Paddling in wind

[BLConaway]

A question for my betters: is there a different between boats in terms of how they handle in the wind? My SO and I were paddling in Plum Island Sound, with cross winds 10-15, gusts to 20 (at least according to weather reports--I honestly don't know for sure), and I struggled all day to keep my boat going straight. My skeg is hard to deploy (a different issue that I plan to deal with), and given that I hear all the time that you should learn how to paddle without one, I though I'd just go without for the day. I spent a frustrating day constantly sweeping on one side and often not even paddling on the other.

I did notice that any time I stopped paddling, my boat would immediately turn into the wind, just like a weather vane on top of a barn. My partner would stop and his boat wouldn't move. I'm in a Wilderness Systems Tempest 170, and he's in a Looksha 17.

So obviously, I need to work on my strokes (although I really thought I had made some improvements), but is it normal when paddling in a cross wind without a skeg to only do sweep strokes on one side? I can't imagine! Any tips? What types of strokes do you do to keep your boat traveling straight in the wind?

This isn't the first time I've noticed it, but this was probably the worst. There is a HUGE different between when I use my skeg and when I don't. If I should be able to paddle without a skeg, then I've got a lot of work to do on improving my paddling. Well, that goes without saying.

Edited to add: I also understand that to many on this board, 10-15 is more of a light breeze ...

Edited September 8, 2013 by Brenda C

[kate]

What boat were you paddling? A boat with a lot of rocker, and/or a high deck, and/or swedeform (more bow than stern) will catch more wind than a low-decked fishform kayak. I own a kayak that has all the catch-the-wind characteristics - and no skeg. I don't take it out in windy weather, just too much work (awesome surfer though). I have found one thing that helps: I load the front hatch with water bottles, rocks, anything heavy to weight it down so it doesn't act like a sail. Also, sitting more forward in the cockpit helps to shift the weight toward the wind-catching bow to hold it down.

Sure, it's good to know how to paddle a kayak without the skeg, but it's there for a purpose. Why paddle all day on one side? Go ahead and deploy it.

Kate

[BLConaway]

Thanks Kate. I couldn't deploy my skeg--it needs to be fixed. I just thought it would be "good for me" to do without. As I said above, my boat is a Wilderness Systems Tempest 170.

So it sounds like some boats are more affected by the wind. That's reassuring to know. I am also interested in what types of strokes people use to deal with wind.

Like I said, I've noticed this before, but have wondered how much it's my boat and how much better technique would help.

[EEL]

Brenda:

If you don't mind a response from someone who is not one of your betters, here is my $.02 with the assumption that we are ignoring paddler skills/technique.

1. Yes kayaks vary in how they handle in the wind, they also vary in how they handle in different wind speeds and the direction of the wind relative to the bow.

2. Any given kayak will vary depending upon the physical characteristics of the paddler.

3. Any given kayak will vary depending upon how much of a load it has and how the load is distributed.

4. Any given kayak will vary depending up the speed at which it is paddled.

5. Any given kayak will ultimately not point into the wind when it is at rest, instead it, like any vessel, will lie abeam the wind if dead in the water.

6. Try using stern rudders to control serious weathercocking instead of sweeps which really are not all that effective.

7. While learning to control a kayak is valuable (which is why coaches talk to beginners about not using the skeg), kayaks have skegs for a reason and should be used when useful and needed. You can go farther and faster with the boat trimmed with a skeg than you can using corrective strokes.

8. People who use big expedition boats for unloaded day paddles may well have more trouble dealing with wind than people with a small boat suitable for day paddles.

9. IMHO it is better to have a boat that definitely weathercocks in modest to moderate wind as opposed to one that does not since in my limited experience such boats can be turned more easily in heavy wind and do not get "pinned".

Ed Lawson

Who is now going out to paddle in the wind to see if my opinions hold up.

[PeterB]

Brenda

There are some standard things you can do to deal with wind and weathercocking, you can load your boat a bit stern heavy (most of your stuff in the day and rear hatch, but not too far astern; just behind the cockpit in the day hatch or in the middle to front of the rear compartment is fine) ; Edge into the wind. Sweep strokes. Skeg. And practice! Sweep strokes and edging are actually finely tuned and with more practice you dial in the amount and kind of sweep strokes that work for you, You can't expect to go out and immediately paddle easily in strong wind. 10-15 knots is a good strong wind to paddle against or across.

Your boat turning into the wind is classic weathercocking, common to most boats,some more than others.The Tempest is known as a well balanced boat, neither too much or too little rocker and should paddle in the wind well . Your bow is under pressure from, and pinned in place by, the parting bow wave but your stern isnt ; that laminar pressure of the bow wave releases as it moves from bow to stern, so the wind is pushing your loose stern more than your tight bow, so the bow feels like its then pointing towards the wind. . if you paddle backwards you'll immediately do the opposite; your stern rather than your bow will turn into the wind.

[sidcohen]

Hi Brenda,

I too am not one of your betters. I agree with Ed's list of kayak characteristics that apply to this discussion,

The rotomolded Wilderness Systems Tempest 170 was my first boat but I abandoned it to my guests when I discovered it was a too high volume for me, and I needed a more advanced boat, and an easier car topper as I progressed in the sport. So, it is still dear to my hear with all its quirks and oil canning ;-). I also recommend them to new paddlers as an inexpensive boat that can take them much further in to the sport than a WS Tsunami for instance.

On a separate but related topic, IMHO, most kayak skegs are a breakdown waiting to happen by poor design. In addition, rotomolded Tempest WS boats are notorious for dysfunctional,easily broken, skegs and the gnarly the efforts needed to repair them; I own two of them my wife paddles a RM Tempest 165 that has the same issues I like to drill an 1/8 in hole in the trailing tip of the skeg fin and tie some Spectra cord on it so I can to pull it down with help from a friend on the water or pull it down on shore if the cable ends up kinked or or the fin is jammed in its box with a pebble. We have a bunch of the WS Tempests and Perception Essence boats were I work and that's what we do to get around continually breaking skegs. As a guide, I find that being able to deploy a skeg on the boats of novice and early beginner paddlers is a big advantage in having them not lose control of their boats on a 1/2 day tour when the breezes kick up just a notch.

Once in a while in breezy conditions I'll pull my skeg up and I practice edging my boat in moderate beam and quartering seas just for practice and safety's sake.

Paddle on Brenda!!

Sid

[Doug]

Brenda, when paddling into a very strong wind, its advised to lean forward a bit more than you normally would, use a lower angle paddle stroke (feathered of course) and use short forward strokes in front of your body rather than longer strokes.

In an emergency when a skeg cannot deploy, it's good to carry a 15-20 foot rope of sorts, tie it to your rear toggle and drag it behind you. The drag may slow you down a touch but keep you in the direction you want to go. Of course doing this has its dangers such as getting caught on something. I wouldn't suggest doing this if you were alone without the ability of someone else releasing this line if needed.

Doug

[Joyce Carpenter]

Can I add a couple of related question to the not-better-but-more-experienced herein?

How do you tell if it's wind or current that's pushing you to one side?

Should your response be any different if it's wind versus current that's pushing you to one side?

[cfolster]

Peter mentioned edging into the wind. Several times I have found myself fighting wind and edging and paddling just on one side to battle it, even with a skeg. It can get very uncomfortable . . . until one day, I read an article in Sea Kayaker magazine (sorry, don't remember which one, it was just an article about an expedition), and the author talked about purposefully sitting off center to one side of the boat - so it's like edging, but you don't have to work nearly so hard - your boat is automatically tipped, and it's quite comfortable. When I tried this, I found myself much less tired because I wasn't working at holding an edge. I've found that bit of edging will then allow me to paddle normally, with perhaps an occasional extra sweep stroke on that side - usually with gusts or waves.

[Doug]

Peter mentioned edging into the wind. Several times I have found myself fighting wind and edging and paddling just on one side to battle it, even with a skeg. It can get very uncomfortable . . . until one day, I read an article in Sea Kayaker magazine (sorry, don't remember which one, it was just an article about an expedition), and the author talked about purposefully sitting off center to one side of the boat - so it's like edging, but you don't have to work nearly so hard - your boat is automatically tipped, and it's quite comfortable. When I tried this, I found myself much less tired because I wasn't working at holding an edge. I've found that bit of edging will then allow me to paddle normally, with perhaps an occasional extra sweep stroke on that side - usually with gusts or waves.

Yes, that can be very effective. Adding to that, an additional way of shifting your weight is adding a foamed out bulkhead as a platform for your feet instead of foot pegs. This allows more options for foot placement allowing you to shift weight while still maintaining maximum contact.

[rfolster]

I also understand that to many on this board, 10-15 is more of a light breeze ...

We actually joke that it is a "fresh breeze" since it can blow the eventual stink off any multi-day-camping paddler. That level wind is solidly in the Level-3 paddler zone, and anything more than that would make for Level-4 conditions (see Paddling Levels under the Events & Planning menu at the top of the message board).

There are very few members who can paddle in those kind of winds without using a skeg or rudder, and have even gone to lengths to remove there skegs completely. When skegs were first introduced to kayaking some years ago, they were scoffed at, ridiculed, and dismissed. Now, trying to find a mid or high end boat without one is difficult.

My suggestion would be to fix the skeg and try to paddle without it, but use it when needed.

[Nancy Hill]

Here's a link to a good article about weathercocking by Greg Stamer (he talks about a Greenland kayak, but the facts apply to any kayak): http://www.gregstamer.com/2012/04/22/techinques-to-avoid-broaching-in-greenland-kayak

-Nancy

[Deb Millar]

Hi Brenda,

I'm pretty much in agreement with what has been posted, and it's all good advice. Some boats DO weathercock more than others, but there is absolutely NO SHAME in using a skeg; it's just one more tool in the tool box of paddling.

In fact, in the years I've been paddling no certified coach, whether BCU or ACA, has ever urged anyone in any class I've taken to not use their skeg because it's "good for them" not to. Paddling is supposed to be fun and safe, and getting frustrated and being miserable because one thinks there is some shame involved in deploying the skeg, is counterproductive. There are times when the skeg jams or the cable breaks internally that will require you to use your edging skills, but, again, the skeg serves a valuable purpose. It is not "training wheels" nor should someone be made to feel they're some sort of "poor paddler" for using this valuable tool.

As for skegs being "scoffed at" when they where first introduced: I'm not sure when this occurred in the history of kayaking, but we own two 1991 Pintails with ocean cockpits and both came equipped with highly functional, "modern" looking rope skews. There's been discussions about rope versus slider skegs going on for years, the theory being that the rope controlled version is easy for field repair, with advocates of both, but that's the only "issue" I'v heard of in the time I've been paddling.

So follow the advice here, especially about loading your boat to maximize trim, and continue to work on your edging skills as they are so vital towards good, safe paddling.

And, perhaps most importantly, at least in my POV, get that skeg fixed.

Deb M.

[BLConaway]

Thank you all! I really appreciate your thoughtful posts and reassurance. I've actually been paddling off and on for several years, but more the last 3 since we got our boats. I keep learning how much more there is to learn! Fun stuff, if sometimes intimidating.

Thanks Ed; I'll have to look up stern rudders--not sure I know that stroke? (Or didn't know the name).

Sid, that was exactly why I bought the boat and so far it's been doing what I had hoped. Looking forward to growing out of it! BTW, what's oil canning?

Had the skeg fixed last year, had it out twice, and the cable promptly got kinked when some friends brought by boat onshore from a dock (I had neglected to put it up).

I drilled the hole and added the cord on Sunday.

[sidcohen]

Hi Brenda,

I'm glad you added a cord to your skeg fin, it can be pretty helpful. Beware though, they wear off quickly even with Spectra cord. One bit of advice that you might find helpful, is that if or when you drag your boat up on a beach or ramp, drag it by the cockpit combing not by the bow handle. This puts less wear on the cord and my keep pebbles and sand out of your skeg box too.

Oil canning, in the context in which I used it, is when a rotomolded polymer boats get large shallow depressions in the hull. This usually comes from leaving it out in the hot sun and sometimes that is not even necessary for it to happen with this type of boat construction. Also having it tied tightly on a trailer, or roof rack when its real hot and sunny out can do the trick. Composite boats don't usually oil can. I just accept it as a trade off for the low coast and maintenance of a plastic boat. I have 4 of them in my family fleet, Including a bright yellow WS Tempest 170.

Paddle On Brenda!!

Sid

[EEL]

Brenda:

Upon reflection I believe it would have been more accurate to have said the stern rudder is better than a sweep stroke for turning the boat after you have been unable to hold a course due to weathercocking since it is easier to move the stern than the bow for the reasons Peter gave. I tend to throw one in earlier to hold a course, but that is just my style and likely influenced by my using a GP and having to cope with a viciously weathercocking SOF. You should explore what works for you.

The trick is to not let the boat get "away" from you and to catch deviations early so the corrections are smaller and easier as Stamer discusses. Lots of good advice here about being able to shift weight to edge and being able to tune edging with sweeps to keep boat on course. You may find once you can hold a course more than not by edging the less necessary sweep strokes will be. I find since a sweep is less powerful it can reduce the turning effect of the edging as it slows the boat compared to a regular stroke. So I tend more often to use a regular stroke, but with more "force" on the edged or downwind side. Again, just what works for me and may not for you.

Suggestion. Go mess around for a couple of hours with your boat in some decent wind as in consistent whitecaps and play with various stuff to see what works for you. You will learn far more and of more value than any amount of abstract forum content (not that it won't point you in good directions).

Ed Lawson

[JohnHuth]

I have a Wilderness Systems 170, and often paddle without the skeg. With a quartering wind from behind, weather cocking can be a problem. Sweep strokes on one side and short straight strokes on the other are what I do - pretty simple. The waves can push you, too, and then I'll use some stern rudder to correct.

I think the issue is that we all suffer from this to some degree, and just get used to it, but one side of your torso gets a workout and the other doesn't. I often lean forward to 'help' the trim.

Mainly, the bow is getting locked by the bow wave, and the stern is free to pivot in the wind. A skeg can counter the pivoting, but lacking that, it's just paddle hard on one side and light on the other, and use leaning to help the turn.

[Suz]

A question for my betters: is there a different between boats in terms of how they handle in the wind? My SO and I were paddling in Plum Island Sound, with cross winds 10-15, gusts to 20 (at least according to weather reports--I honestly don't know for sure), and I struggled all day to keep my boat going straight. My skeg is hard to deploy (a different issue that I plan to deal with), and given that I hear all the time that you should learn how to paddle without one, I though I'd just go without for the day. I spent a frustrating day constantly sweeping on one side and often not even paddling on the other.

I did notice that any time I stopped paddling, my boat would immediately turn into the wind, just like a weather vane on top of a barn. My partner would stop and his boat wouldn't move. I'm in a Wilderness Systems Tempest 170, and he's in a Looksha 17.

So obviously, I need to work on my strokes (although I really thought I had made some improvements), but is it normal when paddling in a cross wind without a skeg to only do sweep strokes on one side? I can't imagine! Any tips? What types of strokes do you do to keep your boat traveling straight in the wind?

This isn't the first time I've noticed it, but this was probably the worst. There is a HUGE different between when I use my skeg and when I don't. If I should be able to paddle without a skeg, then I've got a lot of work to do on improving my paddling. Well, that goes without saying.

Edited to add: I also understand that to many on this board, 10-15 is more of a light breeze ...

Brenda,

Here is some more 'food for thought'. Surprised nobody else mentioned it.

Try this experiment. Find an area where you have protection from the wind but able to paddle where you are exposed to the wind. Where there is no wind, see what happens when you paddle normally with even strokes. Now paddle out where the wind is... maintain those even strokes. Without a skeg and without corrective strokes, your boat should eventually end up pointed up into the wind. Now, STOP paddling. See what happens. You should find that your boat ends up BROADSIDE to the wind. It should not be weathercocking or pointing into the wind if you are not paddling it.

A boat will ONLY weather cock if it is under power/ forward movement (or backward if you are going to opposite way in wind...).

You said in your original post that when you STOPPED paddling, it pointed into the wind. That is in fact what it 'should' do to some extant but only when you are underway, not stopped. A (properly loaded) stopped boat does not have it's stern nor bow locked in so therefore the wind will eventually push it sideways so that the boat will be pushed across the water. That same thing will happen in very strong winds if the paddler doesn't have the strength/power to get some sort of bow wake forming to lock the bow in which causes the stern to 'slip' that causes the weather cocking.

I wonder if you remember how you loaded your boat. If you loaded your boat bow heavy, it may have caused it.

Best thing to do would be to spend time when the wind is up and play around with all turns. Doesn't have to be on the ocean where in addition to the wind, you would also have waves and current. Just play around with the wind and practice all turns, upwind, down wind, bow rudders, stern draws... Find what is effective without the skeg. Understand what the boat does and why. Not so that you can do 'penance' and paddle without a skeg, but so that you have an understanding of what is going on with the boat. Then practice all the same things with the skeg. Figure out when to use the skeg and when not to.

To build up your obliques so you can use them when necessary, practice going straight but edging. This requires you to use correctional strokes with a paddle.

Like other paddlers here, I use a skeg when necessary. Some boats are more skeg dependent than others... just like some paddlers are!

[Lallen]

Hi Brenda,

A couple of other tricks to try coping with weathercocking in wind that I don't think have been mentioned in this thread- you can move your hands off center on the paddle so the paddle shaft is longer on the side you are sweeping. If you have enough room in the cockpit, you can also shift your butt so you are closer to the side you are edging.

And I echo what everyone else has said. YES different boats behave differently in wind, and skegs are there for a reason. That reason is weather cocking.. The only reason instructors encourage not using a skeg in classes is so one doesn't become overly reliant on them without developing other boat handling skills (which can be even more of an issue in boats with rudders). The skeg is a tool, and a good one to have in your box, to use as needed. It's useful to have as many tools in that box as you can, since you might need to employ all of them at some point.

[djlewis]

Hi Brenda, A couple of other tricks to try coping with weathercocking in wind that I don't think have been mentioned in this thread...

One more trick when there is chop or swell (which there usually is in wind)... Adjust the timing of your stroke (by accelerating or delaying slightly) to catch the "fat" part of the wave on the upwind side with every or most strokes. That turns the bow more effectively downwind because it's up on the wave and thus a bit more out of the water and partly released. It may also give the paddle a tad more purchase on the upwind side.

[Brian Nystrom]

Oil canning, in the context in which I used it, is when a rotomolded polymer boats get large shallow depressions in the hull. This usually comes from leaving it out in the hot sun and sometimes that is not even necessary for it to happen with this type of boat construction. Also having it tied tightly on a trailer, or roof rack when its real hot and sunny out can do the trick. Composite boats don't usually oil can. I just accept it as a trade off for the low coast and maintenance of a plastic boat. I have 4 of them in my family fleet,

Actually, that's not "oil canning" at all, it's heat deformation, which as you state, is pretty much unique to rotomolded polyethylene boats.

Oil-canning is when the hull flexes and pops inward under pressure, then pops back out when the pressure is released, like an old-fashioned oil can - hence the name. it's most common on boats with flat panels or wide, curved hulls. Boats with more flexible hulls - like many polyethylene kayaks - are also more prone to oil canning, but it happens to composite boats as well. Many rotomolded boats are too rigid for oil canning to be an issue. It's more a function of design and construction than material.

[kate]

Actually, that's not "oil canning" at all, it's heat deformation, which as you state, is pretty much unique to rotomolded polyethylene boats.

Oil-canning is when the hull flexes and pops inward under pressure, then pops back out when the pressure is released, like an old-fashioned oil can - hence the name. it's most common on boats with flat panels or wide, curved hulls. Boats with more flexible hulls - like many polyethylene kayaks - are also more prone to oil canning, but it happens to composite boats as well. Many rotomolded boats are too rigid for oil canning to be an issue. It's more a function of design and construction than material.

I didn't know that! I think the term is commonly used to describe heat deformation, whether rightly so or not. I've never heard it used to refer to the phenomenon you describe, but it certainly makes sense.