Problems with Kokatat Drysuits--are there alternatives?

[seakayakcoach]

My fiance and partner in Carpe Diem Kayaking and I both have had repeated and extensive problems with the Kokatat Drysuits last year, from the infamouse neck gaskets tearing after only a few uses to water seeping in through the fabric and seems. It seems reasonable that a suit that expensive should keep you reasonably dry after a day of paddling!

Any way, the customer service is getting poorer, as we've made repeated calls over the past couple of weeks without having our phone calls returned. This is troubling as we're in the industry and guide and instruct professionally.

So it's time to start looking seriously for alternatives. Which drysuits other than Kokatat are you using? and are there any you'd highly recommend?

I'll watch for replies here or you can e-mail me directly at mark@carpediemkayaking.com

Thanks.

Mark

[djlewis]

I wonder if Kokatat is losing it. Until now they've been the BMW of the dry suit business.

My gaskets went to mush after two years (as you may recall from the CST day near Boothbay) but that was my fault -- left the whole thing hanging out in the open for the summer -- stupid!

--David.

[jason]

>My fiance and partner in Carpe Diem Kayaking and I both have

>had repeated and extensive problems with the Kokatat

>Drysuits last year, from the infamouse neck gaskets tearing

>after only a few uses to water seeping in through the fabric

>and seems. It seems reasonable that a suit that expensive

>should keep you reasonably dry after a day of paddling!

If the gaskets are your prime issue they can be replaced with 3rd party gaskets. The gaskets are a consumable that will need to be replaced over time. Sun screen, bug stuff, heat and sunlight will make them die much sooner.

You can replace them your self, this is Brian's picture how to:

http://community.webshots.com/album/139866810INJYFc

Or go to a dive shop and they should be able to get them replaced.

If it's the fabric that is leaking that's a warranty issue with the Gortex XCR fabric which Kokatat will be the middle man. Fabric leaking doesn't sound like a Kokatat quality issue as they don't create the fabric.

If the seams are leaking I can see this being potentially a Kokatat quality issue.

>

>Any way, the customer service is getting poorer, as we've

>made repeated calls over the past couple of weeks without

>having our phone calls returned. This is troubling as we're

>in the industry and guide and instruct professionally.

I haven't talked to Kokatat since before I ordered by Dry suit and they helped me with the custom Sizing. I haven't heard of any other issues with Kokatat not returning calls. I don't know if they are ducking your calls but I don't think that being an outfitter posting this to various message boards will help any potential friction between Carpe Diem and Kokatat.

-Jason

>

>So it's time to start looking seriously for alternatives.

>Which drysuits other than Kokatat are you using? and are

>there any you'd highly recommend?

>

>I'll watch for replies here or you can e-mail me directly at

>mark@carpediemkayaking.com

>

>Thanks.

>

>Mark

[Dee Hall]

If the gaskets failed right away, that is probably the fault of the retailer. The shelf life of the gaskets is short if they aren't stored correctly and cared for with 303 or an equivalent.

I don't have any experience with their drysuits or customer service. I use a Ravenspring suit, but it is not a particularly durable suit because the fabric is a two layer WPB, not three layer.

Some people have been very happy with Stohlquist.

-Dee

[Brian Nystrom]

I've been happy with my Stohlquist dry suit, but they've stopped making anything in Gore-Tex. To me, that seems like a bad sign, since Gore has very strict quality and waterproofness standards that companys must follow if they want to use Gore fabrics. Gore provides a lifetime warranty on their fabrics. I don't know that I would want to buy a garment as expensive as a dry suit without the Gore warranty. Suits made with alternative fabrics are considerably cheaper, but if they only last 2-3 years, they're no bargain. Before I bought anything other than Gore-Tex, I'd check out the manufacturer's warranty carefully.

After six seasons of considerable use, my suit seems like it might be seeping a bit here and there, but I'm not sure if it's leakage or sweat that's making me damp. Rather than sending it back, I'll just seal the seams from the outside first (using Marine GOOP thinned with toluene) to see if that takes care of the problem. I just replaced the neck seal for the second time, which is about what I would expect; they typically last 3 years.

[seakayakcoach]

Dee

We purchased our suits directly from Kokatat and have had the gaskets replaced multiple times. Sometimes after as few as 3 uses. This is a Kokatat & their supplier issue.

I've been thinking about Stohlquist...I'll see what other responses I get. Thanks for replying.

Mark

>If the gaskets failed right away, that is probably the fault

>of the retailer.>

>Some people have been very happy with Stohlquist.

>

>-Dee

[seakayakcoach]

I'd love it if I had one that lasted 3 years instead of 3 uses. In fairness to Kokatat, my Drytop is 3 years old and is going strong. It's only been the suits that Mel and I have gotten in the last year that have had these recurring problems.

Mark

>I just replaced the neck

>seal for the second time, which is about what I would

>expect; they typically last 3 years.

[seakayakcoach]

Jason

I've heard from several professionals who have had similar problems with Kokatat in the past year, so this doesn't appear to be an isolated problem. My intent on posting this in several places is to get a better picture of two things--what other suits are people happy with and second, are other people having problems as well or is this an aberration? It's not a strategy for dealing with Kokatat. It's an effort to reach active paddlers and get more input.

Mark

>I haven't talked to Kokatat since before I ordered by Dry

>suit and they helped me with the custom Sizing. I haven't

>heard of any other issues with Kokatat not returning calls.

>I don't know if they are ducking your calls but I don't

>think that being an outfitter posting this to various

>message boards will help any potential friction between

>Carpe Diem and Kokatat.

>

>

>-Jason

[seakayakcoach]

David

Two years would be wonderful--I'd be happy with a single season, but I literally can't trust this suit to last more than a week or two of steady wear. I'm getting gaskets designed for the Coast Guard this time and hope that they work better. I'll let you know.

Mark

>I wonder if Kokatat is losing it. Until now they've been the

>BMW of the dry suit business.

>

>My gaskets went to mush after two years (as you may recall

>from the CST day near Boothbay) but that was my fault --

>left the whole thing hanging out in the open for the summer

>-- stupid!

>

>--David.

[Christa]

Hi Mark,

I had the same problem last year with my custom-ordered drysuit. The neck gasket blew after less than 6 wearings - I think it was 3 actually. I was standing around at a launch after a paddle and the gasket blew like I was the Incredible Hulk. I know the suit hadn't been sitting around a shop as it was sent directly from Kokatat to me.

As it turned out, I was paddling with Carmody and Maynard the day after it happened. I called some friends to see if I could borrow a dry suit and 2 of them reported the same issues with suits purchased around the same time. Then while John was duct-taping me into my drysuit, he said his neck gasket in his new suit blew three times before Kokatat finally agreed to replace his gasket.

I called Kokatat and explained what happened. Though they first told me that neck gaskets are not part of the warranty, they said if they discovered the latex was bad they would replace it for free. I sent the suit back to them so they could look at the latex and they did replace it for free.

There's a review of the new Stohlquist dry suit on paddling.net (http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=1779). Ben Lawry has been using a Palm drysuit for quite some time and I also have some friends who bought Palms when their Kokatat gaskets failed and they have been very pleased with them.

[wilsoj2]

This winter we sent our dry suits into Kokatat for gasket replacement and examination and they replaced my suit with a new one for the cost of the gasket replacement - they said the Gore-Tex was starting to de-laminate in a location (it was still keeping me dry).

That being said, Celia's neck gasket blew while we were in Maine last summer - within a year of getting the suit. My gaskets were clearly approaching failure after one year of use.

We have had very good response from Kokatat. Telephone seems to be their preferred communications medium.

[djlewis]

>If the gaskets are your prime issue they can be replaced

>with 3rd party gaskets. The gaskets are a consumable that

>will need to be replaced over time. Sun screen, bug stuff,

>heat and sunlight will make them die much sooner.

Not being quite the DIY-er that Brian is, I had a dive shop of high repute in Somerville replace my Kokatat gaskets. Not only did they put in a heavier-duty latex, they also chose a neck gasket sized to my own neck, using the prior gasket in its stretched/trimmed state as a guide. Result -- a heavy-duty neck gasket that fits perfectly without trimming or stretching! It's only been a year or so of moderate use for the new gaskets, but they are fine so far.

Also, I now store the suit rolled up inside its travel bag, rather than in the open light -- not even indirect light any more.

--David.

[Turner]

Mark,

You are not alone!

I purchased a custom suit from Kokatat, through NESC, before going to Greenland last year. I used it 4 times before the neck gasket blew. There was quite a run of gasket failures last summer and last fall, from other sources...

I have nonetheless found their customer service consistently excellent and they replaced ALL gaskets free of charge. Alex at NESC was instrumental in this, but I suspect they would have stepped up and replaced the neck gasket for free after they examined it.

I suspect that they've been wrestling with third party quality control. They've been a good company over the long haul. I would be quite surprised if they don't make good on your purchase. The time it takes to get this done IS frustrating. I recommend that anyone in the biz have two suits, or be prepared to soldier on without on occasion.

Did you trim or stretch these before they failed? I've always stretched mine, but I think they fail somewhat faster if you do. My sources at a few dive shops recommend trimming to fit and talcum powder, not 303, to keep them happy. And dive shops tend to carry a higher grade of these things. It is relatively easy to replace them yourself. A couple of ring forms, some aquaseal and a few clamps...10 minutes later, you are done.

ymmv,

Turner

[scamlin]

When my neck seal blew on my drytop last year just at the beginning of trip leader training, I called Kokotat on a Thursday and arranged to ship it for reconditioning and new Gortex booties.

I told them about my situation and asked if they could loan a suit. They gladly sent me a new suit overnight (literally) in time for trip leader training that weekend. I paid for shipping; they charged $300 to my credit card and refunded it when I returned the suit. I had the loaner for about 5-6 weeks at no charge (other than shipping).

Conclusions (based on a sample of one)?

Ask for a loaner rather than wait for service (though this does not address gaskets that fail on a trip).

Kokotat gives great service.

Scott

[JohnHuth]

My kokatat drysuit was delaminating. I sent it into them, and they sent it to Gore - I don't know exactly what the problem was, but the replaced the drysuit and sent me a new one. I was pretty impressed with their customer service folks.

John H.

[Rob Hazard]

My drysuit is a White's, bought a couple years ago at NESC. So far the gaskets have held up fine, but I probably don't use it as hard as most of you.

It's a cheaper suit than a Kokatat, and not Goretex, which accounts, I trust, for the little pool of moisture I find myself sitting in after a day's paddle!

Joel at NESC told me that one sure way to make your neck gasket fail is to hang the suit on a plastic coathanger. Apparently the gasket material is allergic to the styrene.

Back when I was windsurfing the standard cold weather garb was a heavy wetsuit called a sealed steamer. Not as flexible as a drysuit, but much more reliable! Reading through this thread, I'm amazed by our collective good luck that noone has had a catastrophic suit failure on the water!

Rob

[Brian Nystrom]

...which is why you see people theorizing about them but rarely hear of one. The most common type of failure is a seal tear, but they never occur when you're wearing the suit and paddling. Seals typically fail when you're putting the suit on or taking it off. While that can be a real inconvenience, at least it happens onshore, not on the water.

Yes, it's possible to rip a drysuit on rocks or other aquatic objects, but the fabrics used in them are very durable and the likelihood of that happening is extremely low, especially if one is not into rock garden play. I've scraped my suit pretty hard on rocks and barnacles several times and it's none the worse for wear.

IMO, the risk of experiencing a catastrophic dry suit failure is seriously overblown.