hubris and hussey sound

[Guest guest]

I was originally going to post a trip report about this past weekend but think that maybe it should be here as an object lesson in circumstances and some observations. Ignore or repost to trip board as the message board gods see fit.

This past weekend 4 of us paddled up to Casco Bay for some camping and relaxation. And it was great until the weather turned to crap.

When I left on Thursday, the forecast was pretty benign for Casco Bay going on into Monday. By Saturday and Sunday morning that had all changed with small craft advisories for Sunday and Gale Warnings for Monday.

So on Sunday, we had 2 fairly experienced paddlers with 2 fairly inexperienced paddlers in 20-30 mile hour winds in 8 foot seas. We needed to nudge boats about in the wind to get them to come about to a more suitable heading and we had a 3+ mile tow in those conditions. Nothing here was fun. It was a slog and it was one more thing going wrong away from being a real hairball.

In 20/20 hindsight, here are some observations -

1. we should have left Saturday. We knew Saturday afternoon that the forecast was calling for small craft advisory late on Sunday and then Gale warnings on Monday. Well, in truth, they got there earlier than we suspected and some of the winds on Sunday were Gale force, not sustained, but they were all of that and too strong for mucking around in with folks that didn’t want to play in them.

2. boat mounted tows are wonderful. Towing someone in these conditions is difficult and a boat mounted tow takes all the stress off of the tower and puts it on the boat. You may still be jerked back a bit depending on where the towee is in relation to you on a swell, but it’s the boat that gets jerked back and not you by your mid section and that’s a relatively comfortable thing.

3. our ratio was all wrong. 2/2 is too few experienced paddlers. If weaker paddlers 1 and 2 are down and under tow and then something happens to either of the 2 more experienced paddlers, you have a real hairball. You need to up the ratio in conditions – seems like 4/2 would be better. That way, you still have 2 on the weaker paddlers, you allow for one experienced paddler to have a problem and still have a competent backup and then one more competent paddler riding shotgun. Don’t know what the BCU / ACA calls for but common sense seems to me to be something around there.

4. always have a backup plan. We didn’t originally want to go to the lee passage we took, but it became apparent quickly where we needed to go and even then, we had a few outs. There are other islands, we have gear and those islands have ferries. No shame in riding out on a much larger boat in much larger conditions.

5. have a shore contact. Better yet, have a competent shore contact. We had a friend who knew where we were, what our original plan was and who was actually considering calling a power boat for us had we needed it. he monitored the weather from where he was and was proactive in leaving a vmail on a cell phone for us. Good shepherds are hard to come by but when you have one, the flock is sooo much safer.

6. we had a paddler bonk. She ate, but blood sugar was low and the carbs she had just weren’t making the cut quick enough. Hot (any liquid with no caffeine) loaded with sugar seems like it would have done. Wish I had had some with me. Generally I have hot tang (yeah, astronauts, etc) but I know of some others that use hot, unset jell-o or really sweet punch. Whatever – just get the bug juice in with all that wonderful sugar and then have the carb/protein power bar. Not a nutritionist (can barely spell nutrishinist) by any means but what we tried didn’t work and I have never bonked using above – any other thoughts?

7. ROTATE –From a practical standpoint, can you over rotate on your forward stroke? Dunno, but never seen it. Use the big core muscles in your gut, use your legs and your back and forget those little things on your arms.

so for what it’s worth, there you go. Like most things, it could have gone better OR it could have gone worse. As ever and especially with the fall season and more challenging conditions upon us, we can examine what has happened and learn from our failures and our successes.

[jeffcasey]

It is amazing how fast it can hit the fan and a nice day can become an adventure (or worse). Glad you didn't make the news.

Bonking: I bonk easily, and in large groups seems like there is almost always somebody else out of gas. I always have several of those goo paks (avail at the checkout at REI) in my kneetube. They are gross, but get you back on the air very quickly. They come with and without caffeine (and double-caffeinated....zing!). Easy to keep in the boat for a season if unused, and no thermos to thrash around for in conditions.

Tows: I agree on the deck mounted tow, but since installing mine I have had a couple occasions when I wanted to pass a tow off to somebody else. I have now gotten to the ridiculous position of owning both...and occasionally having both ready.

[Guest guest]

>6. we had a paddler bonk. She ate, but blood sugar was low

>and the carbs she had just weren’t making the cut quick

>enough. Hot (any liquid with no caffeine) loaded with sugar

>seems like it would have done. Wish I had had some with me.

> Generally I have hot tang (yeah, astronauts, etc) but I

>know of some others that use hot, unset jell-o or really

>sweet punch. Whatever – just get the bug juice in with all

>that wonderful sugar and then have the carb/protein power

>bar. Not a nutritionist (can barely spell nutrishinist) by

>any means but what we tried didn’t work and I have never

>bonked using above – any other thoughts?

Due to a chronic overproduction of insulin, I bonk every three hours almost regardless of what I have eaten. I carry fruit leather in my PFD (and more in my boat.) It fits great there and is always there when I need it. It doesn't require opening a hatch or vaccuum bottle and once I get it out of the package it is hands free.

>7. ROTATE –From a practical standpoint, can you over rotate

>on your forward stroke? Dunno, but never seen it. Use the

>big core muscles in your gut, use your legs and your back

>and forget those little things on your arms.

I have strained a back muscle a couple of times while rotating far back for a sweep stroke. However, this is also a recurring injury and I might be doing something wrong. I am no expert.

Dee Hall

Impex Currituck, Blue over Ivory

[eneumeier]

>Tows: I agree on the deck mounted tow, but since installing

>mine I have had a couple occasions when I wanted to pass a

>tow off to somebody else.

I carry a belt (homemade like my deckmounted tow) that can be used to pass off to someone else. I'll show you how it works.

> I have now gotten to the

>ridiculous position of owning both...and occasionally having

>both ready.

Me too. But I don't think it is ridiculous.

Glad everyone was okay.

Liz N.

[Guest guest]

I have found that the disadvantage of the deck mounted tow is that everyone sees it on your boat before they finish gearing up. Then they throw their belt into their car because they really don't want to tow anyway. I like the idea of hiding a second belt in the hatch that can be passed off to them.

Dee Hall

Impex Currituck, Blue over Ivory

[Guest guest]

>> Not a nutritionist (can barely spell nutrishinist) by

>>any means but what we tried didn’t work and I have never

>>bonked using above – any other thoughts?

Once a paddler has become hypoglycemic it is difficult to get them back into shape quickly, you have to take your time. Rapidly ingesting sugary food can ironically make things worse as the rapid return of blood glucose can induce an insulin surge and consequently decrease blood glucose again. Best course of action is prevention - eating little and often.

Should 'bonk' occur, the paddler should eat slowly and avoid the temptation to gorge. The pace will HAVE to be dropped, or a tow put on to take the metabolic demand off the bonked paddler. Slowing them down will allow them to utilize slower-burning fat stores more and take the demands off their blood glucose.

So really, by towing them you took the most sensible course of action.

My 2c,

Binks

[Guest guest]

pretty sure that if a technique hurts you then

a.) you either did it wrong or perhaps

b.) there is an injury or some other obstacle preventing it's performance.

[Brian Nystrom]

I'm glad to hear that you all made it back safe and sound. Thanks for sharing your experience, so that we all may learn from it.

The most effective way I've found to prevent the bonk is to carry an energy drink and have it accessible enough that you can drink frequently, even in rough conditions. While it won't replace eating entirely, the steady stream of fuel is a good hedge against both bonk and dehydration, which can compound each other.

It's important to be aware of the potential negative effects of overly concentrated drinks. While intuitively one would think that liquid jello or other such drinks would be a big help to a bonked paddler, that is only true if they're properly hydrated. The body can only absorb solutions at a specific concentration (isotonic solutions). Consuming highly concentrated drinks actually causes water to be drawn from your system to dilute the solution enough for absorption. If a paddler is already dehydrated, it will make their condition worse, rather than better. Abdominal cramps may result, as well.

Even many bottled "sports drinks" like Gatorade are too concentrated. I find that most work best when mixed 50:50 with water. Powdered drinks are generally a better bet, since most I've used are isotonic at their recomended mix ratio. They're also a LOT cheaper. My personal favorite is Hydrolyte (aka "E.R.G.") from Gookinaid, which is available at REI or direct from the manufacturer (www.gookinaid.com). It's really cheap by the case.

Lastly, you need to be able to drink no matter what the conditions are. For me, that means using a hydration bladder in a pack on the back of my PFD. Regardless of the system you use, you need to be able to drink while paddling and it needs to be well secured. Bottles stored under bungees or in the cockpit can be less than useless in rough conditions.

[Guest guest]

Brian, far be it from me to tell you that you're wrong but...

> The body can only absorb solutions at a

>specific concentration (isotonic solutions).

Not the case, isotonic fluid is just absorbed faster.

>Even many bottled "sports drinks" like Gatorade are too

>concentrated.

Gatorade IS isotonic - see your own comment above.

Also, Gatorade contains glucose and thus can utilize glucose/sodium co-transporters in the gut for faster absorbtion of sugar and electrolytes as well as water.

>I find that most work best when mixed 50:50

>with water.

It might be more drinkable, but it doesn't "work best".

Binks

[Richard N]

For about 15 years Gateraid had sponsored important scientific research on hydration and exercise.

Recent papers:

Move around the site. You will be impressed.

Very important: Do Not Dilute!

Richard

Living to learn.

Romany White, Blue trim

[Guest guest]

Dr. A. Binks,

As a physiologist, you have set me straight on this issue many times. I can't "stomach" full strength sports drinks, I water them down even though you and the makers warn against this. Hey, if they worked better with more water, the makers would be happy to cut costs and water them down at the bottling plant.

I never really had much appreciation for this issue until about a month ago when I paddled a true 26 mile Pro-marathon (yes, we got paid to show up and race). It was a cloudy, drizzly day about 60 deg. After flogging myself to keep up with the pack, after 3 hours of effort at the 20 mile mark I was wasted, shivering, and started to fall asleep while paddling ! , I had to pull over and get the tube of goo(sp) that was now out of reach behind the seat and put on my jacket. Within a minute, I felt 100% better. Even though I'd been drinking 3 liters of 50% sports drink and have plenty of body fat, I was "out of gas".

Do lower rates of effort keep you at a fat burning state? I think you told me that we have 80 minutes of fuel till we need to take in more. Is this true if you never push it and stay at lower efforts and metablize fat?

Rick, sounds like you had a good experience, "Live and Learn"

[christopherG]

Captain Stoehrer,

What exactly is "bonk" or "bonking", please? I have never encountered this word before and I cannot find it in Webster's (closest: bonkers = mad, crazy). Is this bonkers, perhaps, what you imply? Did one of your party have a fit of craziness...? Or is it closer to "honking"?

Most relieved to hear you came out of it in good order!

[Guest guest]

>Captain Stoehrer,

>

>What exactly is "bonk" or "bonking", please?

Bonk is the term (I think, initially heard from french cyclists) to describe the 'orrible sensations and fatigue caused by low blood sugar. FYI, English cyclists call it 'the knock' in order to avoid embarrasing misunderstandings.

[Guest guest]

>

>

>Do lower rates of effort keep you at a fat burning state?

When you exercise you burn carbs and fat. But, fat is made available for use at about a 1/4 of the rate that carbohydrates are. Consequently, you rely on the more readily available carbs and the harder the exercise the more you have to rely on them. Fat just can't be made available fast enough to be useful.

If you train for endurance the enzymes that release fat are increased, so you can use fat earlier and to a greater degree - thereby conserving some carbohydrates. But even marathon runners still have to burn carbohydrate, fat just isn't a good exercise fuel.

>I think you told me that we have 80 minutes of fuel till we

>need to take in more. Is this true if you never push it and

>stay at lower efforts and metablize fat?

I wasn't me that told you that. You'd have to be at very low levels of exercise to primarily use fat.

The best carbohydrate to use is muscle glycogen as you can store enough to keep you going for about 70mins at 80% of maximum effort. Plus, there are ways to improve the level of glycogen in muscle, such as the infamous carbo-loading.

btw. the annoying thing is that if you could release fat fast enough to be useful, the average person could fuel a 80% max effort for 4,000 minutes.

[Guest guest]

and i wonder what term they would use to describe the "...orrible sensation as the skinny texan leaves zem in se dust." how you say - embarrassed? oui-oui

[adelavega]

>>Captain Stoehrer,

>>

>>What exactly is "bonk" or "bonking", please?

>

>Bonk is the term (I think, initially heard from french

>cyclists) to describe the 'orrible sensations and fatigue

>caused by low blood sugar. FYI, English cyclists call it

>'the knock' in order to avoid embarrasing misunderstandings.

It's similar to what long distance runners sometimes refer to as "hitting the wall" Indeed, dictionary.com defines bonk as "To collide against something: His head bonked against the wall as he fell." So, I suppose that may well be the origin of the phrase, though I have no real idea.

It can be the effect of exertion coupled with too little food or poor food choices, or it can be a sign of a bigger problem (like hypoglycemia). In the right (wrong?) circumstances bonking can happen to anyone, even Lance himself bonked on Joux-Plane back in '00, but if strange symptoms persist the bonker (bonkie?) should see their doctor.

--Amy

[Brian Nystrom]

I'm certainly not going to argue with the doctor! ;-)

Seriously, thanks for correcting my misconceptions, Andrew.

I'm not sure what the issue with me and Gatorade is, but I just can't drink the stuff straight out of the bottle. Hydrolyte is isotonic and also contains glucose (the original name was E.R.G.- Electrolyte Replacement with Glucose), but it seems much lighter and more palatable.

Other than reduced rates of carb absorption, are there any other disadvantages to drinking fluids that are more dilute than isotonic? For the length of time I paddle and the effort level involved, I don't imagine that hyponatremia would be a problem.

[Guest guest]

>Webster's (closest: bonkers = mad, crazy)

I've just noticed - Websters!!! Good grief, man! You weren't hoping to find a decent answer in that were you?!

Another poofty limey.

[Guest guest]

Since low blood sugar is something I deal with all day long, I have years of research and experimentation on the subject. Granted, my case may be somewhat atypical, but perhaps everyone can learn something from it.

I don't find that my blood sugar is any less stable while kayaking than during other activities (or lack thereof). In fact, it seems a little less so, probably because it is less stressful than my job. I still have to eat more often than most, if not all, of the people I paddle with.

The following are the key points:

1. No refined carbohydrates before or during paddling. This includes sugar, white flour, white rice, or alcohol.

2. No caffeine, ever.

3. Big breakfast with a balance of complex carbohydrates, fat, and protein.

4. Small lunch during paddling with a balance of complex carbohydrates, fat, and protein.

5. It's time to gas up on lunch or at least an interim fruit leather as soon as my arms feel rubbery or I have trouble deciding whether or not I need to eat.

6. I will need to eat lunch within 30 minutes of having the fruit leather.

7. The longer I wait to gas back up, the more difficult it will be to get back to "normal" and stay there.

8. If I have difficulty getting the fruit leather out of the wrapper, I have waited far too long.

Dee Hall

Impex Currituck, Blue over Smoky Ivory

[Guest guest]

>Other than reduced rates of carb absorption, are there any

>other disadvantages to drinking fluids that are more dilute

>than isotonic?

There are proteins in the gut lining that transport electrolytes and glucose at the same time (this co-transport, saves energy). It turns out the other beneficial effect is that the water follows the electrolytes (osmosis and all that). So when all three are present in the gut, absorbtion of all three is increased.

Gatorade and the like (I don't work for Gatorade, really I don't) use this mechanism to get water absorbed out of the gut and into the blood-stream.

Practically, there's no need for something like a sports drink unless you're overly concerned about your performance. But in a race it could give you a few advantages:

1) The gut empties faster, and you're more comfortable.

2) you rehydrate faster.

3) efficient reabsorbtion means you have to drink less frequently - miss less paddle strokes.

4) Probably have to carry less fluid - less weight.

It's all pretty marginal though, although Gatorade would have you think differently.

[John Leonard]

Andrew, (and everyone else with an opinion)

Is there any advantage to using an off the shelf sports drink (like gatorade) to mixing your own energy drink. I have seen directions somewhere (a running website) about mixing orange juice, water, and a pinch of salt to make your own energy dring. It is pretty easy to control the concentration of glucose by figuring the calories per ounce from the serving size information. I'm not sure of a good way to figure salinity, but I read that a pinch per quart is about right.

I have tried it a few times and it SEEMS to work ok (although the camelback gets moldy quicker). I haven't tried it on any longer or really hard paddles, so I don't know for sure how it will work when you really need it.

I have been told that gatorade used to be an ideal sports drink, but they started making it double the concentration to attract more users as it would improve the taste. I don't know, but I have heard this in two wilderness medicine classes from seperate companies. Probably just antoher urban legend (does it become suburban legend if it's in the wilderness?).

Of course I have THE PLAN.... a d50 normal saline IV. We could fit an iv pump behind the seat, it would be perfect, lots of glucose and no need to stop and drink at all.

John

[guido]

Ken,

I have been using the G Push energy drinks which have eliminated the tummy problems I had been having with some of the other brands. It is based on Galactose (in addition to Maltodextrin) which is said to be less prone to cause gastric problems and is available in differing carbo percentages based on intended exercise duration. It might be worth a try.

Guy

[Guest guest]

>Andrew, (and everyone else with an opinion)

>

>Is there any advantage to using an off the shelf sports

>drink (like gatorade) to mixing your own energy drink.

No, you can easily mix your own (but Gatorade would have you think different). The World Health Organisation has a recipe they use to rehydrate dysenteric kids, which works by the same mechanism as Gatorade - but costs next to nothing. The ingredients are glucose, water, salt, but I've no clue about the proportions.

Your orange juice idea sounds good.

[Guest guest]

Glucose (aka Dextrose) is supposed to be absorbed more easily than sucrose and fructose which is what you are going to find in OJ. Also, the acidity of OJ might be a problem for heavy activity. If you want to use glucose, you can get the tablets or gel found in the diabetic section of CVS and dissolve them in water. Glucose is also a lot less sweet than the other sugars which would make it easier to tolerate in higher quantities.

I recently found an unsweetened electrolyte drink in the health food section at Stop and Shop. It's called Smartwater and has the electrolytes (including potassium) and a little flavoring. It's extremely easy to drink and probably wouldn't become much less so with some added glucose.

Dee Hall

Impex Currituck, Blue over Ivory

[eneumeier]

Since you asked for comments on the ratio of experienced to weaker paddlers issue ...

>In 20/20 hindsight, here are some observations -

>

>1. we should have left Saturday. We knew Saturday

>afternoon that the forecast was calling for small craft

>advisory late on Sunday and then Gale warnings on Monday.

>Well, in truth, they got there earlier than we suspected and

>some of the winds on Sunday were Gale force, not sustained,

>but they were all of that and too strong for mucking around

>in with folks that didn’t want to play in them.

I agree. When conditions change and weaker paddlers are on a trip the decision to change plans or cancel the trip has to be made promptly. Things can go downhill too quickly.

>3. our ratio was all wrong. 2/2 is too few experienced

>paddlers. If weaker paddlers 1 and 2 are down and under tow

>and then something happens to either of the 2 more

>experienced paddlers, you have a real hairball. You need to

>up the ratio in conditions – seems like 4/2 would be better.

> That way, you still have 2 on the weaker paddlers, you

>allow for one experienced paddler to have a problem and

>still have a competent backup and then one more competent

>paddler riding shotgun. Don’t know what the BCU / ACA calls

>for but common sense seems to me to be something around

>there.

I think this depends on where you are and how easy/hard it is to bail out, hitch a ride or stay put. On my Norway trip we encountered high winds while on an island. The group included some very weak paddlers who could not make the crossing in those conditions and few very strong paddlers. We stayed put and the winds died down for a night (gorgeous Artic light) crossing. We also had a ferry option off that island. The ratio posed no danger.

It sounds like you did a great job on the tow. I would also be concerned, however, that one of the towees might not be able to stay upright in those conditions. Then you might need to be doing a rafted tow (with the 2 weaker paddlers rafted) - scary thought.

If you have no option except to plow through the conditions you described, with weak paddlers, then I agree a 4/2 ratio would be needed. (Which means the converse: if you have less than that, stay put or hitch a ride if you can't find a lee course.)

>4. always have a backup plan. We didn’t originally want to

>go to the lee passage we took, but it became apparent

>quickly where we needed to go and even then, we had a few

>outs. There are other islands, we have gear and those

>islands have ferries. No shame in riding out on a much

>larger boat in much larger conditions.

Staying put and hunkering down should also be considered. So what if you miss a day or two of work? You brought extra food, right?

Thanks for posting this!

Liz N.