Guest guest Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Hello, I'm looking for a new touring paddle, and the one I'm currently using is 220cm. I'm wondering what people's thoughts and preferences are on using different paddle lengths. What advantages/disadvantages would one get from a longer/shorter paddle? Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.AlanNecky Looksha IV - orangeDagger Id 6.9 - blue/black"You are never alone in this Universe. The force that guides the stars, guides you as well." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Generally speaking, unless you are incredibly tall or are paddling a wide recreational boat, I would not recommend going longer than 220cm for sea kayaking. A longer paddle generally makes for a more inefficient forward stroke. I've seen many paddling students with longer paddles have a hard time polishing strokes and not understand why. When I've handed them a 220 to try they realize the difference.Jill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Oh geez - this is a good one.Depends on your height and preference. You want a paddle that is short enough to perform a good forward stroke.I am 5'7(and a half and started with a 230. WAY TOO long, but thats what the outfitter recommended and I didn't know any better. Since, I have gone to a 220. Much better, but in reality something shorter would probably be better.I just cashed in my REI discount and dividend and got the Epic light touring paddle with a length adjustment from 215-225. I think for someone of my grand height, something around 215 will be perfect._Shane"Would a knife help protect you against a ‘curious’ shark? I don’t know but I would like the option." - Trevor Gardner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 I like a 215. I have the torso and arm length of a person of 6'2". The 215 gives you a faster stroke rate, a lower gear and mor ability to finesse because the paddle has less leverage over you. I have an adjustable 215 to 225. 95 percent of the time it stays at 215. Sometimes I am really tired and want to do a really really lazy low angle stroke at 220. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Crouse Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 You didn't say how tall you are. I'm 6'7" and I use a 220cm paddle, so I think that a 220cm is too long for almost everyone out there.If you're on a trip or at a skills session just ask to try someone else's paddle. That's how I wound up getting a shorter paddle.When I started I was using a 240cm... ouch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 You know what is amazing? The amount of information out there encouraging people to get longer paddles, while people that avidly paddle seem to believe that (roughly) as short a paddle as possible while being able to get the job done is better. I don't get it. Check this out these articles encouraging longer paddles: http://www.mountainmanoutdoors.com/article...yakpaddles.html http://www.jerseypaddler.com/shop/kaypadsize.asp http://waquoitkayak.com/selectingkayak.html from the google search: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-...ength+selecting The only thing that jives with what we're all saying that I saw while looking is this from Paddling.net: http://www.paddling.net/guidelines/showArticle.html?68 Maybe I'm bitter because I am the proud owner of a 100 dollar 230cm shower curtain rod. It seems to me that there is a tremendous amount of misinformation out there and I'm curious why (some of) the outfitters, especially the big ones, choose to push the bigger paddles? _Shane "Would a knife help protect you against a ‘curious’ shark? I don’t know but I would like the option." - Trevor Gardner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kattenbo Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 And every one assumes that you're asking about Euro paddles....A nice thing about twigs (Greenland sticks), is that they are adjustable, at least in the shorter direction. And by applying a sliding stroke you can effectively use a paddle in the 5 1/2 foot level.Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Crouse Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 I think that paddles have gotten shorter over the past few years, or rather that people are switching to shorter paddles. When I started paddling I had a very low angle stroke, now I've developed a higher angle stroke, thus the shorter paddle.I wouldn't be surprised if people are using 205cm paddles in a few years!It could be worse, you could own a 240cm carbon paddle instead of a 230cm $100 paddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 >It could be worse, you could own a 240cm carbon paddle >instead of a 230cm $100 paddle. *lol*_Shane"Would a knife help protect you against a ‘curious’ shark? I don’t know but I would like the option." - Trevor Gardner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvcrider Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 I have the same adjustable paddle as Peter, only mine runs 210 - 220 cm. I normally paddle with it set at 210, but I am a bit shorter at 5' 8" and my boat has a 20" beam. I too started paddling with a longer paddle and a low angle stroke, but then I evolved downward in length (230 --> 220 ---> 210) and upward in angle. Joe Galloway"The older I get, the better I was." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 I too, had an outfitter recommend a 230cm when I first started, and all it did was teach me bad habits from the start. I'm only 5-7 and 230cm might as well be 250cm for me. It didn't take me long to see other, more efficient paddlers using shorter paddles. I started asking others if I could try their paddle and found that a 210-215 is best for me (although I still own 220s). Some of the higher end models now have adjusting ferrules that shorten the shaft slightly for a more custom fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 I think Mike's point about a higher angle stroke is a good one, but even with a lower angle touring stroke, a long paddle forces you to take a longer stroke and not stop the power phase at the hip. In order to finish the power phase at the hip and enter the recovery phase, someone with a long paddle has to lift it in a way that is awkward and inefficient. Also, the three sites you mentioned are from retailers who don't seem to offer instruction. This is just a theory but I think that manufacturers send an assortment of lengths to retailers and the retailers need to sell them so they tend to tell customers that a particular paddle fits them because that is what they have in stock (in saying this, I'm referring to the generic outdoor stores, not to folks like NESC, CRCK, Country Canoeist, etc., who cater to the harder core paddling market). What baffles me is how many paddles I see in stores like REI, etc. that are 230 and 240cm. I've seen sales people at generic outdoor stores advise customers to size a kayak paddle like they used to size skis (before short became the norm); raise one arm over your head and your hand should hit the top of the blade. Why that makes no sense is that the portion of your height which is in your legs means nothing when you are sitting down. If anything torso length is a better indicator. Canoe paddles are always sized from a kneeling or sitting position and even then it is somewhat boat dependent.By the way, I'm 5'4" and I use a 220cm very comfortably with a mid angle touring stroke and so does Karen Knight who is just under 5' (Karen and I have almost the same torso length).Jill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccumial Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 And twigs are cheap enough that you can make a bunch of them to figure out the "ideal" length:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccarlson Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I recall that, some time ago, Ken Fink wrote an article on paddle length for either "Sea Kayaker" or ACK. His bottom line, based upon actual paddle trials with dozens of paddlers of various sizes, was that a 220 cm paddle feels "right" and produces the best performance for 90% of paddlers, almost regardless of their height. So, there's one person's opinion. If I can find the article, I'll post the link or a scan. OK, I'm still paddling with a 230 but may have to see the light this season! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstephens Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Ok, my theory on the long paddles being sold is that the people buying them are often starting out in beamy rec boats. This is probably why outfits like REI are stocked with 230s-240s. When switching from a 27" to a 22" wide boat, I kept the same paddle. When I upgraded my paddle I tried a shorter one but felt more comfortable with the length I was used to, so bought another 230. (I'm 6-1) I also like a low angle (lazy?) touring stroke, so a 230 works for me. And then, hey, those extra 10cms can't hurt on an extended paddle roll, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I have made several GPs this winter, different lengths, different widths,etc to try out this spring. It doesn't take long, about 8 hours each.I also bought a 230cm carbon fiber paddle in the fall. I was following the advice that I found on several websites as to the recommended length. I found, however, that it was too long, so I cut it down to 215cm. I took off 15 cm on the female side and redrilled the shaft for the ferrule. The ferrule sits a little off center but it doesn't interfere with hand placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I have a euro custom made to 205 cm. I don't touch my 220 paddles anymore. Even my wife and kids tend to use the white water paddles rather than the 220s when they go out in the touring boats.WW paddles -- my first is a 194. Don't use that one anymore. I normally use a 191. But having used a proto 180 cm Big Spoon several times in surf, I really like a paddle shorter than 191. Just ordered a 185 Werner from Alex. I don't know how long Werner has been producing 185s but you don't seem many around in stores or in the 'net. I am glad I was able to custom order a 2 piece 30 degree angle one. If and when Big Spoons ever decide to put the 180 proto into production, I suspect I will have a couple more for my kids for ww.As for touring paddles, I converting my wife to GP this summer. These are shorter paddles as well.A family that conspires together stays together.sing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Carl,When you look for your next spare 230 paddle - look me up._Shane"Would a knife help protect you against a ‘curious’ shark? I don’t know but I would like the option." - Trevor Gardner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Shane,Why not cut them down? I sent my 230 back to Werner for trimming - asked them to make it a 210. They called me and talked me out of it and I now have a 218. My spare is a 210 and I really like the length better. I will most likely sell the 218 and buy another 210 this summer.Suzanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 That's a pretty good idea - I could probably cut it down. I'm fine on my sea kayak (I have a good paddle in the 220 length and an adjustable en route). But for our pool/surfing boat, I could possibly cut down either the 230 AMT Expedition or the 230 SeaClude (sp?).Never really thought about it - thanks!_Shane"Would a knife help protect you against a ‘curious’ shark? I don’t know but I would like the option." - Trevor Gardner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 You can take 10 cm (4") off a paddle with no noticeable adverse effects. The joint will be off-center, but it doesn't affect the performance of the paddle. Here's how to do it:- Wrap the female side of the shaft with masking tape where you plan cut it and where the new holes will be.- Extend lines from the edges of the original hole(s) to the area where the new hole(s) will be. This is easiest if you use a V-shaped straight edge. This step is critical in order to maintain the same feather angle(s) as the old paddle. BTW, If your paddle has multiple adjustment holes and you only use one, you have the option of only drilling the one hole you need, which makes the paddle shaft stronger.- Carefully measure the distance from the inside edge of the old hole(s) to the end of the shaft and write it down. Repeat for the outside edge.- Using a drafting compass, mark the cut line on the shaft.- Cut the shaft with a fine-tooth hacksaw, band saw, abrasive cut off wheel or what have you (I've even done them VERY slowly on a table saw with a carbide blade). Make sure the end is square. When cutting with a hand saw, you can put a hose clamp around the shaft as a cutting guide. You can judge if the end is square by slipping the paddle back together and checking the joint. Adjust the fit with sandpaper or a file.- Lightly round the cut edge with sandpaper, a file or a whetstone.- Using a drafting compass again, mark the inner and outer distances you measured for the hole(s) on the shaft. This should create a drawn square where the four lines for each hole meet.- Draw diagonal lines in the square(s) in order to find the center points of the hole(s).- Drill the hole(s) slightly undersize, in the center of the square(s). This will allow you to adjust them if they're slightly off-center.- Slip the paddle together, then fine-tune the size and position of the hole(s) with drill bits, files, sandpaper, etc. until you have a perfect fit.- If you inadvertently make a hole slightly oversize, don't panic. You can build it up with thin layers of epoxy until it's a snug fit again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Excellent! Although there's no definitive answer, as I expected, I'd like to throw another log into the paddle discussion fire...What about straight vs. bent shafts? I feel like it'd be easier to index a bent shaft paddle, especially when underwater, but have never tried it. Thought i know i've had a little trouble with a straight shaft before. Any preferences there?AlanNecky Looksha IV - orangeDagger Id 6.9 - blue/black"You are never alone in this Universe. The force that guides the stars, guides you as well." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guido Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Shane,It is interesting that the current thought among some racers on the west coast is that tall folks with long arms can actually use shorter paddles than shorter folk. The theory, as explained, is that long arms let you reach closer to the water so you don't need the long length.A related factor is the hight of your seat. The closer to the water you sit the shorter the paddle. For the record I am 6'2" with long arms and my adjustable Epic Mid Wing paddle is currently set to 214 for my ICF or Mako ski and 215-216 for my Epic Endurance 18.Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I agree with the responses here that claim people are being sold paddles that are too long for them. But I'm surprised that one comment hasn't come up. Paddles are sized by overall length but the true sizing element is the shaft. example: a 220cm Werner Kauai (short and wide blade)will have the same shaft length as a 230 Werner Camano (long narrow blade). I've worked retail in both the big outfitter store and also in the small seasonal on water shop and continually was explaining to customers that even though everything on the wall was judged and sorted by overall length they really needed to look at the shaft. Buying a paddle by overall legnth alone is like buying shoes based on the length of the sole (compare the footprint of your winter Sorels to your running shoes). Then you get into blade style to paddling style. Another time. Be aware that with a short sub210cm paddle and a long stiff tracking boat your sweep stokes will be a lot less effective. After paddling my touring boat with my WW paddle (200cm)a few times I went back to my touring paddle (230)because it was easier to cruise and make subtle corrective stokes with.btw I paddle with a 215cm Kauai, I'm 6' and paddle a 21" boat. I only use my 230 for a spare or in a tandem and then its a little short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guido Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 The crank style shafts do index well for rolling. But I don't think they are a substitute for learning good technique if improved body mechanics is your goal.Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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