Finding a suitable kayak

[mskulick]

This is our 3rd year kayaking, having had lessons on the Chesapeake in Annapolis. First boats were EclipseRM (me) and ShadowRM (my wife, Michele). I currently have QCC 500X in kevlar, Michele still has the Shadow. We moved here to the N.Shore (Manchester,MA) two years ago and enjoy the ocean as often as we can. The rotomolded Eclipse was actually a lot of fun for me, and I had pretty much a bomb-proof roll, at least on the relatively calm Chesapeake and Lake George in the Adirondaks, where we go each summer. Reading Derek Hutchinson and some other authors convinced me I needed to have a composite boat, so (back when I could afford it-before we moved to the land of the astronomical mortgage,) I bought one without paddling it first.The QCC has a high rear deck and is painful to me when I roll. I'm thinking I would like less boat, and more fun. Having done much reading on-line and drooling over all the wonderful new and perhaps not-so-new kayaks available nowadays, I would like to replace mine with something well, more enjoyable. Mariner's Coaster, Express, P&H Capella, EaskyRM, VCP Avocet/Avocet RM all seem very appealing choices. Money is an issue, unfortunately, at this time.I may again find it necessary to purchase without a paddle, due to the un likelyhood of finding an affordable kayak locally. I have been scouring various sources for a suitable craft, and have spotted Avocet RM and Easky RM for less than $1000. I am hoping however, that someone reading this would be willing to offer a little guidance. I do not have any Expedition or long, unsupported trips in mind, only wanting an easy to roll, ocean-worthy daytripping boat. I am 5'10" and roughly 195-200 lbs. Initial stability would be a somewhat secondary consideration. I have a dry-top and some NRS pants I have yet to try out, but in reading the posts here, am guessing a drysuit to also be in my future. Sorry for the length. Thank you, Mike.

[Guest guest]

Mike:

The P&H Capella and VCP Avocet are popular boats in the club and for good reason: you can't go wrong with either one of them. They are almost identical in size and are both day boats that will handle you weight range just fine. Both as you know are available in poly.

I haven't seen a P&H Easky, but given the specs, the volume may be a bit small for someone your size. Most of us prefer at least a 16' boat for ocean conditions. The boat appears to be designed for a lot of initial stability, geared for newer paddlers or protected waters. Of course, for many people, that's just fine.

The Coaster is really a surf oriented boat, so unless that's your thing, it's probably not your boat.

Based on Mariner's description, the Express has fairly low initial stability, like a narrow dory, meaning it's pretty tippy until it lays over on its side where the flare kicks in for a lot of secondary stability. If stability is a consideration for you, it appears to not fit your criteria. Sounds like a really fun boat though.

My advice is to paddle them first. There are several of us who'd be glad to loan you a Capella or Avocet for a test run (I have a poly Avocet you can try). You may also find an Easky in the club. The Mariners are rare around here, but are well-designed boats. Just ask and people generally are happy to set something up. Without a drysuit, you'd want to wait until May or June.

Or go to the dealers and demo paddle them there. Big retailers sometime only let you paddle around a pond without a sprayskirt, but the more serious dealers let you do what you really need to do: get out in ocean conditions. Given the generally excellent handling of these boats, the real reason to paddle first is the importance of fit: will you be comfortable in the cockpit? Even the hottest boat is useless if it doesn't fit you. You have to spend some time in the cockpit to know.

New England Small Craft in Rowley, MA is the local P&H Dealer and does a large business in used boats. Sakonnet Boathouse in Tiverton, RI is the other New England distributor for P&H. For VCP, try Country Canoeist in Dunbarton, NH, Maine Island Kayak in Portland, ME, and The Kayak Centre in Rhode Island (3 locations); these are the New England dealers for Valley. All are reputable and have treated club members well over the years.

I'm sure other boat junkies will chime in as well and can point you to other models that fit your specs.

Scott

[Guest guest]

>I haven't seen a P&H Easky, but given the specs, the volume

>may be a bit small for someone your size. Most of us prefer

>at least a 16' boat for ocean conditions. The boat appears

>to be designed for a lot of initial stability, geared for

>newer paddlers or protected waters. Of course, for many

>people, that's just fine.

My husband has an Easky, and he is about your size. I think it would fit you fine, but you should definitely sit in it for a while before deciding it (or any boat) is comfortable for you. It doesn't have excessive initial stability so you can put it on it's edge easily. It has good secondary stability. I would take it out in any conditions, but there is something to be said for longer boats.

Dee Hall

Blue Baja

[mskulick]

Today (Sat) with it raining and blowing seems like a day more suited for a trip to NESC for some info than one in which to do yardwork! I shall put this suggestion to immediate use. Thanks. Mike.

[Guest guest]

I currently have QCC 500X in

>kevlar, ....The QCC

>has a high rear deck and is painful to me when I roll.

Well Mike, I certainly wish you luck joining the Q500 ex-owners club, of which I am the local president. >:-) I've seen your post and your price is fair. You've got a decent roll going if you can roll that thing.

You'll do fine in the Capella or the Avocet I'm sure. Scott C's kayaking advice is never to be lightly ignored. I will say that the Capella tends to weathercock significantly (without the skeg). With the skeg it tracks well enough. Never paddled the avocet.

Oh yeah, If you are into that kind of thing a Currrent designs caribou, and the susquehanna from impex are fine boats, both lack day hatches.

[mskulick]

Hi, Scott. Thanks for the response and advice. I went to NESC last weekend and sat in Capella, Caribou and Gulfstream. GS VERY comfy, Caribou seems ok, Capella hurts. Back band very hard down low, feels better when popped out of its 3 slots on the base. Alex thinks IR backband would feel better. I may be able to afford more than I originally thought, now that I have sold QCC and have decided to part with some other stuff. I have read a great deal about VCP and NDK specifically Pintail and Romany/Explorer. Are there in fact qc issues with these? The idea of a rugged well-designed ocean-worthy kayak that is easy to roll and somewhat playful appeals to me. To be safely equipped on the water, how much gear, weight-wise should I plan to carry? My intention is to be involved in the group and to be outfitted as I should. I weigh 190 or so and am 5'10" I see here and there a Pintail and Romany used available at a price I may be able to afford. Am I too big? Keeping in mind I do not plan any overnights or camping, but do wish to carry sufficient safety gear with me on the water? Maybe in May or June I could take you up on the offer to paddle the Avocet. Again, Scott, thanks.

Mike.

[mskulick]

Hi, Peter. Thanks for the wishes. I sold QCC Sat. I wonder specifically about the Caribou. Never paddled a hard-chine boat, but have heard some good things about the CD Caribou. Would you consider it suitable for the conditions around here, and does it respond well to a lean?

Thanks.

Mike.

[mskulick]

Hello, Dee.

"There is something to be said for longer boats." Sounds like good advice, so I think I will look at kayaks at least 16ft. and longer. Thank you for taking the time to help, I really appreciate it.

Mike.

[Guest guest]

As far as longer, plastic boats, the two that I see skilled kayakers paddling the most are the Capella and the Prijon Seayak. I haven't paddled either myself.

Dee Hall

Impex Currituck, Blue over Ivory

[Guest guest]

Mike -

I had a Caribou and I think pretty highly of it: well made, no leaky hatches, comfortable cockpit, nice lines, etc. It tracks great and is a pretty fast boat with the hard chines at 17'10". Carves a turn and responds well when leaned. But it really needs to be leaned to handle best. It has a low fore/aft profile, so it basically slices through waves rather than rides over them as boats with an upswept bow would. So be prepared to get wet.

I actually sold it last year and got a Romany 16. I love this boat. Slower, but more fun and handles VERY well in conditions (depending on the operator....ahem...). I don't know all about the various QC issues and history, etc., but my boat was bought new in 2002, and it doesn't leak a drop. I think it depends on what vintage you're dealing with - and the specific boat in question. The other boat you talk about - the pintail - would be my choice as a SECOND boat. It's very maneuverable and turns on a dime, which is great for play, but the sacrifice is hull speed and ability to paddle a straight line. That's my take and my taste, anyway.

BTW - day hatches are overrated, IMO. They're nice for flat water paddling when you need something, but how many folks are going to hold the paddle in one hand, reach around and play footsie with opening and closing that sucker up even in mild chop? I wouldn't let that be a deal breaker.

Good luck.

-------

Steve F.

Keep the flat side up

[mskulick]

So, Steve. Let me put the question to you, as well...Am I too big for Romany or Pintail, considering necessary gear load?

-Mike.

[mskulick]

Dee, hi again. It looks like I might be able to go the composite route after all, so long as I can find a used boat. I have yet another question, this time about drysuits. How many months out of the year will I be able to use it? I would be getting either a Ravenspring or Kokatat Gore-tex. And I am wondering about the NRS paddling pants/ Whetstone (breathable) drytop I own, but have yet to wear?

Thank you.

-Mike.

[John Leonard]

>I weigh 190 or so and am 5'10" I see here and

>there a Pintail and Romany used available at a price I may

>be able to afford. Am I too big?

I have been paddling a Pintail for a few years now and weight 210lbs. It sits a bit low in the water but paddles fine. I love the way the boat paddles and would highly recommend it if you are looking for a playful boat and don't mind doing corrective strokes. You will probably want to sit in one anyway as the stock seats are a bit narrow and I eventually cut mine out. Other than the seat I have had no problems fitting the boat and love the fit of the ocean cockpit.

The Romany is a great boat too. It is still pretty playfull but tracks a bit better and has a bit more volume. You can't go wrong with either.

John

[Guest guest]

For my money, the Caribou does not turn very well for paddlers over 180 pounds unless you use an off-side lean,(to turn left, lean left and sweep on the right, watch that balance because you have little to no paddle support). That was my only complaint about my boat, and I am sure that a more skilled 220 pound paddler could have done wonders with it. Back before the marketers took over, Current Designs had paddler weights listed for their boats. The Caribou was listed with a 180 pound paddler maximum. It tracks well and is fast for a boat with so much primary stability and decent secondary. It has relatively low windage so is great for upwind travel. If I weighed 150 to 180 I never would have sold it.

In no way is the response to a leaned turn of the Caribou in the same class as the response of the Capella, or Explorer, whether the turn is swept or carved.

My boat had custom glass bulkheads and an outside glass seam. I think that they took extra prideas they built her because of the custom work. Hatches let in only a few drops of water in rolling practice or deck-washing seas. Even a used stock kevlar boat in good shape will go for about 1900 dollars at least

[christopherG]

this man forgot to sign himself..."john leonard, submarine commander"!

=:^)

[Guest guest]

Like folks said above, I would imagine that you should have no problem fitting in either boat. I'm 6ft/172lb. so it's not an issue for me. I would PERSONALLY prefer the Explorer over the Pintail as a first boat and think about the Pintail as a second boat. It's a good bit more 'twitchy' than the Explorer, which is good for for play and maneuverability, but you'll be doing a lot of correcting strokes if you want to go straight ahead. This is MY taste, of course, and YMMV as they say, so you should definately paddle them both and decide for yourself what you're comfortable with because however you slice it, they're quite different boats - and one (or both) may not be your cup of tea.

Good luck.

Steve

-------

Steve F.

Blue over blue w/yellow

[Shane]

My wife and I were antiquing in Essex this past weekend. Right in the middle of our adventure, we saw a kayak with a "sale" sign painted on it (off of main street). Now, of course, no one can turn down a kayak sale - so off we went.

We too were thinking of adding a composite boat and we found that ERBA (www.erba.com) not only was having a sale but also were selling boats on consignment. We ended up buying a used and slightly older CD Solstice glass boat for $1100.

I believe they may have other deals as well. Also, probably mentioned here somewhere as well, North Shore Kayak in Rockport sells their leased boats at good prices in the fall - they probably have some leftovers from last year at good prices too. http://www.northshorekayak.com

Not sure if they have what you're looking for, but never hurts to ask.

Hope this helps!

[Guest guest]

Mike:

Both the Pintail and the Romany 16/Explorer are fine boats, albeit designed for different purposes. Note that Steve has a Romany 16; the Romany Explorer is the same hull section, only 17-1/2' long instead of 16' long. John and Steve summarize the differences nicely.

I wouldn't call the Explorer a day boat as it has the size and speed for serious expeditioning. The Romany 16 is more maneuverable, though noticeably slower. Several in the club use their Explorers for day trips and have fun, but it requires more of a lean to turn quickly and rides higher (it can get blown around a bit if lightly loaded). If you're going to use it for day trips, I'd go with the Romany 16, not the Explorer, as you will have more fun...unless speed is an issue.

Usually on club trips speed is not a major concern. However, if you go out on fast Level 3/4 trips or go for distance, you will get frustrated or hold up the group with the shorter boats (16' and under). To give you an idea of the diference: I can cruise at 4 knots in my Explorer but do a little more than 3 knots in the Romany 16 with similar effort.

The Pintail is no speed demon either, but is the very maneuverable. Five years ago, the Pintail was THE British playboat, but better tracking boats such as the Avocet, Romany 16, and Capella have pushed it out of the limelight. It still has it fans, though, and is a champ in the rock gardens.

As for the weight and fit questions: You are in the upper range for the Pintail; it is really designed for small to medium paddlers. The cockpit is tighter as well. As John demonstrates every time he paddles his Pintail, however, it may do fine for you if that's your style of boat. John must like his for the low windage!

You should note that the Pintail's ocean cockpit that John mentions is the smaller round kind; you need to sit on the back deck and slide your legs in horizontally. Ocean cockpits have many advantages, but truthfully are less common these days as many people prefer keyhole cockpits for the ease of putting the feet in and out while sitting on the seat. Valley came out with a keyhole version for the Pintail about four years ago; they will be less common on the used boat market.

The Romany cockpits are on the large side, both the seat and the opening (32" long vs. Valley's standard 29"). Easy in and easy out. Either Romany will have more than enough floation for you. But as you found out with the Capella, fit is individual, so paddle it for a couple of hours to see.

As for the quality issues, NDK still has problems in my experience. Because the hull design is superior, we have learned to either fix or live with the problems, so I wouldn't let that stop you if it's the boat you want. Many NDK boats have no problems at all. The best strategy is the one you are following: get a used boat so you know if any problems have cropped up.

You also asked about the weight of gear for day trips. There is a considerable range as different paddlers take more or less depending on their approach to risk management. Some go out with 10 or 15 lbs; others such as trip leaders who take safety gear for group emergencies can have 50-75 lbs. extra.

You're welcome to try my boats if we can set up a time. But don't wait too long or the good used boats will be gone.

As for drysuits, we tell trip leaders as an informal guideline that wetsuits are required below 60 degrees and drysuits below 50 degrees. In our waters, that means drysuits are mandatory from late October to early May. I wear mine from mid-September to mid-May. They are more useful if you plan to be in the water as you would if taking classes. Most in the club do fine without a drysuit, but don't start paddling until late in May and end sometime in September. If you plan to paddle in Maine, the water is 5-6 degrees colder on average, so you'd use a wetsuit a month longer in the spring and a month sooner in the fall.

See the NDOC chart for water temps: http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/natl.html

Scott

[Guest guest]

Steve:

You're right that access to the day hatch gets dicey when the waters get interesting. However, it is a simple matter to raft up with a fellow paddler and rummage around in the day hatch in complete safety. Can't do that without a day hatch.

In an assisted rescue situation, you are almost always rafted up so access to water, food, clothing, lines, first aid, flares, etc. is possible. If you are the rescuer, you would not want to ask the person being assisted to go digging in your forward or rear hatch for supplies. They may be incapacitated, they don't know what they are looking for and you may need to hold onto to them.

In the real world, the water is calm enough to reach into a day hatch solo. And there are many opportunities to duck behind a point or an island and dig out what you need. I'd rather be able to do so when the conditions allow than to never do it at all.

That much said, my first boat had no day hatch and I paddled happily for several years. 'Course now that I've had boats with a day hatch, I'd think long and hard about going back.

Scott

[Guest guest]

It's too bad I may have purchased the only used Currituck in New England. It is a fantastic all-around boat. Since Impex has been making them for only a year, there aren't many used ones out there yet. Some other popular well-liked, all-around boats that you might be able to find used include the Capella (available in composite), Orion (also from P&H), and Diamante (Impex and Mega). I haven't paddled any of these on the water, but the people I know who do love them.

As far as dry suits, obviously it varies on the individual and the year. I run cold, but hate to end up drenched in sweat. As long as the air temperature is below 60 degrees and the water temperature is below 50 degrees, I will be wearing my drytop and bib. I have swum in the drytop and bib without getting wet, but getting a good seal is not all that easy. It requires patience. I am considering adding a few small pieces of velcro to the bib and the drytop to help.

Next year I will invest in a whole suit. I have looked at the Kokatats and Ravensprings in detail and they both appear to be well made, but the Ravenspring suits are two-layer breathable while the Kokatat is 3 layer. The 3 layer is more durable, but if you are careful about what you wear underneath it might not matter. I hear the that the Ravenspring material breaths better than the Goretex.

>Dee, hi again. It looks like I might be able to go the

>composite route after all, so long as I can find a used

>boat. I have yet another question, this time about drysuits.

>How many months out of the year will I be able to use it? I

>would be getting either a Ravenspring or Kokatat Gore-tex.

>And I am wondering about the NRS paddling pants/ Whetstone

>(breathable) drytop I own, but have yet to wear?

>Thank you.

>-Mike.

Dee Hall

Impex Currituck, Blue over Ivory