Gillian Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Went to my first lake practice last night and it was a BLAST. Thanks to David for organizing!!!! It's definitely a great forum for practicing skills . . . Peter took some time showing me a high brace which I started practicing . . . the goal will be to try to get the elbow in the water (or is it shoulder for 3* assessment??) and make it up without flipping next time I got to try my first hand of god rescue on Peter which in practice is actually a lot of fun . . . the first time I blew it . . . I tried to just use one arm to grab the coaming. Peter of course can hold his breath for an inordinate amount of time so it took awhile before he realized that I wasn't getting him up . . . I banged on the bottom of his boat as I had lost my paddle and was floating away . . . it made me realize we should probably have had a signal agreed upon to come on out of the boat, before I tried it. The second time I leaned all the way over and used my body and boat to help me swing him upwards and it was a little awkward but I got him up. Now when Jason practiced his hand of god on me it was like a roller coaster ride - that guy is strong!!! Thanks Jason!!! I thought it would be an imposition to ask him to do it again and again and again . . . I unfortuantely still have half a roll but got the sweep right last night, just lifted the head . . . did a couple cowboy re-entries and Kevin even got Julia out of her boat!!!!! Kevin did about a hundred rolls until he actually made himself dizzy I hear - we're still wondering if that's perhaps from the motion or water in the ear or a combination of both? Great times all around last night. The word of caution is something that happened during a standard re-entry I was doing during a T Rescue . . . I happened to have Kevin's tow belt on and he keeps the caribiner cliped on the outside of the bag as had been recommended to us in the past . . . Kevin was performing the T Rescue, and as I rolled into the boat, I had rotated the tow bag around to my back as it's bulky getting back in the boat with it kept in the front. As I was turning around in the boat to face forward, the caribiner caught and clipped onto the strap of the back of my seat. I didn't realize it at the time, but I went to sit up, realized I was attached very firmly to my boat, and I wasn't sure by what. Had I happened to flip over it would not have been good (in hindsight releasing the tow belt would have done the trick had I flipped, but I realized later that thought might not have occured to me because I wasn't sure what was attaching me to the boat). . . so my thought is to either not keep the caribiner clipped on the outside of the bag or to always remember to keep it in front of you . . . any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 >I unfortuantely still have half a roll but got the sweep >right last night, just lifted the head . . . did a couple >cowboy re-entries and Kevin even got Julia out of her >boat!!!!! Kevin did about a hundred rolls until he actually >made himself dizzy I hear - we're still wondering if that's >perhaps from the motion or water in the ear or a combination >of both? Um, not quite a hundred rolls . To clarify, on the way off the lake, I rolled four times in quick succession on the same side and although I did not get dizzy while in the boat, I did as I tried to exit when I reached the shore. Now, this could be do to doing the rolls quickly in succession, but I'm also curious if it had anything to do with either water hitting the ear canal, essentially causing a bit of vertigo, or perhaps not replenshing the air supply amply enough between each roll. Curious as to thoughts on this... >As I was turning around in the boat to face forward, the >caribiner caught and clipped onto the strap of the back of >my seat. To clarify, the seat-back in Gilly's Aquanaut is attached to the bulkhead with a set of small straps. The carabiner was clipped to the provided loop on the tow belt for quick deployment as has been suggested to me many times. In this case, we would that the carabiner did not simply latch on to the webbing, it PUNCTURED it and became quite difficult to dislodge. Had Gilly flipped again in that position, it would have been very difficult to near impossible for her to wet exit. This may have been a fluke, but it's a fluke I would really like to avoid in the future. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffcasey Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I've become a fan of deck-mounted tows. They aren't too hard to set up (Rick Crangle was my mentor on that), and it is one less thing to get tangled up on your body. It is also a bit less punishing if you have to tow for an extended distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 For one example of a deck mounted tow, you can see either Dee's or my boats. There might be a picture in the blog photos, but I'm afraid to list the address lest I be lambasted severely for abusing the message board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillian Posted June 14, 2006 Author Share Posted June 14, 2006 Bob, totally understand If you're going to be at Tuesday's Mystic session next week, I'll take a look - thank you . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Not sure which tow system you are using. I use the Northwater and I keep it on the front but take the biner and tuck it into my PFD just in front of my shoulder through the arm hole. This keeps it always in the same place and I never have to think about where it is. It allows for easy deployment with the bag in front, once clipped on, I just pull the velcro bag open and it slides around to the rear while under tow. It never gets in the way during rescues and I use the bit between the bottom of the PFD and the top of the bag to park my paddle when launching and putting my skirt on. Able to put it there and lean forward to hold it in place. If I had a deck mounted system, I think I would still carry a waist mounted belt too. Belt system can be handed to someone else, deck system can't. Suz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 >This may have been a fluke, but it's a fluke I >would really like to avoid in the future. Any thoughts? About such stuff I doubt there are right and wrong answers, as opposed to judgments/margins to set. However, this is my $.02. Its the flukes that will get you. Don't consider them flukes, that view will get you too. As said recently take it as a given if a line is long enough to wrap around your neck, it will. Carabiners and lines will do amazing things and the rougher and more chaotic the situation (which is really the only time it is critical for things to work well) the more likely they will do so. I would be very reluctant to ever have a carbiner attached to me in any location where it might get located, dislodged, whatever to where I could not unload and handle it readily with either hand. Otherwise you are one odd click from from tied in a way you do not know and no way to unclip. Yes, you could then pull out your trusty whatever and cut away, but.... Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerPollock Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I think you should be lambasted severly no matter what you do . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 The carabiner was attached to its own belt and not the person. Again, it did not click closed on the site, rather it pierced the webstrap and became lodged. The only way this fluke could have been prevented would be if it remained in its bag (this is the Northwater Sea-tec tow belt), which would mean easy and quick deployment would be compromised. Even the way Suz described carrying it could in theory have led to the same result that Gillian experienced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 >The carabiner was attached to its own belt and not the >person. But the belt was attached to the person, right? > Again, it did not click closed on the site, rather >it pierced the webstrap and became lodged. But the end result is the same or worse actually? I have seen carbiners get stuck on and opened from an amazing number of odd events. I confess to being slightly paranoid about them as a result. > The only way >this fluke could have been prevented would be if it remained >in its bag (this is the Northwater Sea-tec tow belt), which >would mean easy and quick deployment would be compromised. These are the margins one works with. How important is speed of deployment/need for deployment v. the odds of stuff going wrong? Pay your penny and take your choice. >Even the way Suz described carrying it could in theory have >led to the same result that Gillian experienced. No free lunch. You just play the odds as you see them. Hopefully with good judgement. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillian Posted June 14, 2006 Author Share Posted June 14, 2006 Well if someone wants a tow from me going forward, they better learn how to hang on with their hands! I am now anti-caribiner . . . (kidding of course) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I use a Northwater tow bag too, and have found keeping the carabinier in the bag is no problem . I got a NW bag with a “gaping” mouth on the recommendation of Mr. Nystrom, who advised that one should consider not only ease of deployment but also ease in stowing your rig once you’re finished with it. I found that in practise, stowing everything quickly was indeed a good feature. The biner stows at the top of the pouch , and its very big so its easy to grab. The bag also can roll up into a tighter roll by using a second strip of Velcro on the bag . My towline is not attached to the bag at all but comes out & connects to the quick release strap that is integral to my PFD . If I need to quick release, the buckle on the front frees the strap and the towline slides off, but the bag stays with me. I had not thought of this set up from a safety point of view, but in light of Gillian’s account, I now realize that having the carabinier safe & tucked away is a good thing. The highlight of the practise session, however, was the impressive Cleopatra's needle performed by our friend in the yellow Shadow. His bow (or was it the stern?) pointed skyward, and the moment seemed to call for Kevin and Gillian to grab hold of the boat, scramble to its highest point together as if on the Titanic in its death throes, Gillian could then turn and cry out "Kevin, this is where we first met..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Wow, I guess I must have been underwater when all that happened... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Our deck mounted systems use 'biners that are normally behind the cockpit, relatively safe as regards entanglement. It is pretty easy to reach behind and grab the 'biner with one hand and thus also easy to detach to pass to someone with a similar means of attachment. I would expect a belt system would require two hands and stowing the paddle so in such a means of attachment were available passing such a system would be not only feasible but faster and less risky. Since we're discussing tows I'll relate how I found a flaw in my current long(er) tow. It is a bagged unit and I expected to attach the bag to the towee('s boat). This is the free end should I wish to throw the bag. The bag is too large to be readily fed under even a loose deck line. I expect to use biners so I could grab either end of the belt, thus using the rope end unless I want to throw the bag. Not sure how often I'll need to do this anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcohn Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 You've demonstrated why in scuba diving circles, particularly cave diving, carabineers are known as “suicide clips.” Their only solution is to never use them and substitute clips that will not accidentally attach to a line. A couple of examples: http://www.sonic.net/~rocky/abequipclips.htm http://www.dis-uk.org/safetykit.htm You may have had vertigo from a temperature difference between your ears. From http://www.skin-diver.com/departments/scub...o.asp?theID=338 “A diver with a full wetsuit is diving in cold water. When he pulls the hood out from his ear to relieve a pressure difference, he notices the surface tilting and his buddies see that he is spinning in the water. The spinning sensation caused by the cold water entering his ear canal disappears in about three minutes…….. The first diver created a temperature difference between the two inner ear balance organs, thus causing a sensation of imbalance. The brain's effort to correct the misperceived imbalance caused vertigo. When the water in the ear canal warmed up to body temperature, the confusing imbalance disappeared and sensation returned to normal.” Ralph Cohn Elaho DS, blue & white with yellow trim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Many thanks for the vertigo info...from the description it sounds pretty close to what I experienced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillian Posted June 14, 2006 Author Share Posted June 14, 2006 Oh yeah, I forgot that highlight - Jason I think I left a couple scuff marks on your boat, my bad . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 > I am now >anti-caribiner . . . > >(kidding of course) Seriously, don't accept anything you read or are told as "gospel". Apply your own experience and judgement to the matter giving due deference of course, but make sure it works for you and it makes sense to to you in the context of how you do things and what feels "right". Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 There has been a lot of talk about "flukes" -- are you sure you mean flukes and not "flooks"? There's a big difference, after all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 ... >As I was turning around in the boat to face forward, the >caribiner caught and clipped onto the strap of the back of >my seat. I didn't realize it at the time, but I went to sit >up, realized I was attached very firmly to my boat, and I >wasn't sure by what. Had I happened to flip over it would >not have been good There are a number of things that can entrap you in the cockpit, though a tow biner clipping itself to a backband is a new one on me. The classical one is an open-toed sandal getting a footpeg wedged between the sandal and the foot. I also once caught a waist cord on a bathing suit in a nice V-shaped slot between the seat and the hull, which neatly grabbed and held the knot at then end of the tie-cord. I discovered the problem only when I tried to get out of the boat at the end of the session. If I had needed to wet exit, it would not have been fun! That's when I switched from a bathing suit to thin neoprene paddling shorts for summer wear. --David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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