Great Pond -Sun 5/27 11:00 a.m.

[cathyfoley]

I'll be at Great Pond at 11:00. Easy paddle, practice strokes, wet

exits, play around. Willing to practice rescues also. Still adjusting

outfitting on new boat (P&H Cetus) so just want to paddle and have some fun. Anyone is welcome to join me. Water temp in the lake is plus side of

60.

[jason]

Are you ready to post a review of the boat? What's your thought of the 4th hatch?

Thanks -Jason

[cathyfoley]

Not a full one. I've only paddled it twice on flat water. I didn't like the seat so took it out after the last paddle and installed a home-made foam seat and NSI whitewater backband. The seat would be fine for most paddlers, in fact its a nice seat. My fat butt just didn't fit well and I felt too high in the boat. I finished the outfitting yesterday and will go and make final adjustments or more changes after some more flat water practice today. Once I've been out in the ocean a few times, I will give a better opinion.

Having said that, here's my intial thoughts.

It's very fast! (and I'm a slow paddler)

It tracks in a straight line very poorly unless you are up to full cruising speed(at least on flat water). The rear end slides out almost like a race car skidding. In low-brace turns with some forward mommentum, it is easy to change directions 180 degrees on flat water without taking additional strokes. It edges really well. I can edge this boat much more than my Ellesmere. In spite of being 17-10 long, it's a pretty playful boat.

I absolutely love the 4th little hatch. Its easy to reach and the hatch cover is easy to remove and replace.

It's also much lighter in weight than I anticipated and very easy to carry.

[jason]

Thanks for the review, I will have to try one once they release the HV model. The issues you are having with tracking scare me a little. As you learn more about the boat please keep us posted.

Thanks -Jason

[cathyfoley]

Jason:

I don't think the tracking issue is anything major. If the boat was loaded with gear, I'm sure it would track fine. Remember, the Cetus is an expedition boat. Without gear, its a very playful boat. I paddled all afternoon and when I really needed to go just in a straight line, I dropped 1/4 skeg and it tracked fine. Without the skeg, it was also easy to make slight stroke adjustments and boat lean to compensate. (but I'm lazy and preferred some skeg) One very good thing about the Cetus that I like is the skeg control. It's a rope skeg with a notched slide control. It's very easy to control just the exact amount of skeg you want. I'll be very interested myself to see what people with real paddling skills think of it.

[Doug]

Hi Cathy,

I just got my Cetus today. Can't wait to paddle it. How do you like it 11 months later?

Doug

[cathyfoley]

Hi Cathy,

I just got my Cetus today. Can't wait to paddle it. How do you like it 11 months later?

Doug

Doug:

I still LOVE the boat! I hated the seat from day one and took it out after the first paddle. But I'm sure that is just personal preference. I have had a few problems. This winter in extremely cold conditions, two of the "tupperwear" hard plastic Kajaksport hatches cracked right in half. I changed out all four hatches to rubber this past weekend. The skeg has also given me problems. The original Cetus' were made with a barrel clasp that was too narrow for the slot and mine has been pulling through. I spoke to Jim Hager of P&H at the Kittery Show and he is sending me a new piece. You should have no problems with the newer Cetus model. the great thing is the skeg is super easy to fix. Again, I'm very happy with mine and will likely buy a poly Cetus as more hit the market and use it for rock play, which I am hesitant to do in my ultra light kevlar Cetus.

[PeterB]

Picked up my Cetus yesterday. Eight month wait , as I’d custom ordered a boat (Retailers have boats more ready available) with keel strip, , no footpegs, custom bulkhead and deck color. (sort of a putty grey, would be well camouflaged in woodlands or mangrove , except for the red trim and decklines.)

Superb workmanship; finish and layup, hardware etc. appear to be perfect. Well-designed deck rigging. 4th day hatch is excellent. I‘ve always wondered why this feature wasn’t incorporated into more boats, as it makes all the sense in the world.

The seat fits me, a rare thing. I’ll probably not have to change the seat and won’t need to do much cockpit outfitting at all. . Lots of footroom, which mystifies me as the boat has rather slender, shallow look fore of cockpit.

I took it straight to Odiorne and paddled it yesterday in pretty stiff, raw winds, close to 20k.I paddled without footrests, as the foam insert was not yet cut to fit. I missed having the use of my feet and lower kegs, both to get power and to brace myself to keep from sliding around in the seat. (The bandsaw will be humming this evening) I think I might keep the backband as it can be tucked under the coaming and is generally out of the way, then if I need that extra room I can stuff something( like a small thermarest, or water) in there behind the seat underneath the backband, where in my other boats there’s a block of minicell. .

Fabulous edging ability (some call that secondary stability?) Boat is most comfortable on edge. Responds with alacrity to corrective strokes, as if startled into action.

I was paddling with someone and we had agreed to stay in protected water ,but I briefly ventured out past the jetty at Little Harbor, where waves were crashing, and felt most comfy in that bumpy water. This is a boat for big seas.

I’ll need to work on weathercocking, as the boat still feels skeg- dependent to me, and I’ve fallen into the I-should-be-ashamed–to-use-my-skeg way of thinking at this time.

Looking forward to paddling the boat loaded.

Well, perhaps we now have a NE.Mass/Southern NH Cetus quorum, and should have a Cetus cotillion sometime, someplace like Great Bay, or Great Pond, or Odiorne….

[spider]

Picked up my Cetus yesterday. Eight month wait , as I’d custom ordered a boat (Retailers have boats more ready available) with keel strip, , no footpegs, custom bulkhead and deck color. (sort of a putty grey, would be well camouflaged in woodlands or mangrove , except for the red trim and decklines.)

Superb workmanship; finish and layup, hardware etc. appear to be perfect. Well-designed deck rigging. 4th day hatch is excellent. I‘ve always wondered why this feature wasn’t incorporated into more boats, as it makes all the sense in the world.

The seat fits me, a rare thing. I’ll probably not have to change the seat and won’t need to do much cockpit outfitting at all. . Lots of footroom, which mystifies me as the boat has rather slender, shallow look fore of cockpit.

Yes, a fine looking boat it is.

[Doug]

I think a "The 1st Annual Cetus Cotillion" sounds great. I'm jealous you ran right out and paddled yours yesterday. I haven't even figured out when I'm going to tell my wife. Both of our kayaks will have the same birthday, or at least delivery days. Mine is a Mango deck with yellow lines and a Kevlar hull. Nice contrast. Let's all plan that protected trip soon. That sounds excellent.

Cathy, Thanks for the response. I think a little weight is needed to have these beasties track perfectly strait. Without a little skeg action the stern will skid a bit if you are on the lighter side. I paddled one for about an hour at the Sweetwater Symposium. Was surprised it handled the surf waves so well. Steve Maynard paddled one all week. His effortless control of this boat was a great thing to watch.

Doug

[cathyfoley]

I think a "The 1st Annual Cetus Cotillion" sounds great. I'm jealous you ran right out and paddled yours yesterday. I haven't even figured out when I'm going to tell my wife. Both of our kayaks will have the same birthday, or at least delivery days. Mine is a Mango deck with yellow lines and a Kevlar hull. Nice contrast. Let's all plan that protected trip soon. That sounds excellent.

Cathy, Thanks for the response. I think a little weight is needed to have these beasties track perfectly strait. Without a little skeg action the stern will skid a bit if you are on the lighter side. I paddled one for about an hour at the Sweetwater Symposium. Was surprised it handled the surf waves so well. Steve Maynard paddled one all week. His effortless control of this boat was a great thing to watch.

Doug

Weight alone doesn't seem to keep it straight. I'm heavy and always carry a good amount of safety gear...and still have the rear end slide out without any skeg.

[subaruguru]

Weight alone doesn't seem to keep it straight. I'm heavy and always carry a good amount of safety gear...and still have the rear end slide out without any skeg.

Mine is a "clear" (blackC/yellowK) hull, green deck, yellow trim...only 50lbs w/ compass!.

When plopped next to my Force5 I noticed that the seat/cockpit of the Cetus is a full 1/2 foot forward of the F5! I had already realized that the Cetus is a plump 22.5" beam BEHIND the cockpit, following its Swedeform fat-ass design, despite its nominal 21.5" beam.

Like, Peter's, mine arrived with a custom bulkhead and thick foam insert, resulting in a too-tight fit.

Yet thigh/knee placement was perfect; LOTS of room behind the seat, though, so it didn't take this curious brain long to figure out that it was possible to move the seat back instead of shaving the footwall insert. The molded plastic lips for the seat anchors are long enough to allow sliding the seat back a full 3cm (the rear bottom foam snugs up against the rear bulkhead very nicely); drilling new holes in the soft plastic was easy. Fear of upsetting the design "trim" or affecting the turning ability nagged me, but since the seat is so far forward in the cockpit to begin with it's easy to rationalize sitting a bit further back...more toward a "normal" position.

Removing the supplied foam seat bottom pad drops center of gravity noticeably, yet that coccyx area molded seat edge "bumps" painfully. I'm hoping that grabbing that extra 3cm set it far enough back so that I don't have to shave the footwall insert nor steepen the angle with the cockpit rear wall sufficiently to make laybacks awkward. We'll see....

If this fails the $40 Necky Chatham seat might be a reasonable mod, as was the case with the Impex....

Back to back inaugural flatwater paddles in 10k winds confirmed the Cetus' relative skittish playfulness compared with the tracky F5. Being high volume, the Cetus floats up unloaded enough to practically spin on axis! Peter describes its dynamics nicely.

But the cockpit placement and Swedeform fat-ass shape remind me of automotive metaphors of rear wheel drive oversteering vs front wheel drive plowing when pushed into a corner (edging to carve). With the Cetus one sits very far forward, with the center of gravity seemingly ahead of the moment of rotation, so that a turn sustains itself without continued provocation...almost like an oversteer drift with a fat-ass RWD sportscar.

Loading down the Cetus to its design purpose as an expedition 'yak would keep more waterline immersed when turning, but if the added weight is balanced then I'm not sure if this playful oversteer would be affected much save for the feeling of added inertia.

The very forward cockpit placement simply means that the Cetus spins BEHIND you (like an old Porsche), whereas non-Swedeform boats (like the Fs) turn ahead/with the hipline....

It's very interesting to paddle the "big hood" F5 and feel it RESPOND linearly to a lean turn very obediently, in comparison to feeling the smaller-feeling, twitchier Cetus beg to turn a reducing-radius spiral at the drop of a hip! So it's a playboat?!

It'll be interesting to see if I keep the F5 for longer distances and windy outings and use the Cetus frequently on the Lakes and perhaps surfing (although the ultralight layup has already spidercracked from sitting on the cockpit rim, so it's NOT for rock play!).

It's reassuring to hear Cathy and Pete's comments re the Cetus' big sea behavior, as it indicates that it may be an ideal all-purpose design...but indeed skeg-dependent in the wind.

So where's out first annual Cetus barbeque?

[jason]

Mine is a "clear" (blackC/yellowK) hull, green deck, yellow trim...only 50lbs w/ compass!.

When plopped next to my Force5 I noticed that the seat/cockpit of the Cetus is a full 1/2 foot forward of the F5! I had already realized that the Cetus is a plump 22.5" beam BEHIND the cockpit, following its Swedeform fat-ass design, despite its nominal 21.5" beam.

Like, Peter's, mine arrived with a custom bulkhead and thick foam insert, resulting in a too-tight fit.

Yet thigh/knee placement was perfect; LOTS of room behind the seat, though, so it didn't take this curious brain long to figure out that it was possible to move the seat back instead of shaving the footwall insert. The molded plastic lips for the seat anchors are long enough to allow sliding the seat back a full 3cm (the rear bottom foam snugs up against the rear bulkhead very nicely); drilling new holes in the soft plastic was easy. Fear of upsetting the design "trim" or affecting the turning ability nagged me, but since the seat is so far forward in the cockpit to begin with it's easy to rationalize sitting a bit further back...more toward a "normal" position.

Removing the supplied foam seat bottom pad drops center of gravity noticeably, yet that coccyx area molded seat edge "bumps" painfully. I'm hoping that grabbing that extra 3cm set it far enough back so that I don't have to shave the footwall insert nor steepen the angle with the cockpit rear wall sufficiently to make laybacks awkward. We'll see....

If this fails the $40 Necky Chatham seat might be a reasonable mod, as was the case with the Impex....

Back to back inaugural flatwater paddles in 10k winds confirmed the Cetus' relative skittish playfulness compared with the tracky F5. Being high volume, the Cetus floats up unloaded enough to practically spin on axis! Peter describes its dynamics nicely.

But the cockpit placement and Swedeform fat-ass shape remind me of automotive metaphors of rear wheel drive oversteering vs front wheel drive plowing when pushed into a corner (edging to carve). With the Cetus one sits very far forward, with the center of gravity seemingly ahead of the moment of rotation, so that a turn sustains itself without continued provocation...almost like an oversteer drift with a fat-ass RWD sportscar.

Loading down the Cetus to its design purpose as an expedition 'yak would keep more waterline immersed when turning, but if the added weight is balanced then I'm not sure if this playful oversteer would be affected much save for the feeling of added inertia.

The very forward cockpit placement simply means that the Cetus spins BEHIND you (like an old Porsche), whereas non-Swedeform boats (like the Fs) turn ahead/with the hipline....

It's very interesting to paddle the "big hood" F5 and feel it RESPOND linearly to a lean turn very obediently, in comparison to feeling the smaller-feeling, twitchier Cetus beg to turn a reducing-radius spiral at the drop of a hip! So it's a playboat?!

It'll be interesting to see if I keep the F5 for longer distances and windy outings and use the Cetus frequently on the Lakes and perhaps surfing (although the ultralight layup has already spidercracked from sitting on the cockpit rim, so it's NOT for rock play!).

It's reassuring to hear Cathy and Pete's comments re the Cetus' big sea behavior, as it indicates that it may be an ideal all-purpose design...but indeed skeg-dependent in the wind.

So where's out first annual Cetus barbeque?

The Cetus is way too nice a boat to BBQ.

All jokes aside moving the seat instead of messing with the foam at your feet can change the balance point and the behavior of the boat.

-Jason

[subaruguru]

The Cetus is way too nice a boat to BBQ.

All jokes aside moving the seat instead of messing with the foam at your feet can change the balance point and the behavior of the boat.

-Jason

Hi Jason.

I fully realize this, but given a stationary seat, presumably set for the "average" height/weight paddler, a larger/longer paddler's center of mass will be farther forward, so moving the seat back a bit more probably returns the center of mass (and rotation/handling) back to where originally intended. That's my best guess, anyway. I would think that especially for a big guy like you that moving seats back has become SOP.

Cheers. Ern

[jason]

Hi Jason.

I fully realize this, but given a stationary seat, presumably set for the "average" height/weight paddler, a larger/longer paddler's center of mass will be farther forward, so moving the seat back a bit more probably returns the center of mass (and rotation/handling) back to where originally intended. That's my best guess, anyway. I would think that especially for a big guy like you that moving seats back has become SOP.

Cheers. Ern

I don't I just picked up a new WW boat last weekend with an adjustable seat and it balances perfectly in the default centered location.

-Jason

[alcoons]

Hi Cetus owners. FYI, I heard so many things about the Cetus that threw me off the first time I paddled one. I think I dumped twice. I might have said some of the same things that I am reading on this tread. However, once I had a little seat time I found those problems often came from overreacting.

Observation: I had trouble with tracking/straight line travel initially because I was overreacting. It turns so quickly on its own that I realized I only had to make very very slight adjustments compared to my old boat. Now what use to be perhaps a "held edge" to make a turn is something like "edge it to start the turn but release the edge immediately." Now that I have had one-half a summer in the boat, I wonder why I listened to all the comments about how to paddle it and didn't just do the basics. It seems to work for me.

Anyway, that is what this non-guru, heavier than most paddlers has found out.

[EEL]

Now that I have had one-half a summer in the boat, I wonder why I listened to all the comments about how to paddle it and didn't just do the basics. It seems to work for me.Anyway, that is what this non-guru, heavier than most paddlers has found out.

My beginner's opinion is a boat will always teach the paddler how it likes to be paddled if only the paddler will listen. Often boats that seem contrary/willful/wayward are the most enjoyable/exciting/rewarding to dance with once you listen.

Ed Lawson