dan_f Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 I have been flirting with making a Greenland paddle, and have been studying Brian's very helpful book. The woodworking part looks straightforward, but having nearly zero experience paddling with a Greenland paddle, I am puzzled about the paddle dimensions, particularly the loom length. To choose the loom length, Brian and others suggest holding out a stick or ruler and measuring the distance between the outside of the thumb/forefinger circle on both hands. If the paddle were held in the same way, most of the hand would fall on the shoulder of the paddle. Is this the idea, or do most people typically move their hands closer together to hold the paddle on the loom?Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 He's at... http://www.bealepaddles.com/ He makes nice paddles too, pretty reasonably priced. He fits them to you using the techniques on the web site plus a dash of ineffable expertise. --David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 >If the paddle were held in the same way, most of the >hand would fall on the shoulder of the paddle. Is this the >idea...?Yes, that's exactly the idea. The standard grip on a GP is with the thumb and forefinger wrapped around the loom and the remaining three fingers wrapped over the base of the blade. Keep in mind that if the loom is a bit short, it's a pretty simple matter to lengthen it, so erring on the short side is preferable on your first paddle. One's first paddle is always an experiment, so don't fret over the details. Chances are that you'll make several paddles just to try out different designs, anyway. At ~ $20 a pop, it's no big deal to play around to your heart's content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roclough Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 I used the instructions referenced below. Had someone rough rhe outline on a band saw and finished the rest with a draw plane while camping.www.qajaqusa.org/QK/makegreen2.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_f Posted August 17, 2006 Author Share Posted August 17, 2006 Thanks for the responses. Brian's book provides a clear and detailed description of how to build the paddle. I was unfortunately ignorant of how to use the paddle, and the rationale behind the measurements.Brian - how about a brief description of the basics of holding and using a Greenland paddle in your next edition? This would provide context for the paddle dimension discussion. Some of us hate to follow even clear instructions without understanding why.Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcohn Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 I find after several experiments I like a loom about 2 inches wider than that measurement suggests. That is, when I raise my arms up from my sides I measure 18 inches and use a 20 inch loom.When we made a paddle for Miriam in Don Beale's class at Delmarva I used the same estimate, she measured 16 inches and we made the loom 18 inches. The next day we did Greg Stamer's basic Greenland paddling class. When he walked around and checked paddle sizing he commented that Miriam's loom was a bit too wide. Later when he watched her paddle, he suggested she might want a longer loom.The measurements suggested online are a starting point, you need to find what works best for you. Different areas in Greenland used different paddling styles, and I've never heard where that hands at sides estimate comes from. I wonder if it might be from a region where a short sliding stroke is preferred.Ralph CohnElaho DS, blue & white with yellow trim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeCourcy Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 "I find after several experiments I like a loom about 2inches wider than that measurement suggests. That is, when I raise my arms up from my sides I measure 18 inches and use a 20 inch loom..."Ralph, that's exactly what I've found when I make my paddles. I'd suggest that Dan looks at his boat's width. I'd guess that the rule of thumb is off a little because the skin boats are usually a bit narrower than our plastic or glass boats. So if our boats are say, 2 inches wider than theirs, it makes sense that a wider grip will help you keep from banging your thumbs on the side of the boat. Jim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kattenbo Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 >Thanks for the responses. Brian's book provides a clear and >detailed description of how to build the paddle. I was >unfortunately ignorant of how to use the paddle, and the >rationale behind the measurements. >>Brian - how about a brief description of the basics of >holding and using a Greenland paddle in your next edition? >This would provide context for the paddle dimension >discussion. Some of us hate to follow even clear >instructions without understanding why. >>Dan Dan - cruise on over the the Qajaq USA web site at www.qajaqusa.org. From the home page, click on Greenland Paddling Techniques. Explore.Don't just stop with the video clips, make sure you scroll down the page to the articles and other info.If you get a bit hooked, you can spend time in the other sections - it's a great site.A quick summary is that the Greenland forward stroke is a very natural movement, both lower and closer to the body than the Euro stroke. And where the Euro stroke is primarily in front of the body, the Greenland stroke is more balanced and if anything flows more behind the center line. Of course the really kewl thing is that there is no single "right" stroke - there are a set of fairly consistent basics that most users incorporate, but given the variations in paddle lengths and the conditions, there is the opportunity for fitting the stroke to the person.Addicts can go on for hours, but I'll spare you and stop here. Just keep in mind that the skinny sticks are simply a lot of fun to use.KeithFull disclosure: Besides being totally addicted to Greenland paddles, I've been active in Qajaq USA since it was founded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcohn Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 >Ralph, that's exactly what I've found when I make my >paddles. I'd suggest that Dan looks at his boat's width. >I'd guess that the rule of thumb is off a little because the >skin boats are usually a bit narrower than our plastic or >glass boats. So if our boats are say, 2 inches wider than >theirs, it makes sense that a wider grip will help you keep >from banging your thumbs on the side of the boat. In my case the issue wasn't boat width, I could paddle easily with an 18 inch loom. I developed tendonitis in my wrist, which may have been caused by side to side bending. Greg Stamer reported in one of his articles that wrist pain can be caused by too short a loom. I've been doing quite well so far with the longer loom.Ralph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 >Brian - how about a brief description of the basics of >holding and using a Greenland paddle in your next edition? >This would provide context for the paddle dimension >discussion. Some of us hate to follow even clear >instructions without understanding why. That's on my list of additions, but it will probably be a while before I publish a second edition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 ...that is, measurements based on body dimensions, are meant to be a starting point. They are based on the body dimensions of an average Greenlander of times long past, so they're not always ideal for American, who may be shaped quite differently. One needs to take several things into consideration:- Are your body measurements typical for someone of your height? In my case, I have long arms that would suggest that I need a 96" paddle, which is very long for a GP. I started out with 90" paddles, which seemed more reasonable and it was a good choice.- How wide is your boat? A wider boat may require a longer loom. The general rule is that the loom should be aproximately equal to the gunwale width of the boat, if it's wider than the "arms at the sides" method recommends.- Do you have any physical limitations? You may need to make accommodations if you have limited ability to rotate your torso, or stiff shoulders, etc.- What are your personal preferences? In many cases, the only way to know for sure is to make a paddle and try it. You may also find that your preferences change over time. For example, the paddle I made while writing the book is 84" long and I find I like it better than the 90" paddles I used for years.The upside is that making GPs is fun and inexpensive. For the price of one commercial paddle, you can make a slew of GPs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kate Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Greenland paddle, eh? Good for you, Dan! I got mine from Don Beale (David gives link below) and the measurements he suggests on his website worked very well for me, except that he ended up making the paddle a little longer - about a 2" difference, to give the paddle a little more power. Mine doesn't have a shoulder between loom and blade, and I find that I prefer this - it lets you hold where it's comfy to hold, and slide across the paddle easily to extend it. I've tried the ones with shoulders and they bother my hand after awhile, so yeah, as Ralph suggested it might be better wider if you want to include shoulders. Then come to Walden and give it a try! Name your day!Kate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_f Posted August 21, 2006 Author Share Posted August 21, 2006 Thanks to eveyone for advice and encouragement. I made my first paddle this afternoon, following Brian's book. This really does go pretty fast with the right tools, even though I had to abandon my first blank due to a sneaky knot right through the width of the paddle. (Look carefully at the edge of the 2 by 4!) I couldn't find red cedar, so substituted fir. This is a bit heavier, and the splinters during rough out can be ugly, but the paddle feels strong enough to dig post holes, and doesn't look bad for a first effort. Now I'll have to see if I can use it to propel a kayak.Where have folks found red cedar in the Boston area? Boulter Plywood was out of stock.Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcohn Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 >I couldn't find red cedar, so substituted >fir. This is a bit heavier, and the splinters during rough >out can be ugly, but the paddle feels strong enough to dig >post holes, and doesn't look bad for a first effort. Now >I'll have to see if I can use it to propel a kayak. >>Where have folks found red cedar in the Boston area? >Boulter Plywood was out of stock. > I've had trouble finding cedar too, I think I've seen some a Lowes. If you have the right tools (I don't) your best bet to get decent grain is to resaw a 4x4. I've carved paddles out of pine, a bit heavy for a full length paddles, but certainly ok for a storm paddle. Fir is even heavier, not my choice for a paddle.Ralph CohnElaho DS, blue & white with yellow trim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_f Posted August 21, 2006 Author Share Posted August 21, 2006 Hi Ralph,My paddle weighs 30 to 32 ounces, certainly not a super lightweight, but not way out of range for the weights given in Brian's book. The fir is stronger than cedar, so I aimed at the finer end of blade thicknesses suggested by Brian. It should do the job for getting started. My first European paddle weighed a lot more than this!Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 We have found them at Moynihan's in Beverly, I believe. If Lowe's is anything like Home Depot you don't want to go there for wood that needs to be straight and/or clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 If you're willing to make a trek up to NH, there are a couple of good sources in the greater Nashua area, Friend Lumber in Hudson and Currier Lumber in Amherst. Jackson Lumber in Lawrence is somewhat closer to you and they have a lot of everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 I've heard of some stores stocking 2x cedar and lauan "doorskins" that some people use for building kayaks, but the 4 stores near me (3 HD's and 1 Lowes) don't carry either. Bob's right that the quality is often spotty, at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcohn Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Didn't think I needed to, but I guess I should point out that the idea is to pick through the pile and only buy the good stuff.Ralph CohnElaho DS, blue & white with yellow trim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExGMan Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 It's not really in the North Shore area, but serious woodworkers frequently trek to Downes & Reader in Stoughton. See: http://www.downesandreader.com/ John Gamel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hazard Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I have picked up some good WRC paddle stock from Yankee Pine, which is located directly across Rt 1 from New England Small Craft in Rowley. As I recall the price was ~ $25 for an 8ft 2x4.Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 >As I recall the price was ~ $25 for >an 8ft 2x4. I checked with one of my suppliers yesterday and they're getting $24 bucks for the same thing. Their 4x4's are $52 (a 4x4 yields two paddle blanks). I guess the price of cedar has taken a major hike since last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Hall Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Moynihan Lumber in (Beverly and North Reading) carries WRS 2x4s.-Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_f Posted August 26, 2006 Author Share Posted August 26, 2006 Hi Dee,Good tip! The North Reading Moynihan Lumber store is convenient to me and had a nice selection of red cedar. C+BTR 2x4x8ft for $12/ea and D+BTR 4x4x8ft for $33. They were unusually pleasant to deal with as well. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 >...They were unusually pleasant to deal with as well. >>Dan Just don't mention the war! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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