Unsafe VHF Design

[leong]

The button to select CG channel 16 is supposed to be for getting to C16 quickly in emergencies. However, it doesn't work when channel lock is set. In an emergency you must first unlock ... and you might not  remember how.

This happened to me the other day. I wanted to hail a mega yacht heading towards me. I forgot how to cancel the lock (You Push [H/L•LOCK] for 1 second to cancel the lock). I was able to avoid a collision but I had a nice surf ride off of his stern wave.

Do the VHF designers take stupid pills?

Edited January 30, 2019 by leong

[kattenbo]

Hi man - been a while.  What make model is the VHF you're posting about.

 

Keith

[jason]

It's designed to prevent you from transmitting on any channel by mistake.   Thus the lock as used would be working as designed.  If you don't like the lock you don't need to use it.

I am sure that having a lock has saved countless hours of channel 16 from being inaccessible  due to VHF's transmitting by mistake.

 

[leong]

On 1/24/2019 at 9:28 PM, kattenbo said:

Hi man - been a while.  What make model is the VHF you're posting about.

 

Keith

Icom M73. I think all hand held VHF's have the unsafe design of the lock preventing an immediate switch to channel 16.

One of our last paddles (last century) together about 10 of us started from Manchester Harbor. By the time I reached Rockport everyone had dropped out and I continued on to circle Cape Ann counter clockwise and back to Manchester. Bob Burnett drove around the course looking for me. I think he met me back at the put-in. Both of my wrists were sore for a week.

[leong]

20 hours ago, jason said:

It's designed to prevent you from transmitting on any channel by mistake.   Thus the lock as used would be working as designed.  If you don't like the lock you don't need to use it.

I am sure that having a lock has saved countless hours of channel 16 from being inaccessible  due to VHF's transmitting by mistake.

 

You've got it backwards, Jason. I'm not against the channel lock. I like it. I'm against the design that when the channel lock is set the channel 16 emergency button is disabled. In an emergency you should be able to get to channel 16 ASAP; i.e., you shouldn't need to take the time to unlock (and you may not remember how to do it) to make an emergency call. 

As I said, it's a very stupid and unsafe design.

PS

It's freezing today in Southeast FL (high of about 62 and very windy). Went pedaling instead of paddling.

[jason]

It's just like our fire radios and a good design.   It prevents the channel from being used/blocked by mistake and can save lives.   Unlocking the radio is minimal effort and is quick enough even when locked as +- 1 second in kayaking shouldn't make a diffrence.  

The channel 16 emergency button is the on likely to be hit when in your bag or if it's stuffed into a hatch, thus the lock makes a lot of sense.   You might do monthly radio drills if you find it hard to manage.  

-Jason

 

[leong]

2 hours ago, jason said:

It's just like our fire radios and a good design.   It prevents the channel from being used/blocked by mistake and can save lives.   Unlocking the radio is minimal effort and is quick enough even when locked as +- 1 second in kayaking shouldn't make a diffrence.   

The channel 16 emergency button is the on likely to be hit when in your bag or if it's stuffed into a hatch, thus the lock makes a lot of sense.   You might do monthly radio drills if you find it hard to manage.  

-Jason

 

Jason, with all due respect, you're wrong. Yes, a second or two doesn't matter. But what if you don't remember which is the unlock button? Or what if you've capsized in a storm (ask Keith) and are bouncing around in the water and you want to put out a Mayday call ASAP and can't find the damn unlock button or don't know the procedure for the radio you borrowed that day.

I’ve never heard of anyone locking their radio to, say, channel 72 only because they're afraid that it might accidentally switch it to channel 16. That’s not the purpose of the locking a radio to channel 72. It’s to prevent it from accidentally switching to any other channel including 16. But if you need to go to 16 then the emergency channel 16 button should work whether the radio is locked or not!

It’s not a catastrophe if you accidentally use channel 16. At worst, the CG will shoo you off. But it could be a catastrophe if you can’t get to channel 16. That’s what fail safe designs are for; i.e., to prevent catastrophes.

If the radio is in your hatch or in a duffel bag it wouldn't be on. When the radio isn't on pressing the emergency channel 16 button will do nothing at all.

-Leon

Edited January 29, 2019 by leong

[rfolster]

Leon, with all due respect as well, an argument could be made that a radio should be locked on channel 16 and only unlocked and switched to another channel when needed (and therefore not under urgency).  Regulations mandate that all vessels equipped with VHF communications are required to monitor channel 16, and therefore makes it reasonable that we monitor 16 as well.  If your radio had been set up that way, you would have been able to hail the mega-yacht for what that would have been worth.  By your description, there would not have been any time for them to do anything, so just getting yourself out of the way sounded like the prudent thing to do.

[leong]

4 hours ago, rfolster said:

Leon, with all due respect as well, an argument could be made that a radio should be locked on channel 16 and only unlocked and switched to another channel when needed (and therefore not under urgency).  Regulations mandate that all vessels equipped with VHF communications are required to monitor channel 16, and therefore makes it reasonable that we monitor 16 as well.  If your radio had been set up that way, you would have been able to hail the mega-yacht for what that would have been worth.  By your description, there would not have been any time for them to do anything, so just getting yourself out of the way sounded like the prudent thing to do.

I think you started a new thread, Robert. One for those kayakers that help the CG monitor channel 16 for distress calls. I don’t even have my radio on, unless I’m paddling with a group. 

My almost encounter with a mega-yacht was just an anecdote that served as a reminder of the poor design of most handheld VHFs. Nothing more, nothing less. Clearly there are circumstance where not being able to get to 16 using the button would be a problem.

PS

When you lock the channel on the Icom M73 it stays locked even after turning the radio off and back on again. Also note that the channel lock button is labeled H/L and is a dual purpose button;, it selects high, middle or low power when pushed, unless you hold it down and then it toggles between lock on and lock off. Try and remember all that when you're in the water in an emergency situation, especially if it's a borrowed VHF radio.

Edited January 29, 2019 by leong

[Dan Foster]

It's a little unfair to call it "channel lock", when it's actually a described as a keypad lock that locks out the keypad buttons. The Icom M73 manual says: (pasting from PDF, some of the graphics didn't come through)

■This function electronically locks all keys (except for [?] and [?]) to prevent accidental channel changes and function access. [I'm guessing volume up/down are the two [?] keys]
➥  Push [lock key] for 1 second to turn the lock function ON or OFF.
Hold down for 1 second
[lock icon] Appears while the lock function is in use.

http://www.icomamerica.com/en/products/marine/handhelds/m73/default.aspx

 

My Standard Horizon HX870 has a dedicated lock key, with the same functionality and description in the manual. It displays KEY LOCK across the entire screen when you hit any button (except Vol up/down, Squelch and Push-to-talk) while locked, including 16/S. I didn't try hitting the DSC Distress button on the side while locked. Mine also remembers the key lock when powered off, and flashes it across the entire screen on startup and when pressing any key.

Maybe the takeaway from all of this is that if we're going to take advantage of the key lock so we can stuff the radio into a PFD pocket, we need to commit the unlock sequence to muscle memory so it becomes automatic.

[leong]

>> Maybe the takeaway from all of this is that if we're going to take advantage of the key lock so we can stuff the radio into a PFD pocket, we need to commit the unlock sequence to muscle memory so it becomes automatic. 

I have no argument with anything you said, Dan. But my one and only point (or takeaway) is that the channel 16 key should (as described in the Icom M73 manual) select Channel 16 when pushed. But it doesn't if the key pad lock is on. I don't care that it doesn't say it. I care that it shouldn't be that way for safety. If the VHF was designed according to fail safe criteria, the channel 16 key should always take you to channel 16, no matter what. Otherwise, it's like an aircraft autopilot with a switch to disable it that doesn't work under certain conditions.

No way around it, it's a stupid design! And it would doubly stupid if your DSC distress button wouldn't work while in key lock!! I bet it does. Someone will eventually sue if it doesn't.

BTW: There aren't volume up/down keys on the Icom M73. The volume control is a knob that also turns the unit on and off.

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by leong

[EEL]

Leon:

Congratulations on another successful troll.  It took awhile, but eventually you succeeded.

Ed Lawson

[leong]

6 hours ago, EEL said:

Leon:

Congratulations on another successful troll.  It took awhile, but eventually you succeeded.

Ed Lawson

Now isn't that special, Ed. I appreciate it.

I trolled for tarpon for three hours and caught just one barracuda. Not very successful, but it was fun.

Now that you got that off your chest, do you anything constructive to say on the topic?

Edited January 31, 2019 by leong

[leong]

Note: Posted here and elsewhere.

Okay, would someone please answer my question: Say you're in dualwatch or tri-watch or scan mode with, say, channel 72 included in addition to 16 (and perhaps 09 and other channels). Now you want to contact the pod on channel 72. How do you get to channel 72 without using the channel up (or down key) to move to channel 72 before pressing the transmit button? I think there is no way to do it. If you just press the transmit button you might transmit on 16 or 09 or 72 (or what ever other channel in the scan set) with equal probability. And that's why you need to set the channel lock to 72. So, that's the heart of the matter; i.e. if you have the VHF locked on 72 the emergency channel 16 button is disabled. So, you're faced with the additional step of unlocking before calling Mayday. What a stupid way to design VHF handheld radios.

[rfolster]

Leon, I don't consider the dual-watch function to be an unsafe design as much as just a user error.  Admittedly, I am not as familiar with the function as well as I should, but I understand that you identify a primary and secondary channels to be watched.  The radio will automatically transmit on the primary channel unless otherwise directed to, which would require unlocking the radio.  This is why they call the feature "watch", as you are only listening to the multiple channels, not actually using multiple channels.

My approach to using VHF radios in general is that they are first and foremost a safety device, with a large margin for error (low strength, short range, battery life, etc).  I personally do not use them to communicate within a group that I am traveling with because I believe in paddling within voice range of others within the group.  If there is another group on the water that I might want to meet up with (for lunch or something), then I might establish a channel to attempt to reach them.  However, you need to understand that one purpose of channel 16 is to hail other vessels to establish contact and confirm use of another channel to continue the conversation.  I also believe that, if there is enough of an urgency to contact another group without enough time to unlock the radio and change to an alternate channel, then the situation probably warrants broadcast on channel 16 anyway.

However, your race-training situation is different, and I can understand and respect that.  This is basically a risk-assessment task.  You might need to determine just how much you need to communicate with the others and decide which channel will be your primary.  Again, my personal preference in that situation might be to still use channel 16 for establishing contact and changing channels since I would basically be paddling solo if racing at different speeds.  If something were to go seriously wrong, I don't want any hesitation to get on channel 16 and let the world know that I need help.

On another note, has anyone encountered a different type of issue with the dual-watch feature where it will cut out of a broadcast every # of seconds for the brief moment to "watch" the other channel?  My radio can actually monitor up to three channels, which I thought would be good.  I could monitor channel 16, a weather channel, and a commercial channel for the group to use like 72.  However, when I experimented with it by listening to a weather broadcast, every 3 seconds or so it would cut out as it scanned 16 and 72.  It only takes maybe a half second or so to do this, but every three seconds I would miss a word or two of the broadcast.  This would also happen when listening to a conversation on 72 or a mayday call on 16.  I believe THIS to be a real design flaw since it should lock on a channel when there is a broadcast being received.  For this reason, I have stopped using the function all together and reverted to my methods listed above.

[Dan Foster]

I just turned on my Standard Horizon HX870 and confirmed that it works as Rob describes:

1. pressing Transmit while in Tri/Dual Watch mode always transmits on the selected primary channel. Leon, did you actually test this behavior with your VHF?

2. listening to weather channel while in Tri-watch causes an audible dropout every two seconds while the receiver momentarily monitors the other channel. Given that they'd have to put an entire second RF receiver into each radio to allow an uninterrupted background scan for traffic on the other channels, this seems like a reasonable design tradeoff.

Receiving: I can monitor ch 72 and 16 and 9 constantly with Tri-watch, or disengage it to only monitor 72.

Transmitting: Always transmits on 72, unless I press 16/S key to switch to 16. Pressing again switches back to 72. If the keylock is engaged, I have to press that first, and then press 16/S.

That doesn't seem like too much to keep track of.

I would welcome a laminated cheat sheet with best practices for radio settings and channel presets, recommended use on group paddles, a template for distress calls, etc.     

[leong]

4 hours ago, Dan Foster said:

I just turned on my Standard Horizon HX870 and confirmed that it works as Rob describes:

1. pressing Transmit while in Tri/Dual Watch mode always transmits on the selected primary channel. Leon, did you actually test this behavior with your VHF?

2. listening to weather channel while in Tri-watch causes an audible dropout every two seconds while the receiver momentarily monitors the other channel. Given that they'd have to put an entire second RF receiver into each radio to allow an uninterrupted background scan for traffic on the other channels, this seems like a reasonable design tradeoff.

Receiving: I can monitor ch 72 and 16 and 9 constantly with Tri-watch, or disengage it to only monitor 72.

Transmitting: Always transmits on 72, unless I press 16/S key to switch to 16. Pressing again switches back to 72. If the keylock is engaged, I have to press that first, and then press 16/S.

That doesn't seem like too much to keep track of.

I would welcome a laminated cheat sheet with best practices for radio settings and channel presets, recommended use on group paddles, a template for distress calls, etc.     

Robert and Dan, thanks.

I didn't say dualwatch is an unsafe design. I said the lock channel mode is unsafe because the emergency channel 16 button doesn't release it.

My race training use of locking channel 72 is not for emergencies. You might say it’s to determine if there is an emergency or if there is a change of plans. For example, I paddle through some rough water in a cut between some rocks and when I exit, I don’t see my partner following me. So, I call to make sure everything is okay. If there is no response I back track to see if there is a problem. If there is a problem that I can’t handle, then and only then would I call the CG. And I'd like to be able to do that by pressing the channel 16 emergency button (without having to unlock first).

I just tested dual watch. Yes, if channel 16 is quiet, pressing xmit does transmit on 72; however, if the receiver is in the middle of listening to a transmission on 16, pressing xmit transmits on 16. That's not as bad as I thought it was, at least for me, but not for the CG. It took a while to demonstrate this because there wasn't any traffic on 16 for over half an hour.

I'd still prefer a design where I could lock 72 and the channel 16 emergency button would release the lock and switch to channel 16. It’s as simple as that.

-Leon

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by leong

[jason]

On our fire radios we have a receive only channel that we lock our radios on to.   That way if one would like to transmit one unlocks the radio and then swaps over to "FD Primary".

 

Just like the Marine radios  when one of the radios is transmitting it take over the channel and prevents others from using it.      Each of our radios has a code that's transmitting to allow us to know what town is causing the issue (It will  take over the repeaters for the county).   If a radio is stuck then everybody in the department starts getting called at home and on their cells.  (I haven't been the one to cause the problem yet).

 

It's much safer to know how to use your radio,  if we can manage the small buttons with large gloves you can manage to figure it out too.

 

-Jason