Anyone have a 2006+ Honda Civic?

[shewhorn]

Hey folks... damn, I haven't seen many of you in months. Unfortunately I've only been on the water once in the past 2 months as wedding season is at its peak (I had a double header last week). That brings me to the subject of this post. I need a really reliable wedding mobile and my WRX... well it seems to be a pseudo lemon (I have several friends with the same vintage as I have and they've not had the problems I'm having) and I'm losing confidence in it. If I had any other job I'd just keep it and drive the thing to 250k but, I absolutely must mitigate any risk of having the car fail on the way to a job and this car is high risk at the moment.

I still haven't decided if I'm going to pull the trigger yet BUT... aside from getting good gas mileage, being reliable and not being a total bore to drive I've narrowed my choices down to the Honda Civic and the Mazda 3 (2.3 liter normally aspirated... not the Mazda Speed). I'm leaning towards the Mazda, not quite as good on fuel economy but perhaps a little more practical for carrying yaks.

So the question... the Mazda 3 wagon can support up to a whopping 40" spread on the load bars... that's more than I've been able to find on any other car. The Honda by comparison supports a 32" spread. I'm wondering if anyone out there has a 2006+ Civic and if so, how's it doing with car topping two kayaks? My current vehicle (WRX) is TERRIBLE. The body panels are made out of tin foil and despite the fact that the rack is rated to support 125 pounds and my boats weigh about 110, I still have some very nice dents in the area of the rear quarter panel that extends up the car between the windows and the roof panel. I don't want to have this problem again. Despite the fact that I always use bow AND stern tie downs... I think that part of this failure can be attributed to the fact that the maximum load bar spread on the WRX is 25" so whenever I go over a bump the boats pitch forward and backward. I'm wondering if that extra 7" of spread on the Civic would be enough to mitigate that (as the fuel economy still makes it an attractive vehicle for me).

Cheers, Joe

[alcoons]

So the question... the Mazda 3 wagon can support up to a whopping 40" spread on the load bars... that's more than I've been able to find on any other car. The Honda by comparison supports a 32" spread. I'm wondering if anyone out there has a 2006+ Civic and if so, how's it doing with car topping two kayaks? My current vehicle (WRX) is TERRIBLE. The body panels are made out of tin foil and despite the fact that the rack is rated to support 125 pounds and my boats weigh about 110, I still have some very nice dents in the area of the rear quarter panel that extends up the car between the windows and the roof panel. I don't want to have this problem again. Despite the fact that I always use bow AND stern tie downs... I think that part of this failure can be attributed to the fact that the maximum load bar spread on the WRX is 25" so whenever I go over a bump the boats pitch forward and backward. I'm wondering if that extra 7" of spread on the Civic would be enough to mitigate that (as the fuel economy still makes it an attractive vehicle for me).

Cheers, Joe

Joe. I am running at a 33" spead on a Thule rack on a Honda Accord. It is absolutely solid with about the same weight as yours: Cetus (17.5' Fiberglass) and a Nighthawk (16' Carbonlite). So it is not on a Civic, but that spread is fine in my situation.

Al

[subaruguru]

Hi Joe!

I wondered what you were up to?

If you truly don't need AWD, and are chasing an econobox for just that, then I like the Mazda3 a lot more than the Civic. (The 06 Mazda3 is improved over the 04-05 era, so stick with the 06). However, BOTH are selling considerably overpriced used right now, which, although normal for the Civic, is due to the fact that the M3 is such a great car.

Given your history in motorcross I can't help but feel that you'd be pretty disappointed with the Corolla-like softness of the Civic. The M3 is a far better planted suspension.

As well, the 2.0L 4 IS considerably more efficient than the stroked 2.3L version...and peppy enough. Both are highly refined Mazda/German-Ford plants. (Note that Mazda increased airflow and valve geo and ended up with a full 170hp from the 2.0 in my 06 Miata...and it gets a solid 28-30mpg all around...33-34 hwy...far above the EPA numbers...weird.)

As such, the M3 2.0 is basically a highly refined Ford Focus, with a far more ergo interior and quick suspension. It's set up with decent alloys and stout tires, too.

You'll miss the Impreza's sense of solidity and neutrality when throttle-steering/etc., but you already know the limitations of lightweight front wheel drive econoboxes.

If an option is to continue to run the WRX let me know. Maybe I can steer you towards less-expensive repair options. You know that I'm NOT a fan of most turbos, but normally the 2.0T has been quite durable.

For multiple kayak-hauling you already know that the 00-04 Legacy/OB Wags are pretty much without peer...safe, quiet, voluminous, stable, blah-blah-blah, but only get 20-26mpg. (I sell 'em, remember.)

But if the primary motivation is very highest eco in an at least a very good handling car I suggest the Euro-like Honda FIT instead of the softer, bloated, thirstier Civic. The FIT is very much in the 5dr small-engine efficient Euro mold of a 21st century vehicle. There are others from Renault, Ford, Nissan, Citroen, VW and Peaugeot, but of course they're not exported here....

Overall I'd put them in this order: Mazda3 (especially NEW, as they're a better deal new, with invoices in the 13k range!), Honda FIT, and then the Civic. Much cheaper would be an older Focus. These have been surprisingly reliable, and there are tons of them around pretty cheap (they come off Ford lease often, so I see them every week.) My daughter's got 150k on her 2001 2.0L Focus, and it's done extremely well until I slid it off my jack and crushed her radiator...starting all kinds of crap with the AC too. But that's what Dads are for....) Think of the Focus as a stripped Mazda3....

If you can manage to get to the Mystic Lake next Tuesday I'll probably be hosting a BBQ afterwards. Hope to see you soon.

Ern

[shewhorn]

Yeah, the Mazda 3 is built upon the Ford C1 global chassis and was actually designed by Volvo for the S40. I haven't driven one yet but on the same track/same driver it's been beating out the WRX (although if you're going to modify the suspension the WRX as a platform has a slight edge as the WRXs flaws are easily corrected with very minor modifications... most notably caster/camber plates and stiff roll bars to dial out the understeer).

Haven't really considered the Fit but.. in terms of fit and finish I'm not really impressed and 109 hp is a bit too anemic for me. On the Mazda 3 I'd be looking at the Grand Touring with a moon roof (I had a moon roof in my Lexus SC300... I miss having a moonroof). Unfortunately it doesn't look like the 2.0 na engine is available in a wagon trim on the 3 BUT, like the Civic the sedan version of the Mazda 3 supports a 32" spread on the load bars (with the extension kit) and as an added bonus it also supports 40 pounds more than the wagon so maybe that's worth considering too. Sedans also usually have less road noise than wagon (which would mean less need for plastering it with DynaMat).

The Miata... I drove a 2006 (with a stick) on an AutoX course at one of the Mazda test drive events. It's a TOTAL blast... in terms of fun and performance I don't think anything beats it for under $25k (even over $25k in terms of fun factor it's really tough competition).

Curiosity question... any idea why Subaru isn't offering the Legacy in a wagon trim anymore? They had a sedan decked out in leather and it looked pretty sharp.

Cheers, Joe

[shewhorn]

Joe. I am running at a 33" spead on a Thule rack on a Honda Accord. It is absolutely solid with about the same weight as yours: Cetus (17.5' Fiberglass) and a Nighthawk (16' Carbonlite). So it is not on a Civic, but that spread is fine in my situation.

Al

Thanks Al... good to know re: the spread. That opens up the Mazda 3 sedan to me as well.

Cheers, Joe

[subaruguru]

Curiosity question... any idea why Subaru isn't offering the Legacy in a wagon trim anymore? They had a sedan decked out in leather and it looked pretty sharp.

Cheers, Joe

You've hit upon one of my TWO giant disappointments for Subaru in 2008!

Yes, Subie's decided to emulate Toyota/Honda again by assuming that all wagon drivers want to simulate SUV aesthetics by only offering the wagon in Outback elevated stance. So gone are the fine 2.5i Leg Wags, including my wife's, the 2.5i Limited (huge twin moonroofs and leather, 17" alloys...essentially the GT WITHOUT thirsty turbo). Subaru decided to no longer chase the VW/Audi Avant/Passat, or even Mazda6 Wagon market. MANY dealers are disappointed, as the 2.5i LTD in 05-07 is a superb vehicle....

The all-new '08 Impreza is awkwardly designed, and, more importantly, has a softened suspension. Think Corolla/Civic AWD. Ok for crossing masses, they assume, but totally lacking in the chassis dynamics you're used to in your older Imp. Sigh....

I'm enjoying the 06 Miata so much that my S4 is for sale...maybe. When winter hits I'll probably think that's a ridiculous strategy, but after just narrowly beating out a speeding ticket today (the cop WAS present, but because he forgot to bring my file, he forgot to answer "present" when the role was called, so it was dismissed. Oy! Sometimes ya win one....) The new Miata is so much fun at speeds where the Audi S4 hasn't even woken up yet. You know what I mean. But the last thing I need is to see you showing up in my old S4 at a put-in next year and complaining that the windows don't go up or you're being quoted $1200 for a waterpump job, eh?

Frankly, the best combo of kayak-hauling and sheer handling fun AND a moonroof would be

a 2001-2004 Legacy GT Wagon (you'd be surprised at the handling...especially with V-rated tires), or the chgeaper 2003 SE or 2004 35th Anniv clones (they just lack monochromatic paint, but sell for less as they lack the GT moniker. These lower-riding Leg Wags aren't too numerous...I'd say I get only about 4-7/yr...about 1/10 the number of the more popular taller Outback version. And maybe only 1-2 of those would be sticks.

Frankly the only auto better than an 01-04 Leg GT/35th would be the 05-07 2.5i LTD (again, discontinued in 08!).

Be careful chasing the 2.3L Ford plant as it's only a couple mpg better than the Subaru...I'd rather keep the AWD. But again, the 2.0 Mazda3 5dr or Focus Wagon are high mpg great choices. And despite the 1.5L motor, the FIT is a highly attractive choice. I've driven many

1.4-1.6L ecoboxes in the UK, France and Italy that have all been superb handlers, competent at speed, yet manage 36-45mpg all around!

At $4-5/gallon for fuel I'd get the FIT in a heartbeat. At $3/gallon I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Ford manages to squeeze the Fusion's AWD into the Mazda 3 5 dr 2.3L next year. We could then call THAT the "next Impreza"!

Gotta sleep. G'night.

PS You sure Volvo designed the floorpan first? I thought it was Euro-Focus then M3 (2004) THEN Volvo? After all, Volvo's just a truckmaker....

[shewhorn]

The all-new '08 Impreza is awkwardly designed, and, more importantly, has a softened suspension. Think Corolla/Civic AWD. Ok for crossing masses, they assume, but totally lacking in the chassis dynamics you're used to in your older Imp. Sigh....

A very curious choice indeed considering that the WRX used to come with a free one year membership to the SCCA. It was Subaru that really started the whole sub $25k 200+ hp revolution. The popularity of the WRX caught them quite by surprise. They were only intending to manufacture 10,000 of them the first model year but I remember that when they first came out you had to get on a waiting list. Even a few months after release I had to wait a month to get mine.

And despite the 1.5L motor, the FIT is a highly attractive choice. I've driven many

1.4-1.6L ecoboxes in the UK, France and Italy that have all been superb handlers, competent at speed, yet manage 36-45mpg all around!

At $4-5/gallon for fuel I'd get the FIT in a heartbeat. At $3/gallon I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Ford manages to squeeze the Fusion's AWD into the Mazda 3 5 dr 2.3L next year. We could then call THAT the "next Impreza"!

There's actually a 4WD version of the Fit in the Euro and Japanese markets. Sometimes it boggles the mind as to why they don't release certain cars in the states.

PS You sure Volvo designed the floorpan first? I thought it was Euro-Focus then M3 (2004) THEN Volvo? After all, Volvo's just a truckmaker....

Not positive but that is what I read in a Car and Driver article. They sited the Mazda 3 as being a class above having benefited from the spoils of a chassis that was designed for a more "luxury" car (I use the term loosely).

Cheers, Joe

[subaruguru]

So what's wrong with your WRX?

E

[shewhorn]

So what's wrong with your WRX?

E

Well... it's developed some dents from the roof rack and they keep getting worse. Eventually I won't be able to carry boats with it anymore. Quotes to fix it are $655 and $550 but they advised me not to fix it if I'd continue to be car topping as they think it will probably just come back.

Aside from that I think that anything major that's going to happen has happened. I just had the AC repaired, and a coolant leak fixed (and the radiator hose replaced as a preventative measure as it exhibited a bulge during a pressure check), timing belt was replaced at 90k as a preventative measure (it's normally a 120k service item but 90k seems to be recommended by those in the know), replaced the tensioner arm, as well as some seals replaced (something unique to Scooby engines... can't remember, it's a seal in an access port, not a head gasket or anything). I replaced the rotors and brakes myself, etc. and I've had Mobile 1 synth in it since the first oil change so mechanically it's probably in pretty good shape BUT, it does have 98,000 miles on it and my worst nightmare is being late for a wedding. Any car can fail but I'd like to mitigate the risk by having something shiny and new and while I'm at it... it seems that a more kayak friendly car would be in order (the WRX is not kayak friendly... at least not in my book).

One of the Auto Body shops that I spoke with mentioned that you can get roof rails for it. I know this is standard equipment on the wagon but I've never seen such a beast offered for the sedan. You know anything about this? I've NEVER seen a sedan with roof rails before. He said they're expensive though to the tune of $282 PER RAIL!!!! :blink:

Cheers, Joe

[subaruguru]

Well... it's developed some dents from the roof rack and they keep getting worse. Eventually I won't be able to carry boats with it anymore. Quotes to fix it are $655 and $550 but they advised me not to fix it if I'd continue to be car topping as they think it will probably just come back.

Aside from that I think that anything major that's going to happen has happened. I just had the AC repaired, and a coolant leak fixed (and the radiator hose replaced as a preventative measure as it exhibited a bulge during a pressure check), timing belt was replaced at 90k as a preventative measure (it's normally a 120k service item but 90k seems to be recommended by those in the know), replaced the tensioner arm, as well as some seals replaced (something unique to Scooby engines... can't remember, it's a seal in an access port, not a head gasket or anything). I replaced the rotors and brakes myself, etc. and I've had Mobile 1 synth in it since the first oil change so mechanically it's probably in pretty good shape BUT, it does have 98,000 miles on it and my worst nightmare is being late for a wedding. Any car can fail but I'd like to mitigate the risk by having something shiny and new and while I'm at it... it seems that a more kayak friendly car would be in order (the WRX is not kayak friendly... at least not in my book).

One of the Auto Body shops that I spoke with mentioned that you can get roof rails for it. I know this is standard equipment on the wagon but I've never seen such a beast offered for the sedan. You know anything about this? I've NEVER seen a sedan with roof rails before. He said they're expensive though to the tune of $282 PER RAIL!!!! :blink:

Cheers, Joe

Joe,

Subie sells their roof rail kits seperately, as they at least used to be OE Yakima. Were about $200 total, requiring about an hour for installation. It's unclear whether the Imp Wag kit will fit on the sedan, as the roof's probably shorter.

I certainly would NOT worry about the T-belt nor seals on any Subie motor, as even the mid-90s 2.2 and all 2000+ 2.5L belts are good for at least 200k or 10years.

Now that you've done brake rotors, and probably plugged and filtered it I'd simply continue to run it until you find the perfect replacement. Simple stuff like exhaust heat shield rattles and maybe false-positive CELs for cat conv insuff (PO440) shouldn't scare you as they crop up. I'd just advertise it with a highish price on craigslist/etc. and move on once sold to a more kayak-friendly beast. But do NOT be afraid of it...unless you've so totally thrashed the suspension from motorcross or overreved the valve train or overheated the heads.

Bought a decent late 01 5sp stick Leg L wag (like DJ's) today that'll end up around low $8ks.

Now THAT will make an ideal hauler for the taller kayaker. Lotta Subie for short dough.

Coming Tuesday for post-Mystric Lake BBQ?

[subaruguru]

Joe,

Would probably be a good idea to search eBay for the Actron 9135 (or 9145/9175) OBDII scanners, which sell for around $70-80 delivered. That way when one of the CEL events occurs enroute to a wedding you can readily decode and see that 90+% of the time they're NOT of concern (P0420: cat conv insuff; or cyllinder misfire...usually drop of water on wire or mild corrosion on coil-end connector...sometimes an arcing wire). The only other common culprit is the knock sensor ($70) failure, of which I've bought a few spares if you ever need one. Installation less than 1/2 hr. Even most 02 sensor codes are subsidiaries of the former, and not indicative of repair once the ECU is reset. Rarely we're starting to see "air/fuel" sensors (02) fail...still under $200, with usually no driving anomolies.

BLINKING CELs would indicate an actual loss of vacuum (hose break) or actual other part failure that might stop you when driving through a flood, but those are incredibly rare.

Married off Joelle at The Flying Bridge in Falmouth in late July. She had a FOUR page roster of photo opps for the guy to arrange and shoot. 600+ snaps. I knew my daughter was a planner, but even this guy was surprised, so maybe it's better that you didn't get the job, eh? Came down from Springfield in a beater, too.

[shewhorn]

Re: CEL lights and what not... the car has never actually thrown a CEL light... but I don't really worry about those things. I worry about something catastrophic happening on the way there that could make me late. As it stands I often double the amount of time it takes me to get there just in case (had on Newcastle Island today at 11 AM... only takes me an hour to get there but I left at 9 AM)... usually it's a traffic buffer BUT... if the car decided to dump all of its coolant on the road I think I'd be hard pressed to get a tow truck and a cab to make the venue on time, even with such a large buffer. I have a "Force Majeure" clause in the contract which would protect me financially but... I'd feel terrible (even if it's something beyond my control), it wouldn't help *ME* that much from an emotional standpoint.

Condition wise... it's always been well taken care but it's never really been a reliable ride, not in terms of getting me from A to B as it's always done that but for a Subaru (which are traditionally very reliable cars mechanically speaking) this thing has required WAY too many repairs. I have two friends in California with the same vintage WRX as I have. We all bought them around the same time, and we all autocross about the same amount. Their cars haven't had half of the issues my car has had. I feel like I got a pseudo lemmon. It happens I guess.

Don't know if I'll make it on Tuesday. I think I'm going to try but... September is December for me.... busy busy busy... I've only been in the boat once in the last 2 months. Things calm down a bit after the 22nd so I should be getting back to the water more come the end of the month. Hopefully I'll still remember how to paddle. Shot at Wentworth by the Sea and the Wentworth Country Club today.... being that close to the ocean had me jonsin' for a fix!!!

A belated congrats to you and your daughter! Yeah... 4 pages is a bit on the long side for me but then I seem to have found an interesting niche with clients who don't like having their photos taken (they just wanna party). Fine by me. I rattled off about 2150 frames today (a hair over 21 gigs of data). I remember paying $300 for a 1 gig CF card. I find those things in my belly button lint now. Thank goodness flash memory is cheap!

Cheers, Joe