddling-in-bed couldn't resist.... I was just pondering this problem the other day. I always thought someone should manufacture a bed with an arm shaped divot for your arm or just a hole that you could stick it through (your arm.. YOUR ARM). Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scamlin Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Joe: Point well taken about the potential for mass markets if your business is kayak sails. However, your original post on the topic was mostly not about markets, but rather about the absurdity of using sails on kayaks and some specific opinions about their technical limitations. It was the latter two points that I was responding to. If it was all in jest, I missed it. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 a dry bag that's water proof to 300' : http://www.thewaterproofstore.com/watershed.html Yeah, but good for travel -- like that romantic trip you've always wanted to take on the Titanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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