Honda Civic and boat hauling

[Paul Sylvester]

Want to hear from Civic owners or others that drive the small 4 cylinder cars. No subies please, I only care about 34-36 mpg cars and I get 25.5 mpg in my Buick now.

When you put one or two 18' kayaks on these small cars can you make headway in a wind?

Do they bog down and not go above certain speeds because they are working so hard?

Yes, I understand gas mileage would take a beating, my concerns are only with keeping up at hiway speeds without killing it and bogging down excessively.

It would be a auto transmission. I am all done with sticks.

thanks for you thoughts

[bob budd]

You might want to ask Liz what she is driving. I recall she was driving a rather small car and always seemed to be making excellent headway.

[eneumeier]

Liz was driving a Mazda MX-6 that did not get particularly great mileage. (She now drives a Saab 9-5 wagon with a really great roof line for hauling kayaks.)

I have no advice on the Civic, which I drove long before I took up kayaking.

If anyone is getting a car with a short roof line, I still have the extension bars and feet needed for a Thule set up to work. Glad to share them for small change or a case of good beer. :-))

Liz

[ccarlson]

Paul... you're not getting much action here... maybe try posting to paddling.net You'll probably get a hundred responses FWIW, my 90hp VW diesel has no problem doing illegal highway speeds with two boats and a full load of camping gear aboard. Suspect the Civic would be fine but no first-hand experience.

Carl C.

[John Leonard]

Not a Civic, but I have done a bunch of hauling on a 4 cyl 110hp saturn wagon. I never noticed much difference driving with a boat or two on the top except for the noise. Mileage drops from 32-33 down to 27-28 but I haven't had any issues with overheating or performance (what there is of it.) It even dragged two boats, Bob B., and a TON of camping gear to Northern Maine and back without incident. It's an auto with 120,000 miles and no signs of tranny issues.

The only issue I have had with it is some bending and rotting on the roof where the rack mounts, it's come loose a few times. It may not apply to all small cars, but the roof lines may be weaker on some vehicles. It may also be a saturn thing as it's a funky, thin, two piece clamp to get onto the roof while going under the plastic trim....

John

[shewhorn]

I just bought a Mazda 3 GT wagon. It's not the greatest on fuel economy but it's loads better than what I was driving (Subaru WRX which required high octane and got about 23 MPG highway with one yak on it). The Mazda 3 was one of the only cars I could find that could handle a 160 pound load. The rest of them seem to be rated for 120 pounds. The reason I mention this is because I had a traditional Yakima rack on the WRX and the chassis evenutally buckled under the weight of carrying two kayaks. Max spread on that car was 25" so it was the pitching of the boats (even with bow and stern tie downs which I ALWAYS used due to the geometry of the mount) combined with the crappy New England roads in the winter that did it in.

If you do a little bit of homework you can order a roofrack for the 3 that bolts directly into the chassis (no foot pads... you have to order it from England though... for some reason Thule won't sell that in the US) and makes for a much more solid mount point. Downside is that the spread is only 26" if you go that route but since it's bolted to the chassis it's pretty solid. If you go with a Thule rack with regular feet the Mazda 3 has the widest spread of all the cars I looked into at 40" if memory serves me correctly. Mileage wise I can get 30+ on the highway. With a single yak on the roof I get about 26.5 MPG. With 2 yaks it goes down to 25. I do notice a difference in performance but then I used to be into autocrossing and high performance driving so I'm very sensitive to those things. That said I don't feel that power is lacking. Stability wise the Mazda 3's suspension is quite nice due to the geometry and stiffer springs. Even when it's windy the car feels very stable. Not sure how that would be on a car with super soft suspension like a non SI Civic.

I was considering the Civic myself as I really wanted a vehicle that got better mileage but ultimately I decided to compromise as I didn't want a repeat of what happened with the Subaru (with the chassis caving in under the weight). FWIW the 3 that I have has a 155 HP engine (2.3 liter 4 banger). They have another trim level that has a 2.0 liter 4 banger which gets better fuel economy. So far I've been happy with the 3 GT as a kayak hauling machine. It's more convenient with the rear hatch as opposed to a trunk. If you like a more responsive car as well you'll probably enjoy it. Out of the box it has a much better suspension that what Subaru is currently shipping (they dumbed down the suspension on the 2008 unfortunately). Can't speak to the 2008 Civic but when I was doing my research in September last year I found that the 07 Civics were having a rather low reliability rate for Honda (which was very surprising) which was another thing that scared me away from it. I can't imagine that Honda would let that go on for long though. Despite that they were still the king of reliability in '07.

Anyhow... before buying anything I'd suggest visiting both Thule's and Yakima's websites and taking a look at the max bar spread, and the max recommended load for the cars you're considering.

Cheers, Joe

[shewhorn]

BTW... another vehicle that has a rack available that bolts to the chassis is the Mini. I know Sid drives one and he seems to be quite happy with it (not sure if he monitors the boards here or not). The non S version of the Mini gets pretty good fuel economy... on par with the Civic.

Cheers, Joe

[subaruguru]

Want to hear from Civic owners or others that drive the small 4 cylinder cars. No subies please, I only care about 34-36 mpg cars and I get 25.5 mpg in my Buick now.

When you put one or two 18' kayaks on these small cars can you make headway in a wind?

Do they bog down and not go above certain speeds because they are working so hard?

Yes, I understand gas mileage would take a beating, my concerns are only with keeping up at hiway speeds without killing it and bogging down excessively.

It would be a auto transmission. I am all done with sticks.

thanks for you thoughts

Hi Paul,

Just typed a long response comparing the Mazda3 2.0L and Civic and FIT options, but it got lost!

Synopsis: the Honda motors are VERY torque-light (motorcycle heritage), thus bog very quickly when under load...esp with automatic. Ergo-wise, I strongly prefer the M3 to the Civic, but neither will get you mid 30mpg with 'yaks aboard.

Only the Honda FIT has a shot at that lofty an efficiency. Its horrible seat and weird looks are considerable compromises, but its suspension is up to it (better than the Civic's, almost as good as the Mazda's). The problem will of course be its inability to maintain reasonably elevated speed, esp uphill or with the ac on, and great care needs to be exercised in a crosswind.

As Joe related, his 2.3L M3 gets 25mpg kayak-laden. I'd expect about 28mpg for the M3 2.0, maybe the same with the Civic, but better with the FIT, but only under 70mph. Another flawed option might be the Nissan Versa. Unfortunately the best examples of 35-40mpg 5dr hatches are all euro...a great Peugeot 206 comes to mind from awhile back.

Note that the suspension softening Joe refers to is for the 2008 IMPREZA, not the Legacy. A 2000-04 Leg/GT/35th/OB or 2005-2007 Leg/SE/LTD is extraordinarily secure and solid, barely feeling different when kayak-laden. But again, only 25mpg hwy. Apples and oranges, I know....

Try the FIT with a 4" thick Tempurepedic cushion....

Ern

PS I have NO IDEA how the Fit deals with racks and loads, though. You'll be the guinea pig.

[jeffcasey]

Hi Paul -

How about 45 mpg? I dumped my old VW Cabrio (stick) so my son would have an automatic to learn on (at least to start). For mileage, I got a new Prius. Since it had a roof, I also ditched my old trailer that I used for the Cabrio. Although hard-core mileage freaks disdain roof-racks on a Prius, I find that keeping a roof rack with one set of saddles and one set of bike holders hardly drops mileage at all (I use the Yakima, and have a fairing on it to cut wind noise).

I've carried two boats on this rack, and hardly notice, even in wind. Mileage drops a bit, but it drops on the highway anyhow (this is a car that does better in city driving than highway).

The rack fits well, and the only time it budged was my fault (hint: how can you trash the car roof, the roof rack, a bicycle, and the side of the house over the garage all at once?). Since it is a gutter-clamp rack, and not a factory-install (like the Subies), I am doubly paranoid about always using bow and stern lines for disaster containment.

[Pintail]

I would scrub the Mini as a candidate immediately: several years ago I looked at one and thought it tiny inside -- I could not have got more than about two plastic tubs in that back area. I reckon I need at least three tubs' worth of space! (Don't ask which tubs...)

[chetpk]

Ford Focus?

One relative and guy who inspects my car have them and seem satisfied.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/09/17/20...on-the-highway/

[spolitz]

I have a Civic sedan and have had no problems transporting one or two kayaks on typical bar type racks. It does reduce highway mileage about 5 mpg but doesn't this happen with any car? I have driven to the Cape on MassPike/495 loaded with two kayaks and two people and have not had a problem with wind or maintaining highway speed.

I recommend using saddles and bow and stern lines b/c the bars will be pretty close together, making it easy for the boats to turn sideways unless you have something to prevent that.

[spuglisi]

I would scrub the Mini as a candidate immediately: several years ago I looked at one and thought it tiny inside -- I could not have got more than about two plastic tubs in that back area. I reckon I need at least three tubs' worth of space! (Don't ask which tubs...)

Ah! the plastic tub problem....I know it well. They seem to multiply til they have filled whatever space is available.

[Paul Sylvester]

A few thoughts from your responses:

Can't do 24-26k for the Prius, I am just too tight,

Don't like Mini Coopers..... just not me.

I'll check out the others mentioned.

Don't care about the hit you take on mileage when hauling since I only haul one day a week at best.

Really care about the feel on the highway with two boats on top and the strain on the engine.

I used to travel up to the mountains in a 78 Subaru and the thing would not go above 50 up some of the inclines (auto trans) no matter that the pedal was to the floor.

I know that the cars have come along way but am wondering how they fare at 70mph in a headwind.

Really like the new Civic and I can make the numbers work I just need insight (not a Insight) on the hiway details.

Wondering about loads on the roof also.......

Thanks to all,

[spuglisi]

A few thoughts from your responses:

Can't do 24-26k for the Prius, I am just too tight,

Don't like Mini Coopers..... just not me.

I'll check out the others mentioned.

Don't care about the hit you take on mileage when hauling since I only haul one day a week at best.

Really care about the feel on the highway with two boats on top and the strain on the engine.

I used to travel up to the mountains in a 78 Subaru and the thing would not go above 50 up some of the inclines (auto trans) no matter that the pedal was to the floor.

I know that the cars have come along way but am wondering how they fare at 70mph in a headwind.

Really like the new Civic and I can make the numbers work I just need insight (not a Insight) on the hiway details.

Wondering about loads on the roof also.......

Thanks to all,

Just an observation on the "78" subaru. My guess is that the carburetor wasn't able to deal with the cange in air density in the mountains. EFI has solved that problem nicely.

[bob budd]

I know you don't want a Subie plug but for others I would note we don't see a significant (5 mpg was mentioned) drop in mpg when hauling (up to four) boats. We get 25-27 mpg, 'nuff said. I do this in part to mention that due to your reference to roof rack stability I will also mention that it has the highest load rating in class (or did when we bought both of ours).

I understand the once-a-week argument, sadly our non-kayaking mileage also dominates our vehicle usage.

In the days of Daniel Travanti commercials I walked into a Honda dealer to look at an Accord. At that time they weren't negotiating price even with a several thousand dollar markup above sticker. I seriously considered pulling the moustache hairs out of the salesman's smug upper lip but discretion was the better part of valour and I went down the road to purchase a Mazda 626. Never did like the mom-and-dad ride of the Accords several of my friends got. I am getting to the point here. Today perhaps you could find a motivated seller who would let you test-drive an accord with a clip-on rack and one or two boats.

As regards the Prius, if you're like us (and drive a car into the ground) you would likely find with >$3 gas the cost of ownership of the Prius would be less than your alternatives. And you'd be using less oil and contributing to Cheney's health care all the less.

[Paul Sylvester]

I know you don't want a Subie plug but for others I would note we don't see a significant (5 mpg was mentioned) drop in mpg when hauling (up to four) boats. We get 25-27 mpg, 'nuff said. I do this in part to mention that due to your reference to roof rack stability I will also mention that it has the highest load rating in class (or did when we bought both of ours).

I understand the once-a-week argument, sadly our non-kayaking mileage also dominates our vehicle usage.

In the days of Daniel Travanti commercials I walked into a Honda dealer to look at an Accord. At that time they weren't negotiating price even with a several thousand dollar markup above sticker. I seriously considered pulling the moustache hairs out of the salesman's smug upper lip but discretion was the better part of valour and I went down the road to purchase a Mazda 626. Never did like the mom-and-dad ride of the Accords several of my friends got. I am getting to the point here. Today perhaps you could find a motivated seller who would let you test-drive an accord with a clip-on rack and one or two boats.

As regards the Prius, if you're like us (and drive a car into the ground) you would likely find with >$3 gas the cost of ownership of the Prius would be less than your alternatives. And you'd be using less oil and contributing to Cheney's health care all the less.

I can handle a Subie plug...I love them, but...I have already checked them out and have ruled them out for now because of the 25-27 mpg. If I can buy a good used Buick for short money and get 25.5 to 27 mpg why pay the premiun for the Subie?

Nothing like a Buick with Yaks on top......

Just shopping looking and learning.

[shewhorn]

If I can buy a good used Buick for short money and get 25.5 to 27 mpg why pay the premiun for the Subie?

All wheel drive for starters. Makes a HUGE difference in the rain and snow. Second reason... MUCH better handling. I'd be surprised if a Buick could pull a 1/4 of a G on the skid pad (a slight exaggeration... OK... maybe not). I'm biased though... when I turn the steering wheel I expect an immediate response. Turn in on HUGE cars like Buicks is practically non-existant. Lighter car and better brakes = shorter stopping distance and... the Subaru is an American car (with the exception of the WRX which is still made in Japan, Subarus are made in the US and are more American than many domestic models although I'm not sure where Buicks fall in that mix so it may be a moot point). So... there's a few reasons!

As for power, the 2.5 Boxer has plenty of torque. It's a nice engine.

Cheers, Joe

[shewhorn]

Just another note... of the cars I've owned...

Buick Electra 380

Ford Taurus (two of 'em)

Lexus SC300 (with a stick baby)

Subaru WRX

And my current Mazda 3... the Subaru was the most comfortable of all of them (I'm 5'9" so about average height for a bloke). I don't know how the other Subarus compare but the 2002 WRX was something special. They really paid attention to proper seating geometry (position of the legs, etc.) and the seats themselves were really nice. Even after driving it from California to New Hampshire (talking the road less traveled on the western leg of the trip) I still wasn't sick of it by the end of the ride. The Mazda seats themselves are really nice but the geometry of the WRX was so much better (then again... the WRX is a drivers car, or at least it was until they screwed with the suspension... I'm sure it's nothing that can't be fixed with a few ProDrive springs, 22mm bars and some MRT caster/camber plates on the front though ).

Cheers, Joe

[Michael_Crouse]

Have you looked at a Corolla? We have an 2006 and we love it. Great milage (35 mpg highway), plenty of room inside (if I can fit most anyone can!) and it carries two boats just fine. It loses some ommphh with the boats on the roof but then again I'm comparing it to my 4.6 liter 06 Tundra. The Corolla had enough ommpphh to get us a speeding warning when we were in the Saguenay last fall. It's also affordable and will last a very long time.

[subaruguru]

Ford Focus?

One relative and guy who inspects my car have them and seem satisfied.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/09/17/20...on-the-highway/

2001-2007 Foci are good-handling, quite reliable German-Ford chariots, but NOT particularly efficient with autobox. Expect high 20s max. The glitzier Mazda3 2.0L is better.

Note that the new 2008 Focus handles with mediocrity, and to these eyes is butt-ugly.

Ern

[subaruguru]

Just an observation on the "78" subaru. My guess is that the carburetor wasn't able to deal with the cange in air density in the mountains. EFI has solved that problem nicely.

The late 70s Subies had 70hp motors! The current ones 173hp. It's that simple.

What Paul wants is a nice 110hp 1.5L lightweight chariot with low Cd and highway solidity.

Still think only the FIT fits, and is a better (and far cheaper) choice than the rounded-roof Jetsony Civic.

[subaruguru]

I know you don't want a Subie plug but for others I would note we don't see a significant (5 mpg was mentioned) drop in mpg when hauling (up to four) boats. We get 25-27 mpg, 'nuff said. I do this in part to mention that due to your reference to roof rack stability I will also mention that it has the highest load rating in class (or did when we bought both of ours).

I understand the once-a-week argument, sadly our non-kayaking mileage also dominates our vehicle usage.

In the days of Daniel Travanti commercials I walked into a Honda dealer to look at an Accord. At that time they weren't negotiating price even with a several thousand dollar markup above sticker. I seriously considered pulling the moustache hairs out of the salesman's smug upper lip but discretion was the better part of valour and I went down the road to purchase a Mazda 626. Never did like the mom-and-dad ride of the Accords several of my friends got. I am getting to the point here. Today perhaps you could find a motivated seller who would let you test-drive an accord with a clip-on rack and one or two boats.

As regards the Prius, if you're like us (and drive a car into the ground) you would likely find with >$3 gas the cost of ownership of the Prius would be less than your alternatives. And you'd be using less oil and contributing to Cheney's health care all the less.

Hi Bob,

Methinks the Prius makes most sense with gas at $5 for very long term ownership. My biggest complaint is the truly mediocre handling. This is NO fun to drive. Straightline cruising is reasonably steady, but like most Toyotas it doesn't know what a steering wheel or suspension are truly for.

[subaruguru]

why pay the premiun for the Subie?

Just shopping looking and learning.

Let's repeat: ALL...WHEEL...DRIVE. And steering feel second only to BMW (slightly better than Audi except over 80mph). Phenomenal crashworthiness...Jap electrical reliability.

Remember, Paul, I can trade in ANY North American autos extant, and only like what meets MY criteria. Of late that's the Subie 2.5i motor. For higher efficiency non-AWD econobox use I like the Foci (used cheap). Used Mazda3 are so overpriced that a new one's a better deal. The Fit is the first Honda I've liked since the great Civics of 88-91 (before the severe dumbing-down started at Honda)...and the 90-93 glitzier Integra. Just that horrible seat....

Since hauling the yaks isn't your primary need, but fuel eco seems to be...BUT you want highway prowess, I'd go with the Mazda3 2.0L. At $5/gal maybe the Fit. At $3/gal my heart's still with Subaru...the only affordable Audi alternative.

I wish there were more choices TRULY above 30c/40h mpg, like elsewhere.

Oh...just read that Subie will offer a big (2.5L) DIESEL that'll top 45mpg. Probably take 'em years to get it here unless it's modeled closely to the current gas 2.5i...and then we'll REALLY watch for blown head gaskets! Can't win....

[subaruguru]

Have you looked at a Corolla? We have an 2006 and we love it. Great milage (35 mpg highway), plenty of room inside (if I can fit most anyone can!) and it carries two boats just fine. It loses some ommphh with the boats on the roof but then again I'm comparing it to my 4.6 liter 06 Tundra. The Corolla had enough ommpphh to get us a speeding warning when we were in the Saguenay last fall. It's also affordable and will last a very long time.

Michael, you may be onto something here. I used to trade in the great 93-97 Corollas, then watched as Toyota kinda lost it with each newer iteration. The Corolla's major attribute in my mind IS fuel efficiency. It's a nice motor! Just wish they were built and handled as well as the earlier ones. Don't get hit in one, and mind the recent tranny problems. There's quite a crop of off-lease 3yr old Corollas around, but Toyota dealers generally overpay for them at auctions in order to make profit on high-interest financing deals with lower income shoppers, so it may be hard to steal one. Be sure to get one with overdrive, as the stripper w/ 3 speed autobox is a joke on the highway.

The Mazda3 and Fit are better handlers, but it's probably easier to get a good deal on a USED Corolla (or Subaru!). If buying new, a midlevel Mazda3 is the best deal, followed by the Fit.